Covid 19 - - Page 399

01-07-2021, 03:44 PM

Why hasn't Australia and our influenza strategy been included in the discussions about countries who have successfully handled the outbreak due to past experiences with novel viruses?

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n486

**cs123** · 01-07-2021, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3rminator

I have found guvnor CHO Young to be very impressive. I thought her handling of the AZ debacle was on the spot..... "people are free to choose their own advice but my advice is........" that is all that needs to be said.

Knowing how Brisvegas residents socialise, I'm surprised there hasn't been an out of control outbreak (touch wood)

I think all the CHOs have been very impressive though this. Can't fault any of them really.

01-07-2021, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cs123

That is the document that the government uses when there is a serious risk from an influenza style virus.

Read it and you will understand how the government was planning to react to a pandemic just like this one.

That is their playbook. Obviously it gets adapted as they go

But for you to say they had no plan is wrong Fonzie. Just say it. Go on...

No, because we don't have a plan. We're figuring it out as we go along and there's nothing wrong with that. Time to lay off the wacky tobaccy, cs123.

Trevor 57 · 01-07-2021, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leesa

Why hasn't Australia and our influenza strategy been included in the discussions about countries who have successfully handled the outbreak due to past experiences with novel viruses?

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n486

because some countries focus on the health of its citizens whilst some countries focus on the financial implications - guess where we are?

**Ross 1** · 01-07-2021, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leesa

A novel influenza virus. Are you doing the "it's just a flu" thing?

The development of this plan has been informed by the:
 CD plan, emergency response plan for communicable disease incidents of national significance, September 20165—broadens the scope of the National action plan for human influenza pandemic to now cover all communicable disease incidents of national significance.

I don't think you read very far into the document you are criticising. I was only a few pages in and it clear states the above about all communicable diseases. Are you doing the "it's not a communicable diseases" thing?

**FairmontGS** · 01-07-2021, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leesa

No, because we don't have a plan. We're figuring it out as we go along and there's nothing wrong with that. Time to lay off the wacky tobaccy, cs123.

And there’s the admission of defeat - the personal attack..

**cs123** · 01-07-2021, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leesa

No, because we don't have a plan. We're figuring it out as we go along and there's nothing wrong with that. Time to lay off the wacky tobaccy, cs123.

Let me help you a bit

This is from the Pandemic plan (which doesn't exist)

Quote:

1.1 Purpose and scope
The purpose of the Queensland Health pandemic influenza plan (the plan) is to provide a strategic outline of Queensland Health responses to an influenza pandemic. It does not include detailed operational procedures.

...

The plan may also be applied to the management of other highly transmissible respiratory infections associated with significant morbidity or mortality, including severe seasonal influenza.

Quote:

Drawing on lessons identified from the influenza pandemic of 2009, the AHMPPI 1 and
the World Health Organization's Pandemic influenza risk management guidance,
4
this
plan aligns with an all-hazards approach interlinking with current national and stateemergency risk management strategies to manage health risks. The plan acknowledges the importance of a whole-of-government, multi-sectorial approach based on multi-stakeholder cooperation, effective communications at all levels, robust evidence-informed decision making and a flexible, scalable and responsive public health system.

They had a plan.....

**Fordman1** · 01-07-2021, 04:03 PM

This all boils down to the same old thing.

1. Incoming International flights

2. Hotel Quarantine

Ground hog day, we either all get Vaccinated (you may believe that is rubbish), or you stop blooming international flights / have a 100% effective process of controlling those that come in with this Virus.

This is all now a joke, and our State and Federal leaders need a bi-partisan approach, rather than the rubbish we’ve been hearing in the last 24 hours.

Ms Palash-chook (it’s not Palay-Shay), can be the first one to start leading, followed by a few others (who are just looking at opinion poles).

Edit: spelling

01-07-2021, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross 1

The development of this plan has been informed by the:
 CD plan, emergency response plan for communicable disease incidents of national significance, September 20165—broadens the scope of the National action plan for human influenza pandemic to now cover all communicable disease incidents of national significance.

I don't think you read very far into the document you are criticising. I was only a few pages in and it clear states the above about all communicable diseases. Are you doing the "it's not a communicable diseases" thing?

I don't know if there's been a miscommunication or misunderstanding of what I've said what but you guys can't possibly be suggesting that the document is a sufficient plan of attack for what we have experienced so far? It doesn't come close. We're pretty clearly having to nut through this whole process with our best effort and adapt it as we go. International border controls to this degree? never happened before. police-run checkpoints at state borders? also never happened. software development to assist in tracing people at this level? also a first. state-wide check-in apps? same. social-distancing systems and limits set in almost every industry across the country? Yes, first for that also. large scale working from home arrangements? first. remote learning for students? same. What we've been through so far is unprecedented for us. We have no playbook for it, we haven't done this before so we have no experience to fall back on. Once the whole thing is done we will have valuable data about what worked and what didn't work, and we'll be able to create a strategy that we can enact very quickly if this ever happens again.

The document that you guys are referring to doesn't even come close. If you're trying to say that the government deserves the criticism it's receiving because of an INFLUENZA strategy guide, then I don't know what else to say. I can't argue with you about it because I just can't grasp why anyone would think that's sufficient instruction for the country to follow given what we've had to face and learn.

**cs123** · 01-07-2021, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leesa

I don't know if there's been a miscommunication or misunderstanding of what I've said what but you guys can't possibly be suggesting that the document is a sufficient plan of attack for what we have experienced so far? It doesn't come close. We're pretty clearly having to nut through this whole process with our best effort and adapt it as we go. International border controls to this degree? never happened before. police-run checkpoints at state borders? also never happened. software development to assist in tracing people at this level? also a first. state-wide check-in apps? same. social-distancing systems and limits set in almost every industry across the country? Yes, first for that also. large scale working from home arrangements? first. remote learning for students? same. What we've been through so far is unprecedented for us. We have no playbook for it, we haven't done this before so we have no experience to fall back on. Once the whole thing is done we will have valuable data about what worked and what didn't work, and we'll be able to create a strategy that we can enact very quickly if this ever happens again.

The document that you guys are referring to doesn't even come close. If you're trying to stay that the government deserves the criticism it's receiving because of an INFLUENZA strategy guide, then I don't know what else to say. I can't argue with you about it because I just can't grasp why anyone would think that's sufficient instruction for the country to follow.

Firstly, I am not criticising the government. Any of them at all. I think they have done well. They all had plans regardless of whether you think they were good. They had comprehensive plans.

And to address you other point

International border controls to this degree? never happened before. police-run checkpoints at state borders?

https://www.naa.gov.au/blog/closed-b...-flu-australia

Quote:

Preparing for the pandemic
Australia remained free of Spanish flu throughout 1918 thanks to our strong quarantine measures. Ships arriving from infected countries had to quarantine for 7 days, with patients subject to ‘daily thermometer parades and daily inhalation with steam plus two per cent zinc sulphate solution along recognised lines’.

But as the virus wreaked havoc across the world, Australia had to prepare for an outbreak. Lacking a federal health department, the Commonwealth government summoned each state’s health minister, chief medical officer and other medical officials to a conference in Melbourne in late November 1918.

Among the conference resolutions was an agreement that a state government must notify the Commonwealth government as soon as they detected a case of Spanish flu. The Commonwealth would then take control of all traffic in and out of the state. Residents would need a permit to leave, except for those living within ten miles of the state border, who could travel back and forth as long as there were no cases in their area.

The virus arrives
Australia’s first cases of Spanish flu were detected in Melbourne in mid-January 1919. But the Victorian health department didn’t report these cases to the Commonwealth for about a week.

By the time Victoria was declared an infected area on 28 January, there were 350 infections in the state and the virus had already spread by train to Sydney.

The Sun newspaper in Sydney published a scathing editorial, declaring:

Melbourne has no cause to congratulate itself upon the part it has played. Nero fiddled while Rome burnt, and the health authorities of Melbourne have fiddled with new names for a well-known pandemic disease while Melbourne became infected and in turn infected other capital cities.

With the virus in Australia’s two most populous states, gatherings were discouraged and theatres, hotels, dance halls and churches were closed. People began regularly inhaling antiseptic fumes and wearing masks in public – even though the Commonwealth Director of Quarantine thought that masks were ‘useless and even dangerous’.

Queensland goes rogue
New South Wales’ status as an infected state meant that only residents living within 10 miles of the border were allowed to cross into Queensland.

But the Queensland Government thought the 10-mile buffer lines were ‘undefined and unguarded’, presenting a risk that Queenslanders could cross into New South Wales, become infected and return to spread the virus anywhere in the state.

On 1 February, Queensland closed its southern border to everyone, even people living inside the 10 mile buffer zone. This was a clear breach of the November agreement, and a few days later the Commonwealth renounced the agreement, leaving the states to handle their own quarantine and restrictions at land borders. (The Commonwealth continued to control quarantine at ports.)

Queensland police were stationed at crossings along the border to enforce mandatory examinations and detain and isolate anyone who might be infected.

The sudden closure of the northern border left many Queenslanders stranded in New South Wales. The situation was particularly bad at Tenterfield, the last railway stop before the Queensland border. Around 700 people on trains from Sydney were ordered to stay there, leading to a temporary quarantine camp being set up in the showgrounds. Some passengers accepted rail passes back to Sydney, while the rest spent 7 days in a tent before they were allowed to enter Queensland.

Queensland’s hard-line approach kept them free of the Spanish flu for several months. But in May 1919 the virus was detected in Queensland, and the state government reluctantly reopened the border with New South Wales.

Fair dinkum... you crack me up

01-07-2021, 04:19 PM

You're just grasping at straws. I think you know quite well that what we've encountered during this pandemic is new for us and that afterwards we'll have a better idea of what works and what doesn't.

**cs123** · 01-07-2021, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leesa

you're just grasping at straws. I think you know quite well that what we've encountered during this pandemic is new for us and that afterwards we'll have a better idea of what works and what doesn't.

lol....

**Ross 1** · 01-07-2021, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leesa

I don't know if there's been a miscommunication or misunderstanding of what I've said what but you guys can't possibly be suggesting that the document is a sufficient plan of attack for what we have experienced so far? It doesn't come close. We're pretty clearly having to nut through this whole process with our best effort and adapt it as we go. International border controls to this degree? never happened before. police-run checkpoints at state borders? also never happened. software development to assist in tracing people at this level? also a first. state-wide check-in apps? same. social-distancing systems and limits set in almost every industry across the country? Yes, first for that also. large scale working from home arrangements? first. remote learning for students? same. What we've been through so far is unprecedented for us. We have no playbook for it, we haven't done this before so we have no experience to fall back on. Once the whole thing is done we will have valuable data about what worked and what didn't work, and we'll be able to create a strategy that we can enact very quickly if this ever happens again.

The document that you guys are referring to doesn't even come close. If you're trying to say that the government deserves the criticism it's receiving because of an INFLUENZA strategy guide, then I don't know what else to say. I can't argue with you about it because I just can't grasp why anyone would think that's sufficient instruction for the country to follow given what we've had to face and learn.

No miscommunication, I don't think you are getting the point that there was a national plan in place. Read CS123 link, admittedly all the way down to page 2 and click on the part that I copy and pasted and actually read it rather than dismiss it as all about the flu. It is pretty comprehensive and there is multiple parts you will have to read, so I will wait awhile for your reply.

01-07-2021, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross 1

No miscommunication, I don't think you are getting the point that there was a national plan in place. Read CS123 link, admittedly all the way down to page 2 and click on the part that I copy and pasted and actually read it rather than dismiss it as all about the flu. It is pretty comprehensive and there is multiple parts you will have to read, so I will wait awhile for your reply.

Not to cover what we've been dealing with, it doesn't even come close. I don't know why you think that is the case but you must be seeing something in that strategy that I'm not.

**Ross 1** · 01-07-2021, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leesa

Not to cover what we've been dealing with, it doesn't even come close. I don't know why you think that is the case but you must be seeing something in that strategy that I'm not.

This is the part I am referring to https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/...ohp-cdplan.htm
Page 2 first link. Contained there in is a least a dozen links to the plans for communicable diseases. Hopefully that helps you see what I am reading into it.

01-07-2021, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross 1

This is the part I am referring to https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/...ohp-cdplan.htm
Page 2 first link. Contained there in is a least a dozen links to the plans for communicable diseases. Hopefully that helps you see what I am reading into it.

Where are the bits about working from home? remote learning? minimising outbreaks in aged care? setting up quarantine sections within hospitals? quarantine hotels? transporting potentially infected people? managing redzones? tracking people across borders? limiting the numbers of people that can be at funerals/weddings? manufacturing vaccines in short spaces of time?
I can only suggest that you go right back and re-read everything that I've said because I don't think you understand what I've been saying.

edit: and it was created in 2016, how could it possibly cover everything that would be needed in an pandemic that hadn't even begun yet?

CoupeKing · 01-07-2021, 05:56 PM

I don't wear a mask anymore, unless asked to by 'staff' etc, and that's just to avoid confrontation.

Anyway, I was just about to enter the supermarket and a young tradie with all his work gear hanging on his back pack and hip enters first and heads towards the beer section and this old guy had a go at him. I couldn't hear what he said but it was clearly about him not wearing a mask. Tradie does an arm-gesture (clearly telling him to *&^& off), pays for his beer then left - I hung around hoping it would escalate.

That old guy was overweight and purchased a pack of smokes and he's worried about Covid? LMAO. One born every minute.

**Ross 1** · 01-07-2021, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leesa

Where are the bits about working from home? remote learning? minimising outbreaks in aged care? setting up quarantine sections within hospitals? quarantine hotels? transporting potentially infected people? managing redzones? tracking people across borders? limiting the numbers of people that can be at funerals/weddings? manufacturing vaccines in short spaces of time?
I can only suggest that you go right back and re-read everything that I've said because I don't think you understand what I've been saying.

edit: and it was created in 2016, how could it possibly cover everything that would be needed in an pandemic that hadn't even begun yet?

https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/519F9392797E2DDCCA257D47001B9948/$File/Social-2019.PDF

It covers it, here is the link for
2 Social distancing measures for pandemic influenza .......................................... 3
2.1 Proactive school closure .................................................. ........................... 3
2.2 Reactive school closure .................................................. ............................ 4
2.3 Workplace closure .................................................. .................................... 5
2.4 Working from home .................................................. ................................. 5
2.5 Voluntary isolation of cases .................................................. ..................... 6
2.6 Voluntary quarantine of contacts.......................................... ...................... 7
2.7 Cancellation of mass gatherings .................................................. ............... 7

https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/519F9392797E2DDCCA257D47001B9948/$File/Social-2019.PDF

If you click on links to different sections it is pretty comprehensive. I have spoon fed you all the links, try reading the thing. This barely touches a fraction of it, some people have obviously put a lot of thought into it. Before you think of another example try and find it the report. The only thing I haven't seen is a mention of toilet paper panic buying spree but I suppose they didn't see that one coming.
The whole point of a plan is to preempt what might happen in the future, so it was written in 2016, are they expected to plan in advance for something that is already happening?

**GasoLane** · 01-07-2021, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

I don't wear a mask anymore, unless asked to by 'staff' etc, and that's just to avoid confrontation.

Anyway, I was just about to enter the supermarket and a young tradie with all his work gear hanging on his back pack and hip enters first and heads towards the beer section and this old guy had a go at him. I couldn't hear what he said but it was clearly about him not wearing a mask. Tradie does an arm-gesture (clearly telling him to *&^& off), pays for his beer then left - I hung around hoping it would escalate.

That old guy was overweight and purchased a pack of smokes and he's worried about Covid? LMAO. One born every minute.

Just out of curiosity what state are you in and is mask wearing indoors the law where you are?

01-07-2021, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross 1

https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/519F9392797E2DDCCA257D47001B9948/$File/Social-2019.PDF

It covers it, here is the link for
2 Social distancing measures for pandemic influenza .......................................... 3
2.1 Proactive school closure .................................................. ........................... 3
2.2 Reactive school closure .................................................. ............................ 4
2.3 Workplace closure .................................................. .................................... 5
2.4 Working from home .................................................. ................................. 5
2.5 Voluntary isolation of cases .................................................. ..................... 6
2.6 Voluntary quarantine of contacts.......................................... ...................... 7
2.7 Cancellation of mass gatherings .................................................. ............... 7

https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/519F9392797E2DDCCA257D47001B9948/$File/Social-2019.PDF

If you click on links to different sections it is pretty comprehensive. I have spoon fed you all the links, try reading the thing. This barely touches a fraction of it, some people have obviously put a lot of thought into it. Before you think of another example try and find it the report. The only thing I haven't seen is a mention of toilet paper panic buying spree but I suppose they didn't see that one coming.
The whole point of a plan is to preempt what might happen in the future, so it was written in 2016, are they expected to plan in advance for something that is already happening?

I don't know what your screen looked like but the link you listed earlier doesn't take me to any page or document that links the PDF you've linked above. It just takes me to one, this one, and there are no links within it or on page 2 to direct anywhere else: https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/7A38C92C483C8B77CA25805E001A402D/$File/CDPLAN.pdf

That aside, the social distancing one that you've listed still doesn't outline a plan that can be implemented. It's a discussion about the benefits/outcomes of proactive and reactive actions in influenza outbreaks but it's not enough to cover what I'm talking about.
Schools were not set up to be able to instantly enact learn-from-home policies, we had to learn that and will be ready next time.
For workplace closures it actually says "Proactive workplace closure is not considered as a measure due to <blah>" but we know that's not the case with covid. Almost the whole country has proactively closed workplaces and sent people home to work. And even then, many workplaces were unprepared and IT staff had to scramble to meet needs. Now that we've learned from it, we'll be ready next time on that front also. There are heaps more that I could go on with but I think you get the idea.

Do you see what I'm saying? All of our efforts have nuances that we've had to learn as we went along. The covidsafe app, I doubt that's going to be mentioned in any of your articles but that was a lesson we had to learn also.
We didn't just have a list pre-prepared that we could follow. Almost everything we've had to date we've had to figure out a way forward. The next time it comes around, we'll know not to attempt a covidsafe app because it's not effective enough. We'll know not to trust paper-based sign-ins for people because people lie. We'll know to enact digital sign-ins because they're more effective. We'll know how many people to let into the country, whether they should be staying in medihotels or hospitals, and who should be permitted to transport them. We'll also know not to use private security to run hotels for quarantine hotels. All of that learned experience will form part of a plan and we'll be better prepared next time.

If that still doesn't make sense then I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

**Ross 1** · 01-07-2021, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leesa

If that still doesn't make sense then I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Sounds like a good idea, cheers.

Mulva · 01-07-2021, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumen8

SA Chief Health officer dismissed vaccination rates as 'minor point': Kenny

Sky News host Chris Kenny says the SA Chief Health officer Nicola Spurrier "dismissed" the "fundamental question" surrounding the country's COVID response as a "minor point".

We watched that conference live at work and everyone thought that Sky guy came across as a total dick - not just with Nicola, with Marshall too. Even colleagues that are Sky-devotees thought he was out of line and just spoiling for a fight - trying to push his own narrative no matter what they said. Then driving home heard plenty on the radio echoing same sentiments.

He's lucky he wasn't asking questions of Commissioner Stevens as he would have had his **** handed to him in no uncertain terms.

EDIT: Just watched Sky's selectively edited package in that linked video - I notice they have cut all the bits where he made a fool of himself, which was majority of what went on.

Like seriously, he's unpacking a press conference in which they reported 5 cases but we are not going into lockdown, and he literally then says "They are on a hair-trigger here in South Australia; they will go into lockdown in this state if there are one or two cases." In fairness to him 5 cases is not 1 or 2 cases, so maybe he is right - maybe 1 or 2 cases we'll lockdown, but not for 3+ cases??

pottery beige · 01-07-2021, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

I don't wear a mask anymore, unless asked to by 'staff' etc, and that's just to avoid confrontation.

Anyway, I was just about to enter the supermarket and a young tradie with all his work gear hanging on his back pack and hip enters first and heads towards the beer section and this old guy had a go at him. I couldn't hear what he said but it was clearly about him not wearing a mask. Tradie does an arm-gesture (clearly telling him to *&^& off), pays for his beer then left - I hung around hoping it would escalate.

That old guy was overweight and purchased a pack of smokes and he's worried about Covid? LMAO. One born every minute.

high five tradie

T3rminator · 01-07-2021, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ross 1

This is the part I am referring to https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/...ohp-cdplan.htm
Page 2 first link. Contained there in is a least a dozen links to the plans for communicable diseases. Hopefully that helps you see what I am reading into it.

A kiwi schooling us on our own response plan

.

Appreciate all the references cs123 and Ross1. Have skimmed some of it, finding it an interesting read as it relates to some of the day job, although not health related here.

Trendseeker · 01-07-2021, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leesa

I dunno Trendseeker, I don't think an outbreak in 1919 counts.

“The 1918 influenza pandemic was the most severe pandemic in recent history.”
“It is estimated that about 500 million people or one-third of the world's population became infected with this virus. The number of deaths was estimated to be at least 50 million worldwide with about 675,000 occurring in the United States.”

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-res...emic-h1n1.html

jmack · 01-07-2021, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T3rminator

A kiwi schooling us on our own response plan

.

Appreciate all the references cs123 and Ross1. Have skimmed some of it, finding it an interesting read as it relates to some of the day job, although not health related here.

tiny bit racial there,open slather on here lately