10 years since GM announced they would cease making cars in Australia

[DJM83]

I know this is a Ford forum, but i thought this thread might be a celebration of the red corners cars.
Instead its just political poo throwing depending on what side you sit. What a waste.

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by DJM83

I know this is a Ford forum, but i thought this thread might be a celebration of the red corners cars.
Instead its just political poo throwing depending on what side you sit. What a waste.

Lots of us here are hurt by the loss of our local car industry, as Australian new car consumers we have less choice than ever. Our so called family vehicles are heavier and thirstier than ever, and still have drum brakes in the rear when our locally built Falcons stopped doing that in 1986!

That said, I would love a VS S pack V8 manual ute. My dream Holden. Preferably a late one with the VT steering wheel

[arm79]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

The incentives to car manufacturers was based on every $3 you put in we give you $1 so not really 50% as you stated. Plus Holden received double the amount Toyota and Ford received in one 10 year period I last saw the figures for.

The near 50% figure came from a report I read ling ago that summed all direct and indirect subsidies and incentives. It worked out that for every car built at one point, near 50% of the cost was offset by the taxpayer. And that figure would only grow as production and sales declined.

Unfortunately its nothing I will ever be able to find again.

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

In Ford's case FG-X only happened as an election was coming up and the Fed/Vic State came to an agreement with Ford Aust/Ford US to grant enough to have the update go to market. And these were Labor governments just to needle you.

Not a needle, more proof that Ford weren't interested in doing anything unless someone else paid for it.

That aside, what you've written is just another thing that governments do, Labor are masters at it, when blatantly buying votes. Not doing what's best for everyone, just buying favor. But thats for another thread.

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by arm79

That aside, what you've written is just another thing that governments do, Labor are masters at it, when blatantly buying votes. Not doing what's best for everyone, just buying favor. But thats for another thread.

Hear hear. Not that it worked, Ford (and Mitsubishi and Nissan for that matter) decided to leave under a Labor government, before Joe Hockey was ever a government minister. Once the first domino fell, it was only a matter of time before the others did.

Edit: I feel like everyone tends to forget what the circumstances were for Nissan's departure. The Clayton factory shut down directly after a certain car plan was introduced to "rationalise" the industry, and remind me again which side of politics implemented said car plan?

Further edit: Of the manufacturers that did stay after the early nineties, they slashed local production heavily. Remember locally built Corolla, Laser etc? Remember the Homebush plant, and the Eagle Farm plant (where my XH was built, the last model made)?

[Franco Cozzo]

Local manufacturing and politics are tied hand in hand, you can't have a discussion without talking about the ugly side of it.

All countries with automotive manufacturing subsidise their industries, as well as have dodgy **** like the US and their 'chicken tax' to 'encourage' manufacturers who want a slice of the US market to build locally.

The Toyota Tundra and Tacoma is an example of that.

You either have sketchy **** going on like the US and its 'chicken tax' or you all work for a bowl of rice a month.

Why would Ford build cars in Australia when they have the 'Auto Alliance' plant in Thailand that can pump out 450,000 cars/year?

What was Broadmeadows capacity, 60,000/year in an ancient plant? I've been watching them pull the factory down in Campbellfield.

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Local manufacturing and politics are tied hand in hand, you can't have a discussion without talking about the ugly side of it.

All countries with automotive manufacturing subsidise their industries, as well as have dodgy **** like the US and their 'chicken tax' to 'encourage' manufacturers who want a slice of the US market to build locally.

The Toyota Tundra and Tacoma is an example of that

Heck even Thailand itself had an 80% tariff on imported motor vehicles until recently. And that's how we get a 2023 Recirculux that carries less, handles worse, is less powerful and uses more fuel than my 1996 ute that has a basic body design from 1979.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by arm79

The near 50% figure came from a report I read ling ago that summed all direct and indirect subsidies and incentives. It worked out that for every car built at one point, near 50% of the cost was offset by the taxpayer. And that figure would only grow as production and sales declined.

Unfortunately its nothing I will ever be able to find again.



Not a needle, more proof that Ford weren't interested in doing anything unless someone else paid for it.

That aside, what you've written is just another thing that governments do, Labor are masters at it, when blatantly buying votes. Not doing what's best for everyone, just buying favor. But that's for another thread.

Any government subsidy, either directly in cash or indirectly through offset incentives, etc didn't just prop up a car industry, had a pool of local businesses exist in all the supply chains, it also created jobs in those industries that usually required training, skills development and the ability to manufacturer and sell products in other areas apart from cars. And all those employed paid tax and spent their money locally.
It happens to and by many manufacturers around the world, look at MB and BMW in the USA, Boeing, Airbus, etc....
Losing a local industry has also removed a form of price control that importers no longer have to worry about....you couldn't sell an imported SUV from Kia or Hyundai without worrying about Territory and the same for Commodore and sedans. We've lost far more than what the government of any colour spent supporting the car industry.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

Heck even Thailand itself had an 80% tariff on imported motor vehicles until recently. And that's how we get a 2023 Recirculux that carries less, handles worse, is less powerful and uses more fuel than my 1996 ute that has a basic body design from 1979.

And we signed free trade agreements with them, if anyone is actually interested in how badly that effected our manufacturing industry, go read the productivity commission submissions from tyre and automotive part suppliers to the government at the time.

The one from South Pacific Tyres in 2002 is a great example of a massive manufacturing powerhouse going from being the leading tyre manufacturer in Australia to being dead 6 years later taking out 2000 jobs with them.

We gave 'developing countries' preferential access into our market but they protected their own.

We sign a FTA with South Korea in 2014 but they still have 40% tarrifs on our beef export, sugar exports, 36% on cheddar cheese, 89% on our butter, 289% on malt, 304% on potatoes, 513% on barley.

And we take in their ****box cars duty free since 2014? Who the **** signed this deal? They could do with a pair of glasses I think.

Should put a 513% tarrif on Hyundai and Kia and then see how popular they are in the Australian market.

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Any government subsidy, either directly in cash or indirectly through offset incentives, etc didn't just prop up a car industry, had a pool of local businesses exist in all the supply chains, it also created jobs in those industries that usually required training, skills development and the ability to manufacturer and sell products in other areas apart from cars. And all those employed paid tax and spent their money locally.
It happens to and by many manufacturers around the world, look at MB and BMW in the USA, Boeing, Airbus, etc....
Losing a local industry has also removed a form of price control that importers no longer have to worry about....you couldn't sell an imported SUV from Kia or Hyundai without worrying about Territory and the same for Commodore and sedans. We've lost far more than what the government of any colour spent supporting the car industry.

Previous employer, employed 700 staff across two production locations in Victoria alone supplying our automotive manufacturing industry, by the time I left in 2022 it was 30 nationally.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Local manufacturing and politics are tied hand in hand, you can't have a discussion without talking about the ugly side of it.

All countries with automotive manufacturing subsidise their industries, as well as have dodgy **** like the US and their 'chicken tax' to 'encourage' manufacturers who want a slice of the US market to build locally.

The Toyota Tundra and Tacoma is an example of that.

You either have sketchy **** going on like the US and its 'chicken tax' or you all work for a bowl of rice a month.

Why would Ford build cars in Australia when they have the 'Auto Alliance' plant in Thailand that can pump out 450,000 cars/year?

What was Broadmeadows capacity, 60,000/year in an ancient plant? I've been watching them pull the factory down in Campbellfield.

It was about 120K and more limited by the engine plant capacity iirc.

[lra]

Originally Posted by DJM83

I know this is a Ford forum, but i thought this thread might be a celebration of the red corners cars.
Instead its just political poo throwing depending on what side you sit. What a waste.

OK. Some thoughts to upset forum members.
Fords big days were up to the XC Falcon. Great looking cars with performance and passenger carrying capacity that left Holden for dead. Then something happened. XD lost its sex appeal and became a practical car that was more roomy than a Commodore, which started kicking goals, despite being smaller and with the unkillable, but outdated 6 cyl.

I was at the Sydney Motor Show the day after they pulled the covers of the Commodore Coupe / V2 Monaro. It was like Holden was handing out free ice creams to kids, while Ford had a box of broccoli. That was a turning point for Holden. And the Monaro was put into production on a shoestring budget.

Much talk about a Falcon coupe, and that was it.
Ford had a R5 ute which should have gone into production, when the Holden Crewman did.
The Statesman / Caprice sales grew inversely to the Fairlane sales. Ford seemed relieved to stop production there.
Want a sporty, good looking VE wagon equivalent ? Nothing to see at the Ford showroom. Again, Ford strangled the wagon.
FPV had some great cars, but was a token effort to counter the HSV army.
Adventra v Territory. Well, no contest there. Maybe the Nullabor would have evened out that contest.
Coupe 60 / VE Monaro vs Camaro. Did someone say 'rigged election'.

Ford set the pace in the late '60s, during the '70s, and early '80s but dropped the baton somewhere in the grass, and by the time they found it, Holden were too far ahead to catch.

Just imagine what may have been if the Govt (here we go again) had told Ford and GM to go **** themselves in 2010 or earlier, nationalise the production plants, and built a variety of vehicles to suit the Australian market, with Australian know how and support industries.
Couldn't have cost the taxpayer any more than chucking $$$$ onto a plane to send to the USA, in return for nothing.











.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Any government subsidy, either directly in cash or indirectly through offset incentives, etc didn't just prop up a car industry, had a pool of local businesses exist in all the supply chains, it also created jobs in those industries that usually required training, skills development and the ability to manufacturer and sell products in other areas apart from cars. And all those employed paid tax and spent their money locally.
It happens to and by many manufacturers around the world, look at MB and BMW in the USA, Boeing, Airbus, etc....
Losing a local industry has also removed a form of price control that importers no longer have to worry about....you couldn't sell an imported SUV from Kia or Hyundai without worrying about Territory and the same for Commodore and sedans. We've lost far more than what the government of any colour spent supporting the car industry.

Agreed,I recall an conversation with a production manager at the time around 2010 when the viability of the car industry was in question. We had a large cast aluminium instrument chassis was manufactured by a local automotive component supplier. The Production manager made the point that we were reliant on the auto sector for components and Engineering people that filtered out of the sector, indeed many of our engineering staff were ex automotive manufacturing and had a wealth of experience and talent. The BIG picture.

[CyberWasp]

I have a question which is out of curiosity only, which I hope somebody can give an answer.
Not trying to get involved with what each Political Party did here or there , this is just a curiosity.

If we go back to a few years before Ford left the Market for example, is there a figure that could be roughly approximated as to how much the Government would spend a year on the Australian Automotive Industry in subsidies?

The 2nd part is how much does the Australian Government give back now, in Tax Incentives on Dual Cab Utes in a rough yearly figure?

Maybe this is the wrong comparison to make.

I am not sure if it can be answered but just trying to see the before and after and all the implications and jobs that have changed in the 10+ year period since the Car Industry closed.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I would go to my local Jeep dealer but it disappeared years ago

I remember when those WK2 Jeep Grand Cherokees came out that looked absolutely mint, they were everywhere, those 'I bought a Jeep' ads all over TV, I've even got the Jeep t-shirts from those pop up Jeep stores.

Haven't seen one of those things on the road in years - still got the t-shirts though, they can't make cars for **** but they made wicked quality t-shirts

Stellantis is like if Captain Planet was summoned by AIDS, Chlamydia, Syphilis, Gonorrhea and HPV instead of earth, fire, wind, water and heart.

Hahahahaha thanks for the laugh

That very idea could save the Marvel Universe...

[Sprintey]

I could cut and paste a lot, but: Bill M, ToryMikey, Ira: great contributions to understanding this sad topic.

Franco re those trade agreements: when you take Power, could you reintroduce treason legislation and backdate it 50 years? Thx in advance

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

I could cut and paste a lot, but: Bill M, ToryMikey, Ira: great contributions to understanding this sad topic.

Franco re those trade agreements: when you take Power, could you reintroduce treason legislation and backdate it 50 years? Thx in advance

There should be a lot of pollies here who should be up on treason charges.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

There should be a lot of pollies here who should be up on treason charges.

I love how once they get booted out eventually, they end up in cushy do nothing positions with resource companies, banks and that sort of thing.

The federal resources minister fighting tooth and nail with the WA state government at the time to prevent their domestic gas reservation policy ends up on the board of a resources council post politics

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I love how once they get booted out eventually, they end up in cushy do nothing positions with resource companies, banks and that sort of thing.

The federal resources minister fighting tooth and nail with the WA state government at the time to prevent their domestic gas reservation policy ends up on the board of a resources council post politics

Like good old corrupt Glady, who now heads Optus, funny that.

Nothing new, I was reading the history of this Island, the Hon Mr Dangar, a pollie at the time decided to buy it even as it stood as Crown land. WTF, he then decides to go on and develop it with a US bridge builders (Brooklyn Bridge Co) for money.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

There should be a lot of pollies here who should be up on treason charges.

Wasn't treason removed sometime in the very late 1960s? By mid 70s we had (tin foil hat: on) the Lima Agreement.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Like good old corrupt Glady, who now heads Optus, funny that.

Nothing new, I was reading the history of this Island, the Hon Mr Dangar, a pollie at the time decided to buy it even as it stood as Crown land. WTF, he then decides to go on and develop it with a US bridge builders (Brooklyn Bridge Co) for money.

Been going on since the Rum Corps:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_Corps

[Sprintey]

OK, back to Holdens, I really like the final VF Calais wagon:

https://www.drive.com.au/reviews/hol...calais-review/

What they produced, for a sub $40K ask back then, was true value for money, and pretty ritzy brand new. It was E85 capable so you could wean off fossil fuels for the climate and also support Aussie farmers while not consuming vast amounts of critical minerals in it's construction. The ride around town is lovely (non-V model) as it's soft and compliant and just cruisey in the 6cyl. A light steering for parking builds weight as you turn it around the suburban course: corners, roundabouts, driveways and maybe even a couple of twisty arterial roads. It has a bit less poke than the Ford 6, but it's endearing in it's own way.

The motor gets the oil dilution/sludging/timing chain woes, but 5000km oil changes and drilling out the PCV valve seem to help and honestly $1300 for the chains is a bit of a bargain in 2023 compared to some of the costs when motors detonate or batteries wear out or DPFs go nuts.

For my way of thinking, it's the modern HQ Premier.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Swordie

I still have my VY Wagon I purchased just over 20 years ago. I still enjoy driving it. Holden built some really good cars.

Just seen this Swordie - yes we still have Dad's, purchased new. About 125K on it. Beautiful car.

[FTE217]

I'd take the VF Clubsport wagon actually bugga granpa spec

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

OK, back to Holdens, I really like the final VF Calais wagon:

For my way of thinking, it's the modern HQ Premier.

Something I really liked about the old red, blue and black Holden straight six was timing gears, not one bloody chain to be seen.

[Sprintey]

Plus, there's a pin on the fuel pump and if that goes, take a less important fuse out, smash the glass and insert the metal end into pin position - voila, repaired! Ask me how I know

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by FTE217

I'd take the VF Clubsport wagon actually bugga granpa spec

'Grampa Sports' (GS) has been kind to me

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Something I really liked about the old red, blue and black Holden straight six was timing gears, not one bloody chain to be seen.

Here's Street Machine's homage to the Red Holden six:

https://www.streetmachine.com.au/fea...-red-motor-six

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Here's Street Machine's homage to the Red Holden six:

https://www.streetmachine.com.au/fea...-red-motor-six

After owning something like 18 different versions over the years in all sorts of Holden's, set up from bog stock to overbored balanced screamers and some ran as courier cars, these would be my all time choice for reliability and economy.

Such a simply 6 pack.
My ol man had its big distant cousins the US 292 powering our Chevy C60 furniture truck.

Still would choose one over Holden's 253 and 308.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

After owning something like 18 different versions over the years in all sorts of Holden's, set up from bog stock to overbored balanced screamers and some ran as courier cars, these would be my all time choice for reliability and economy.

Such a simply 6 pack.
My ol man had its big distant cousins the US 292 powering our Chevy C60 furniture truck.

Still would choose one over Holden's 253 and 308.

All time choice for reliability and economy. Is that between the GM offerings or also over the Falcon 250 and 245/265 Hemi?

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by smoo

All time choice for reliability and economy. Is that between the GM offerings or also over the Falcon 250 and 245/265 Hemi?

Had them all. 245/265 Hemi's certainly great but hardly economical to run.
250 log Ok, 250 crossflow, meh, still take a super reliable 202 over it.

My opinion only no one has to agree.

[Sprintey]

First few cars were red 173 HJ, red 202 pre-ADR27a HJ, red 202 post ADR27a HZ, 245 Hemi VG and then 302W XW. Mates had 161 HG, 308 LX, 202 HJ x 2, 225 2brl VF, 202 VC, 186 glide in HR Prem that I remember. Girlfriend had 253 auto WB. Also got to drive an aquaintances 250 XY 3 on tree which was in immaculate condition and maintained by a fellow who did his apprenticeship on those - THAT was a car!

The 173 3 on tree was a bit gutless, the HJ 202 trimatic was lovely, smooth and torquey within reason. Also smooth was the trimatic, though it was half way to stuffed and everyone called them 'traumatic'. Enough power in that one for me, and the motor was a strong one. Parts were ridiculously cheap, you could still find fan belts in country delis... They were very simple to maintain, economy was OK. I could get close to 30mpg with the 173 on the highway, not far off that in the 202.

The HZ 202 motor, after emission controls, had power but I think I got a bad example from a dodgy seller. Ended up going onto 4 cylinders and getting really rough, then Dad used it as trade in on his VR (3.8 was rough rubbish compared to 202, but it had a bit of honk).

202's were supposed to burn valves in the tropics (didnt apply to us) and the older crew said the 186 was the best motor. I did love driving the 186 HR.

The 245 Hemi was base model, 3 on the tree again, drums all round - and it could flog the WB! But it was noisy, more vibration than the Holdens. A happy surprise was the 225 2 barrel in the VF wagon, that had smoothness and power. I've since driven a 225 auto push button AP5, it felt similar.

The 302 XW was a revelation, with the sound, the torque, the ability to just eat the miles and way more comfortable seats in Fairmont trim. The Holden wagons were better off road and hunting down surf tracks, didn't get bogged as often.

Rokwiz I guess those cars were formative for me, I do rate the 202 trimatic as quite pleasant. So finding a similar feel, smoothness, way the torque was applied, and floatyness in the VF Calais (non V) was a nice surprise. A lot of new cars just don't have the well sorted smooth 6 feel that these Holdens and their rivals had.