Covid 19 -

Originally Posted by Trendseeker

I doubt that there are any conspiracies. Just lack of coordination between state and federal governments, mistakes, arguing, blaming, excuses and general confusion about rules. They don’t have the time or resources to conspire about anything else.

Australia hasn't really had a pandemic before so we don't have a playbook to refer to. Other countries that experienced ebola/whatnot created a game plan afterwards so that in the event of another they'd have a plan that they could enact swiftly. We're having to figure it out as we go, just like they did the first time around. All we can really hope for is that we'll analyse what worked/didn't work and create a playbook of our own so that next time we'll know what to do and we can roll it out fast. To be honest it's a bit unreasonable to expect a pandemic-inexperienced government to get it 100% right first go.

If our government fails to learn from the experience of the first one and doesn't create a proper plan of attack for next time, well that's a different issue and can't really be excused.

edited to add: My own personal wish is that all levels of government can realise what's at stake and stop the waffling around. Our country has been turning the people against either side for a long time just so they can get themselves elected and the other party out. I hope they can all cut the bull**** and realise that their job is to meet the needs of the country and the people, they should all be focusing their attentions on that. Australians seem to love to argue and flip flop backwards and forwards between parties, there's no forward thinking at all.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

Exactly

I am starting to feel like a mushroom. I have been a 'true believer' up until a couple of weeks ago - but I am starting to think there is a bigger game at play here, to what end I don't know, but just a gut feeling

My feelings have nothing to do with socialism, communism or any of that conspiracy theory rubbish, but I am feeling there is definitely something going on behind the scenes

My take on the vaccine roll out and the handling of this pandemic is this old saying
"too many cooks in the kitchen"

Cheers

[Citroënbender]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

The federal one's a dead duck, states/territories have there own and want you to use it, in Tas they have even mandated the use of there own over the Fed one....I got 4 now, Qld, NT, Tas and WA....

What a coincidence; this article today on the ABC:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/...iant/100255028

Originally Posted by The article

Senate Estimates heard in March that the app had not detected any unique close contacts since November last year.

It also heard the app has cost more than $6.5 million with ongoing costs of at least $100,000 per month.

The government has entered into contracts worth nearly $10 million for work on the app up until the end of 2021.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by leesa

Australia hasn't really had a pandemic before so we don't have a playbook to refer to. Other countries that experienced ebola/whatnot created a game plan afterwards so that in the event of another they'd have a plan that they could enact swiftly. We're having to figure it out as we go, just like they did the first time around. All we can really hope for is that we'll analyse what worked/didn't work and create a playbook of our own so that next time we'll know what to do and we can roll it out fast. To be honest it's a bit unreasonable to expect a pandemic-inexperienced government to get it 100% right first go.

If our government fails to learn from the experience of the first one and doesn't create a proper plan of attack for next time, well that's a different issue and can't really be excused.

edited to add: My own personal wish is that all levels of government can realise what's at stake and stop the waffling around. Our country has been turning the people against either side for a long time just so they can get themselves elected and the other party out. I hope they can all cut the bull**** and realise that their job is to meet the needs of the country and the people, they should all be focusing their attentions on that. Australians seem to love to argue and flip flop backwards and forwards between parties, there's no forward thinking at all.

Your best post leesa to date for me - agreed.
Our Govs also instead of thinking about themselves as they have for so long should be making the media far more accountable for all the misleading crap they throw up for headlines in these questionable/challenging times for all.

[Trevor 57]

I reckon we should ban political parties, after all there is no mention of them in our Constitution, let people vote on the conscious all the time, it would be a much free'er parliament - all elected members decide who is PM and the best person is picked/elected by a free vote for the Ministers roles

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

What a coincidence; this article today on the ABC:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/...iant/100255028

Right intentions, poor execution. Just to think, if this app was working, and everyone bought into it, we wouldn't have to be having a p!ssing contest re: contact tracers, QR codes etc. Health services could identify and isolate 90% (assuming 10% without phones) close contacts within a few minutes.

Incidentally, mum recently complained that her phone (Samsung S9+) was running out of battery all the time. So I took a look the other day, and noticed that the CovidSafe app was still installed and chewing up all the battery when the phone was idle. So its gone now.

[russellw]

Data valid as at 00:00 GMT June 30th, 2021.

Note: As not all Australian States report at the same time, the data below is based on the previous full day reporting.

57 new cases for Australia and no deaths so the CMR is 2.973%.

1 case and no deaths for NZ so CMR is 0.948% and active cases 31.

The UK had a higher 25,606 cases yesterday and lower 14 deaths.

A lower 18,865 new cases in the USA yesterday and higher 320 deaths sees CMR at 1.796%.

Other notable points:

Cambodia (1,130);
Kyrgyzstan (1,965) - the previous high in July last year;
Tunisia (5,921)Bangladesh (8,822); and
Indonesia (21,807)

... recorded new daily highs; those in blue for the second consecutive day and those in red for a third or more consecutive day.

Mozambique moves above the 90th percentile for the 10 day period while no countries drop below.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by leesa

If our government fails to learn from the experience of the first one and doesn't create a proper plan of attack for next time, well that's a different issue and can't really be excused.

Hmmmm do you mean like the constitutional changes we made to quarantine after the spanish flu, but then choose to ignore it? Or do you mean like the purpose of setting up the WHO, but then choosing to slag them off at every opportunity?

Yes, agree, it is a 1 in 100 year event that no one alive today has been through. But past lessons have been documented, some people just chose to ignore it.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Hmmmm do you mean like the constitutional changes we made to quarantine after the spanish flu, but then choose to ignore it? Or do you mean like the purpose of setting up the WHO, but then choosing to slag them off at every opportunity?

Yes, agree, it is a 1 in 100 year event that no one alive today has been through. But past lessons have been documented, some people just chose to ignore it.

this Federal Government is like an elephant on Mandrax in its response to this pandemic

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

What a coincidence; this article today on the ABC:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/...iant/100255028

I think it is natural that people have stopped opening it now they have mandated state based apps.

The Feds one was a different basis - who you were close to. A good thing was that you didn't have to check in. They got it out fast but it needed to be active all the time. It had good points, giving updates and warnings close to where you were. But it was doomed as it relied on everyone doing the right thing, intentionally and unintentionally. I often accidentally closed it, and needed the app to remind me to realise. Also it was built on the medical advice of the time, 15 minutes close to someone, we have learnt a bit about that since.

At least it didn't take over a year to get out there. The newer breed are better, the Vic one is particularly good. As to why it took so long to create such a simple app, that I cannot answer.

As for complaining about the cost - 20 to 30 cents for each man woman and child, there are other things to worry about.

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Hmmmm do you mean like the constitutional changes we made to quarantine after the spanish flu, but then choose to ignore it? Or do you mean like the purpose of setting up the WHO, but then choosing to slag them off at every opportunity?

Yes, agree, it is a 1 in 100 year event that no one alive today has been through. But past lessons have been documented, some people just chose to ignore it.

which ones were ignored? I'm not sure that they can even be compared as it's a vastly different world now? Surely back then most people arrived by boat and had effectively quarantined during their journey. Now it's a couple of hours for people to get into the country and that opens up a lot more opportunity for disease to come in internationally. How was contact tracing even achieved back then? Perhaps it wasn't possible?

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

I came across this video today. It provides a fairly basic and easy to understand explanation of how the various COVID variants developed, and why the Delta and Delta Plus strains are so prevalent.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-...-plus/13426792

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by leesa

which ones were ignored? I'm not sure that they can even be compared as it's a vastly different world now? Surely back then most people arrived by boat and had effectively quarantined during their journey. Now it's a couple of hours for people to get into the country and that opens up a lot more opportunity for disease to come in internationally. How was contact tracing even achieved back then? Perhaps it wasn't possible?

One example, we were hesitant to adopt mandatory masking. Remember all the hoohah when Victoria made masks mandatory? In fact, we didn't even need the WHO to tell us that, we could have just looked at other jurisdictions that have been through "outbreaks" in the past.

We should be ok for future pandemics. After vaccination is complete, we will have contact tracing chips in all of us.

[Yellow_Festiva]

And on a lighter note:

[cs123]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Hmmmm do you mean like the constitutional changes we made to quarantine after the spanish flu, but then choose to ignore it? Or do you mean like the purpose of setting up the WHO, but then choosing to slag them off at every opportunity?

Yes, agree, it is a 1 in 100 year event that no one alive today has been through. But past lessons have been documented, some people just chose to ignore it.

They actually have pandemic plans and update them regularly.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

One example, we were hesitant to adopt mandatory masking. Remember all the hoohah when Victoria made masks mandatory? In fact, we didn't even need the WHO to tell us that, we could have just looked at other jurisdictions that have been through "outbreaks" in the past.

We should be ok for future pandemics. After vaccination is complete, we will have contact tracing chips in all of us.

Don't forget at first the CHO's and the entire Australian medical fraternity said masks wouldn't help as the general populace was to dumb to "use" them properly. But it is less about 100 healthy people wearing one to protect themselves, more about 1 infected person giving 75% protection on infecting others.

A thinly "masked" conspiracy to keep the short supply items for themselves. They should have just said general population should wear a mask of any kind from the start and kept surgical ones for the health professionals.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

I came across this video today. It provides a fairly basic and easy to understand explanation of how the various COVID variants developed, and why the Delta and Delta Plus strains are so prevalent.



https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-...-plus/13426792

Another prime example of not learning. The WHO has warned against vaccine hoarding by rich countries, one reason because new strains/variants will develop from poorer countries if left unvaccinated. So what happens? All the rich countries hoard the vaccine and prevent mass production due to IP. Crikey!

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Another prime example of not learning. The WHO has warned against vaccine hoarding by rich countries, one reason because new strains/variants will develop from poorer countries if left unvaccinated. So what happens? All the rich countries hoard the vaccine and prevent mass production due to IP. Crikey!

Except Australia and New Zealand!!!!!

If we are altruistic, we needed the vaccine least, and so even being rich we are missing out, waiting till last........

But in reality we are here due to inept government at all levels, and a population willing for someone else to get vaccinated so that we will be ok. Until there is an outbreak near me, then we stampede for the vaccine and complain we have to wait!

[Trendseeker]

Originally Posted by leesa

Australia hasn't really had a pandemic before so we don't have a playbook to refer to……

That wasn’t the point I was making. You partly picked it up in your edit at the end. My point was about the likelihood of conspiracies first and then about the lack of coordination between the governments that are not working closely enough with each other.

[Trendseeker]

Originally Posted by leesa

which ones were ignored? I'm not sure that they can even be compared as it's a vastly different world now? Surely back then most people arrived by boat and had effectively quarantined during their journey. Now it's a couple of hours for people to get into the country and that opens up a lot more opportunity for disease to come in internationally. How was contact tracing even achieved back then? Perhaps it wasn't possible?

You said “Australia hasn’t had a pandemic before”, and now you’re querying which lessons were not learned in the previous pandemic?

Travel times might be different now, but protection against contagion isn’t. The previous pandemic did reach Australia (estimated 15,000 deaths), so your point about long journey times on ships serving as effective quarantine doesn’t hold. And that’s simply because passengers don’t catch the flu all at the same time at the beginning of the trip.

As an example of a lesson not learned, more than one year after the pandemic started, there was no law requiring front line workers to wear masks. Eg. a limousine drivers ferrying international visitors around. Prevention.

Contract tracing may not have been done back then, and while it speeds up the process to suppress new outbreaks, it is reactive rather than proactive.

Originally Posted by Trendseeker

You said “Australia hasn’t had a pandemic before”, and now you’re querying which lessons were not learned in the previous pandemic?

I dunno Trendseeker, I don't think an outbreak in 1919 counts.

How the lessons of previous epidemics helped successful countries fight covid-19
https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n486

[cs123]

Originally Posted by leesa

I dunno Trendseeker, I don't think an outbreak in 1919 counts.

Are you suggesting that Australia didn't have a pandemic plan prior to the pandemic? They did and they enacted it.

While we may quibble about parts of the response. I would say Australia's response has been an overwhelming success.

https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/content/519F9392797E2DDCCA257D47001B9948/$File/w-AHMPPI-2019.PDF

This is the 2018 QLD plan
https://www.health.qld.gov.au/__data...demic-plan.pdf

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by tweeked

Except Australia and New Zealand!!!!!

If we are altruistic, we needed the vaccine least, and so even being rich we are missing out, waiting till last........

But in reality we are here due to inept government at all levels, and a population willing for someone else to get vaccinated so that we will be ok. Until there is an outbreak near me, then we stampede for the vaccine and complain we have to wait!

All jokes aside, when the PM said it wasn't "a race" at the beginning, I got it. That was when everyone was at an even playing field. But not everyone played ball, more "severe" variants are now emerging, so it is now a bit of a race unfortunately.

We need to, and should, prioritise ourselves for the vaccine now, but what sits a bit uncomfortably is that we are actively opposing the "free" manufacturing of the vaccines to countries that can't access it. I get it that those who invented it should be rewarded, but how many more billions does it take before we realise, oh crap we need to get everyone else done too or else we'll be forever playing catch up on new variants.

So this goes back to the "lessons", we have a world body telling us what needs to be done from past learnings, but we are very selective with what we want to listen to.

[lumen8]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

BBC has gone down the gurgler recently. But you can choose, that or conspiracy groups on Facebook and Twitter. Blue pill or red pill?

Third option, go watch some WEF vids and publications, and I mean the stuff they actually put out.

They push transhumanism, us not eating meat, limited travel, "you will own nothing and be happy" ... on it goes. Aligns with the extreme left/climate stuff.

Of course the people behind WEF are all multi-millionaires like Klaus Scwhab. Their way of life wont change if they get what they are pushing for.

Greg Hunt by the way was director of strategy for the WEF some time ago, im not suprised he is reading Schwabs book.

Originally Posted by cs123

Are you suggesting that Australia didn't have a pandemic plan prior to the pandemic? They did and they enacted it.

While we may quibble about parts of the response. I would say Australia's response has been an overwhelming success.

https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/content/519F9392797E2DDCCA257D47001B9948/$File/w-AHMPPI-2019.PDF

This is the 2018 QLD plan
https://www.health.qld.gov.au/__data...demic-plan.pdf

Not a tried and tested one for a novel virus, no. An influenza outbreak doesn't really compare. Did you read that document? Do you think it's sufficient to handle a global pandemic of a novel virus?
There's nothing in there about border measures, limiting intake of people and how to process them, nothing of the best way to quarantine and isolate, testing large numbers of the population, coordinating healthcare workers so that we don't either run low in other areas or accidentally kill off all our health staff, utilising our defense forces. It's an influenza strategy, it's inadequate for something like covid.

I've never said that Australia's strategy hasn't been a success, actually I think I've said that it has been a success on several occasions. What I've said is that people should quieten down and stop expecting that we're going to get it 100% right during our first go at a major pandemic. After it's done we'll go figure out what worked, what didn't and put it all together in a strategy that can be enacted from week1 the next time it happens.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by leesa

Not a tried and tested one for a novel virus, no. An influenza outbreak doesn't really compare. Did you read that document? Do you think it's sufficient to handle a global pandemic of a novel virus?
There's nothing in there about border measures, limiting intake of people and how to process them, nothing of the best way to quarantine and isolate, testing large numbers of the population, coordinating healthcare workers so that we don't either run low in other areas or accidentally kill off all our health staff, utilising our defense forces. It's an influenza strategy, it's inadequate for something like covid.

I've never said that Australia's strategy hasn't been a success, actually I think I've said that it has been a success on several occasions. What I've said is that people should quieten down and stop expecting that we're going to get it 100% right during our first go at a major pandemic. After it's done we'll go figure out what worked, what didn't and put it all together in a strategy that can be enacted from week1 the next time it happens.

Yes, funnily enough I have read it. I actually read them last year when this sprung up too. I would suggest you haven't read them fully though as they are rather lengthy documents.

And of interest, you would have noticed the detection of a novel virus was one of the triggers for enacting the QLD plan

Activation of the Queensland Health pandemic influenza plan may be considered by
the Director-General or the Chief Health Officer and Deputy Director-General
Prevention Division (CHO & DDG) under the following circumstances:
 notification from the Australian Government Department of Health of the emergence of a novel influenza virus with pandemic potential in Australia or overseas
 potential or actual threat of seasonal influenza overwhelming health service
capacity.

Go on Fonzie... say it... "I was wro ...wro...wrong"

[lumen8]

SA Chief Health officer dismissed vaccination rates as 'minor point': Kenny

Sky News host Chris Kenny says the SA Chief Health officer Nicola Spurrier "dismissed" the "fundamental question" surrounding the country's COVID response as a "minor point".

Originally Posted by cs123

Yes, funnily enough I have read it. I actually read them last year when this sprung up too. I would suggest you haven't read them fully though as they are rather lengthy documents.

And of interest, you would have noticed the detection of a novel virus was one of the triggers for enacting the QLD plan

Activation of the Queensland Health pandemic influenza plan may be considered by
the Director-General or the Chief Health Officer and Deputy Director-General
Prevention Division (CHO & DDG) under the following circumstances:
 notification from the Australian Government Department of Health of the emergence of a novel influenza virus with pandemic potential in Australia or overseas
 potential or actual threat of seasonal influenza overwhelming health service
capacity.

Go on Fonzie... say it... "I was wro ...wro...wrong"

A novel influenza virus. Are you doing the "it's just a flu" thing?

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by cs123

And of interest, you would have noticed the detection of a novel virus was one of the triggers for enacting the QLD plan



Activation of the Queensland Health pandemic influenza plan may be considered by

the Director-General or the Chief Health Officer and Deputy Director-General

Prevention Division (CHO & DDG) under the following circumstances:

 notification from the Australian Government Department of Health of the emergence of a novel influenza virus with pandemic potential in Australia or overseas

 potential or actual threat of seasonal influenza overwhelming health service

capacity.

I have found guvnor CHO Young to be very impressive. I thought her handling of the AZ debacle was on the spot..... "people are free to choose their own advice but my advice is........" that is all that needs to be said.

Knowing how Brisvegas residents socialise, I'm surprised there hasn't been an out of control outbreak (touch wood)

[cs123]

Originally Posted by leesa

A novel influenza virus. Are you doing the "it's just a flu" thing?

That is the document that the government uses when there is a serious risk from an influenza style virus.

Read it and you will understand how the government was planning to react to a pandemic just like this one.

That is their playbook. Obviously it gets adapted as they go

But for you to say they had no plan is wrong Fonzie. Just say it. Go on...