Ford Australia’s record $10 million fine for “unconscionable conduct” over dodgy transmissions

[roddy1960]

Holden with a huge issue with Colorado oil usage , some use 3 litres per 1000 kms and can't be fixed.. Mercedes AMG C63 are falling apart from brand new and Mercedes do little or nothing to solve the issues , lets not get started on the other crap from Europe ..
Most if not all manufacturers including those from Korea and Japan will have early or long term recurring troubles . Just how it is .

Everybody looks through different coloured glasses and these are the ones I look through from my perspective.

I'll stick to my quite reliable and relatively easy to fix and pretty basic Falcons thank you that and don't look like boxes on wheels that you need to read the badges to see who makes them..

Those that want to buy these new small capacity turbo engined , fancy tech transmissioned , gizmo laden vehicles then it's your call and choice . For me and others it's K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid ) I'm a KISS fan these days.

Bottom line for me is this . I'm having a great run out of my Falcons so why would I want to join the queue to buy a box. I'm not alone either . We used to build some pretty good KISS cars, inherently reliable and very fun and passion inspiring and we should be proud of that fact . I am.

[roddy1960]

This bloke bought a brand spanking new Mercedes C63 AMG Biturbo . Had it a few weeks , drove it in a bit of rain and it was written off (if you watch the follow up vids with the saga that took place with insurance etc ) . Written off !!!!!!... He then got another one with dodgey electronic connections I believe and then other less crucial issues thankfully for him . Maybe not to the extent of VW's engines and Ford's ridiculously stupid new transmission failures but it puts it into perspective that AMG Merc's have expensive fails too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKaKeEizu5I ..

Apparently on further reading with fails on these C63's the brakes are also very problematic and regularly give out high pitched squealing way too often and not easy to fix .

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

Holden with a huge issue with Colorado oil usage , some use 3 litres per 1000 kms and can't be fixed.. Mercedes AMG C63 are falling apart from brand new and Mercedes do little or nothing to solve the issues , lets not get started on the other crap from Europe ..
Most if not all manufacturers including those from Korea and Japan will have early or long term recurring troubles . Just how it is .

Everybody looks through different coloured glasses and these are the ones I look through from my perspective.

I'll stick to my quite reliable and relatively easy to fix and pretty basic Falcons thank you that and don't look like boxes on wheels that you need to read the badges to see who makes them..

Those that want to buy these new small capacity turbo engined , fancy tech transmissioned , gizmo laden vehicles then it's your call and choice . For me and others it's K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid ) I'm a KISS fan these days.

Bottom line for me is this . I'm having a great run out of my Falcons so why would I want to join the queue to buy a box. I'm not alone either . We used to build some pretty good KISS cars, inherently reliable and very fun and passion inspiring and we should be proud of that fact . I am.

See i can see it from both sides. From where i sit falcon build quality has gotten a lot worse. I mean my FG ute rattles like a bloody freight train the build quality is pretty poor compared to the old AU falcons i had many years ago along with the 2 Focus ST's i had aswell. Your right they are very basic, very very basic imo for a a car of its age. And if they didnt make a turbo model i wouldnt have bought one!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

This bloke bought a brand spanking new Mercedes C63 AMG Biturbo . Had it a few weeks , drove it in a bit of rain and it was written off (if you watch the follow up vids with the saga that took place with insurance etc ) . Written off !!!!!!... He then got another one with dodgey electronic connections I believe and then other less crucial issues thankfully for him . Maybe not to the extent of VW's engines and Ford's ridiculously stupid new transmission failures but it puts it into perspective that AMG Merc's have expensive fails too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKaKeEizu5I ..

Apparently on further reading with fails on these C63's the brakes are also very problematic and regularly give out high pitched squealing way too often and not easy to fix .

And that's why people buy second hand german brands at their peril,
If your ZF trans fails be prepared for the big could shoulder on warranty
because German engineering is so good it can't possibly be defective..

[jpd80]

Back on Topic, there's about 10,500 cars affected in the Powershift judgement that
were built between 2010 and 2015 What's the bet that most of the older ones are
now on second or third owners who are not aware of proceedings against Ford

[In Focus]

If the car is driving as it should, why would they care?

[roddy1960]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Back on Topic, there's about 10,500 cars affected in the Powershift judgement that
were built between 2010 and 2015 What's the bet that most of the older ones are
now on second or third owners who are not aware of proceedings against Ford

One of the young teachers at work just inherited her father in law's car after he handed in his licence . It's a 2013 Ford Fiesta . Has 78,000 kms on it because I asked her the other day . Without alarming her I asked her same time how she likes it . "Awesome " was the answer she game me and also told me it's returning about 6 litres per 100 kms even when her husband who is a beekeeper drives it .He's a bit of a hoon apparently according to her.

They picked it up about a month ago but she hasn't driven it until a couple of weeks ago because it had to go over the pits and be re-registered as the rego period had expired . By the sounds of it she has no issues at all and it is the auto . I kept my big mouth shut as not to worry her. Claire is no dummy so if it is the troublesome tranny and was playing up she'd be aware of it I'm guessing and it would have been found on the roadworthy . Beaut little car and in great nick ..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

One of the young teachers at work just inherited her father in law's car after he handed in his licence . It's a 2013 Ford Fiesta . Has 78,000 kms on it because I asked her the other day . Without alarming her I asked her same time how she likes it . "Awesome " was the answer she game me and also told me it's returning about 6 litres per 100 kms even when her husband who is a beekeeper drives it .He's a bit of a hoon apparently according to her.

They picked it up about a month ago but she hasn't driven it until a couple of weeks ago because it had to go over the pits and be re-registered as the rego period had expired . By the sounds of it she has no issues at all and it is the auto . I kept my big mouth shut as not to worry her. Claire is no dummy so if it is the troublesome tranny and was playing up she'd be aware of it I'm guessing and it would have been found on the roadworthy . Beaut little car and in great nick ..

Speaking to a tech in the USA about the issues a few years back,
he said that the early issue was gearbox oil leaking from front seal
onto clutch plates and also juddering of clutch plates from build up
of clutch dust inside the housing. The next is heat of the gearbox
eventually fails the power control module that mounted directly to
the trans case.

Ford US has just stopped making Focus at Michigan but reports are
that the later version behave a lot better than the earlier stuff so
maybe Ford has found a way of calming it and improving time
before problems surface....

So at the very minimum, whatever has been done there should
also be applied to our cars.

[Adamz Ghia]

The way some of you blokes are talking makes me wonder how the Falcon ever managed to clock beyond 10,000km.

Go to the ACCC website and have a read how many recalls there have been for ALL brands.

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by happy1

Hi,
There are currently 9 manufacturers of DCT / DSG transmissions.
Some of these uses wet clutches, some of these uses dry clutches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-clutch_transmission

Here is a previous thread on this forum about the technical details:
https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11410755

It seems the main problem for Fiesta / Focus is the design using dry clutches, (cheaper than wet clutches) and they are electrically actuated rather than hydraulic.

Unsure which DCT is in our new Megane GT (wet or dry ) but it is well umm interesting to say the least. In stop start city traffic and reverse gear it is woefull... the worst trans on any car I’ve ever owned. ( clunky , jerky , Indecisive. )

In highway driving and moderate traffic and under WOT it is the best trans experience on any car I’ve ever owned. Fast to change, hold gears well in turns and is intuitive in using throttle input to guess what you need.
It’s positively a schizophrenic experience.

I see the new Megane RS has gone to a 6 speed DCT in the auto instead of the schizophrenic 7 speed on the Megane so perhaps they have realised the error of their ways.

I’ll be referring on my experience to Renault HQ soon on its 1st service.

Interesting thing here is that you don’t get a sense of the nature of these issues on a test drive , so I totally understand how people get caught out. As these DCT’s “bed in” they begin to manifest their bad behaviour.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

The way some of you blokes are talking makes me wonder how the Falcon ever managed to clock beyond 10,000km.

Go to the ACCC website and have a read how many recalls there have been for ALL brands.

No one has mentioned Falcon, did you mean Focus?

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by Bluey-GT

Unsure which DCT is in our new Megane GT (wet or dry ) but it is well umm interesting to say the least. In stop start city traffic and reverse gear it is woefull... the worst trans on any car I’ve ever owned. ( clunky , jerky , Indecisive. )

In highway driving and moderate traffic and under WOT it is the best trans experience on any car I’ve ever owned. Fast to change, hold gears well in turns and is intuitive in using throttle input to guess what you need.
.

This sums up why DCT's are not suited to cars that are more often than not used in stop start city type driving.

In a Porsche, Lambo or any high performance car, a DCT's drawbacks can be accepted because of the performance gains they bring and may only be noticed 10% of the time. In a hatchback that spends its time in the city, super fast gear changes are pointless, meanwhile the owner has to suffer the drawbacks 90% of the time.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by JG33

I don't understand why some manufacturers continue to offer theses type of transmissions.

It's simple.
Firstly, you must remember that most of their promotional spiel is BS. "Improvements" they promote as benefits are usually nothing of the kind.

The planetary gear is a wonderful piece of engineering. Unfortunately they are also big and heavy. Bad enough when everyone was driving a 4 spd, but with marketing demanding 6 or more, and small cars becoming more powerful, it was simply becoming impossible to shoehorn proper automatics into small FWD cars.
Doing away with the planetary gears not only made the trannies more compact, but also a lot cheaper and lighter to boot.
The rationale being that with modern electronics, a computer can shift the gears and clutches better than a human, and match the smoothness of a planetary gear.

The "1st gen" weren't so bad in that they still used hydraulic actuators (as in a conventional auto) which at least gave smooth shifts. But again to save weight and money, the smaller boxes changed to electric servos, giving faster but rougher shifts.

The biggest challenge was to emulate an auto's ability to crawl at low speed.
Again, in the early boxes, the clutches were wet, operating in hydraulic fluid. This allowed controlled slippage, and allowed the clutch unit to function as a de-facto torque convertor. Again, in the newer smaller units, they did away with the hydraulic fluid and used dry clutches. To crawl at sub-idle speed required the dry clutch to pulse, producing the trade-mark shuddering.

Ironically, it is about the way you drive the car. Unfortunately for Ford, they effectively sold these as a replacement for fully automatics, and when owners tried to drive them as such, it didn't work.

And yes, I'm sure they did know quite early that they had a problem. But what to do whilst they work on the replacement? Stop selling the cars altogether? That would have cost them a lot more money, and ultimately been just as damaging. Instead they opted for damage control.

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

It's simple.

Ironically, it is about the way you drive the car. Unfortunately for Ford, they effectively sold these as a replacement for fully automatics, and when owners tried to drive them as such, it didn't work.

And yes, I'm sure they did know quite early that they had a problem. But what to do whilst they work on the replacement? Stop selling the cars altogether? That would have cost them a lot more money, and ultimately been just as damaging. Instead they opted for damage control.

Or in Fords case NO damage control.

Your mention of how to drive a dsg concerns me, it is brought up frequently in these discussions. Exactly HOW is a driver supposed to drive a dsg correctly so it doesn’t buck, jerk,shudder at low speed. It’s a 2 pedal transmission, the driver only has 2 methods of input. They are simply not fit for purpose.

[Romulus]

Anyone noticed the new 2.8 D4D Hilux’s smoking from the exhaust? They’re either burning either oil or unburnt diesel.

I thought it was a one off, but I’d count at least a dozen or so of the new model doing this.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by Romulus

image

Anyone noticed the new 2.8 D4D Hilux’s smoking from the exhaust? They’re either burning either oil or unburnt diesel.

I thought it was a one off, but I’d count at least a dozen or so of the new model doing this.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I’ve seen fortuners and prados with the 2.8 do it too.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Its an issue with the DPF clogging up. Looks like their fix for it will be adding a manual DPF burn button on the dash.

[DFB FGXR6]

One of my uncles owned a petrol LW Focus Trend sedan from new, and of course fitted with a Powershift gearbox. The car numerous trips back to the dealer for repair work on the gearbox and both the dealer and Ford Customer Relations explained it was his driving style that was causing the problems. This particular uncle of mine is the most careful and conservative person I know – it was hardly like he was driving it like a Ferrari! After three years of frustration and only about 40,000km, he traded it for a LZ Focus Trend Hatch, “aided” by a Ford goodwill discount.
Just today I find out the LZ Focus has broken down, on several occasions, and now won’t start. RACV called and informs that it will need to be towed to the dealer. Dealer can’t inspect the car for over a week and no lone car available. Ford Customer relations and the dealer basically tell him tuff luck, you will have to wait. Car will have to be towed to the dealer at his expense.
What annoys me is that with all the media and 10 million dollar fine, I would have thought Ford and their dealers would be bending over backward to attend to anything to do with a Focus, Fiesta or EcoSport in the name of customer relations. Instead, the same old rubbish continues as it always has. So my uncle, who was given the run around on his first Focus then took a financial hit and stayed loyal to the brand by buying another is treated like this.
He will now, after effectively having been a Ford man for life, never buy another Ford product again. And I’m sure this sort of action will be echoed by the many thousands that have been involved in this gearbox drama.
Most people that know me or follow my posts on here would know, in most cases, I would defend the Ford brand to the grave. I’m a Ford man to the core, have only ever owned Fords. But this makes me so angry that it has me questioning why I would or should ever consider buying another Ford in the future. I can’t believe how out of touch Ford Australia and their dealers are when it comes to customer service and the viral nature of the media, and social media in particular.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Romulus

image

Anyone noticed the new 2.8 D4D Hilux’s smoking from the exhaust? They’re either burning either oil or unburnt diesel.

I thought it was a one off, but I’d count at least a dozen or so of the new model doing this.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes. I saw a stinker the other day blowing more smoke than the one in your photo. I was very surprised to see what it was when a caught up with it.

[blueoval]

I think the key factor here is that it isn't the gearbox per sey that is the issue, Im sure it is a concern and rightly so, but rather the attitude of dealers and after sales service when an issue is brought to their attention. Snubbing people off and finger pointing at the owner as if they are imbeciles is extremely derogatory as far as Im concerned. I truly feel sorry and pity for those who have had to experience this now and into the future while under ownership of one of these cars.

[DFB FGXR6]

This weeks Autoline After Hours titled "The Story Behind The Story of Fords Transmission Problems" features writer Phoebe Howard from the Detroit Free Press. This is available as audio or video and is well worth a listen/watch.

http://www.autoline.tv/journal/?p=62700

The short of the story is that Ford internal documents prove that they knew about the issues well before the products went on sale.

The original article is titled "Ford knew Focus, Fiesta models had flawed transmission, sold them anyway".

https://www.freep.com/in-depth/money...ct/1671198001/

Fords response.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...on/1759446001/

"Ford secretly tells dealers: Fix faulty Focus, Fiesta transmissions until July 19"
https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...ta/1766990001/

Frankly makes it hard to be a loyal Ford customer/fan with crap like this.

[prydey]

so did US focus not get the torque converter 6sp from 2015 onwards (LZ)? The article says affected cars include my17 builds.

certainly not a good look, however I think the real truth is somewhere in the middle of the two sides (ford v media).

[DFB FGXR6]

No, the US continued with Powershift on Fiesta and Focus right up to the end.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

No, the US continued with Powershift on Fiesta and Focus right up to the end.

Correct, Mark Fields skimped on the 2015 Refresh and just did cosmetic tizz/equipment.
around 1.9 millon Ford owners are affected by the Powershift issue in USA.

Ford has now ordered dealers to fix any issues with PS up until next month,
the power of bad publicity is now starting to bite as Ford is stung into action.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by danzvtil

Your mention of how to drive a dsg concerns me, it is brought up frequently in these discussions. Exactly HOW is a driver supposed to drive a dsg correctly so it doesn’t buck, jerk,shudder at low speed. It’s a 2 pedal transmission, the driver only has 2 methods of input. They are simply not fit for purpose.

Sorry, just saw your reply.
The short answer, at least with the Power-Shi(f)t is that you simply can't crawl as you can in an auto.
You basically have to drive it as you would a manual, either on or off. If you brake at low speeds it disengages, and is supposedto re-engage smoothlywhen you accelerate.
In theory, this should be no worse than driving a manual car, but again I think the "theory" was a little off.

I have only ever driven the larger "Power-Shifts" in a Mondeo which I believe to be the hydraulic wet-clutch versions, and I have never had a problem.
(although I do wonder what the insides of the box would look like after 100kk of city driving?)

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

The short of the story is that Ford internal documents prove that they knew about the issues well before the products went on sale.

Of course they knew.

Even when you look at FoA and development of the Falcon, the Latency is horrendous. Basically if you told them to fix something today, it would 4~5 years before the fix made it into production.
The Crazy irony of it, is that even when they know there is a fault, and have developed the fix, they spend even more time testing the fix, all the while selling the faulty product.

[Citroënbender]

The workaround for Selespeeds (Alfa etc, and the BMW SMG version) is to use a bit of handbrake to temper your throttle when wanting to "creep". Makes stuff like reversing to parallel park or nosing up to a barrier/stop, much more bearable. This may work on the smaller Powershift boxes.

[Franco Cozzo]

DSG transmissions aren't real suitable replacements for plain ol' slushbox, not for your average Tom, Dick and Harriet anyway.

First experienced these glittery turds as an apprentice with Victoria Police having drama with their fleet of DSG VW Transporters, even driving them new around our work car park you could feel how jerky they were with the on and off the clutch in 1st gear. vans with sub 40,000km having transmission dramas etc.

Reminds me of those push button autos in the late 1990s/early 00s Ford Transit, what an abortion those were.

Given how notoriously tight assed accountants are in the automotive industry, I'm very surprised they allowed the use of such an expensive transmission by the engineering department on their cheapest range of cars, surely the slushbox being tried and true is cheaper option than a DSG box?

Or maybe thats why the DSG is crapping out everywhere because they're now real cheap and nasty?

What a Powercrapola worth new if you were to buy over the counter at Ford parts department?

[jpd80]

Six months before the 2012 Ford Focus went to dealers, veteran development engineer Tom Langeland emailed transmission calibration manager George Herr and others with his concerns about the DPS6 performance. (Highlighting added by Free Press)
Court documents

The next February, a month before the Focus went to dealers, Craig Renneker, then acting director of transmission and driveline engineering, emailed Richard Bonifas, a customer service manager at the Michigan Assembly Plant in Wayne, where the cars were being built.

“The 2012 Focus vehicles equipped with the DPS6 transmission may experience a shudder/shake on start up or when slowing to a stop … ship the vehicles to the dealers with the level of shudder we currently have and continue our efforts towards a permanent resolution ASAP,” Renneker wrote on Feb. 21, 2011. “That’s just my opinion and it’s not a popular one.”

But that's what Ford did.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by csv8

Why wasn't the fault found during testing before it went on sale? Surely, for many kms of testing ? Or did Ford just ignore it and now the sxxt has hit the fan.? Makes the CAPTIVA look good !!!

The problem was well known. That is why there was no warranty agreement between Ford and ZF.