Holden closure

[Rodge]

au3xr6 / Pottery beige I'm not taking sides but please, it would be good if this thread wasn't locked at a time like this don't you think...

I think one needs to be careful how they interpret the information thus far. From what I have read, Holden have said they will stop production and reduce engineering by 2017. They have not said production will stop in 2017 (it may happen alot sooner). After all, the government is not going to be providing them the money they need to be profitable, so every year they keep going, sales drop, workers slack off, and it adds 10's of millions to redundancy payments.

Good point, I suspect GM will try and tie the length of their remaining tenure to the amount of subsidies they receive.

[au2000]

Originally Posted by EF_6

Its not Holdens fault this is all about GM in the United States of America!

Possibly because thers no more gov funding so they've just pulled the pin!

from GM's press release..

GM Chairman and CEO Dan Akerson. “The decision to end manufacturing in Australia reflects the perfect storm of negative influences the automotive industry faces in the country, including the sustained strength of the Australian dollar, high cost of production, small domestic market and arguably the most competitive and fragmented auto market in the world.”

i see 4 reasons there... not just based on fed government handouts & anyone who thinks that the fed gov stance of late is the only reason they are kidding themselves. no matter how its come about, its a shame.

[WayneHadfield]

Originally Posted by GT2

Where in the world can you set up a company and make a product that the market isn't particularly keen on, not turn a profit, and ask local tax payers for a subsidy so that you can return a profit to your parent company back home?

Pretty much every country in the world with an automotive manufacturing base.

[stevz]

2013 = The beginning of the end of Australia.

What can I say. I saw this coming but I guess I didn't want to believe it. Who even 5 years ago could have imagined an Australia without Holden or Ford?
Who can blame them though? They can see that the brain dead Australian public is fixated on buying cheap imported garbage and nothing is going to change that. Combined with an arrogant, inept and clueless government that is unwilling to negotiate, its easy to see why they are jumping from the sinking ship which is Australia.
We are headed for a major implosion in this country that will make the depression of the 1930's seem like a minor blip. The smart people can see it, the stupid and ignorant wil continue to deny it until it hits them hard where it hurts.
So long to the Australian Automotive industry. You were great while you lasted and gave us some cracking products that will never be replicated by anyone again. This country is going to be a miserable place without you.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by aualright

Sounds like you adhere to the beliefs of 70% of media in Australia...News Ltd, that is. Your rant is Rupert 101 but at least you believe what you want.

****

So I guess the stuff appearing in "Ruperts news" about the unions leaning on Toyota is just another media beat-up? As it hardly seems to be worth a mention to Fairfax/ABC.

[TC200six]

Originally Posted by FPV+fteT3

Here is link

http://www.news.com.au/finance/busin...-1226780720596

I go to watch the video on that link and a Ford ad plays.

I think the shouting from the Labor MPs while the Nationals MP was speaking is silly. They couldn't save Ford, so I find it pathetic that they blame the other party for not saving Holden.

[JG34JA]

RIP Aussie auto industry, thank you for so many fantastic indigenous products, thank you for tuning toward this country's roads, simple rugged and inexpensive to repair drivetrains, thank you for Aussie Muscle, thank you for the ride!

Stevz got in a lot of trouble in another thread through suggesting that buyers of imports were fools (they are not) - but for our country the sum total of this action has been extremely foolish.

With UK friends over currently, the first thing that was said about cars was "We noticed you had so many fantastic cars here, V8's, 'utes' and all that, we have nothing like these," - it's particularly bitter timing for this announcement to take place.

Maybe from the ashes we can see Aussie owned, smart, small, tech'd, low-overhead auto producers making things like the Ute, for a global niche market and free from Detroit approval. The skillsets are there...

[Mighty Reds]

The rumours of Ford closing had been around for a good 10 years before they decided to pull the plug, Holden on the other hand seems to have only come about in the last 6 months or so.

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Because Toyota don't develop any cars here. Losing a bunch of low skilled production line jobs isn't a good thing of course, but quite different to losing a bunch of production line jobs AND high skilled, high paid engineering and design jobs. Ford and Holden have contributed more to this country than Toyota ever have or will.

your arguments fair for Ford but how many Australian designed holdens is there?? research this. there is more Australian designed Falcons then what there is Holdens. what does that tell you?? Ford got the raw end of the stick, just because Holden is seen as more Australian

[ltd]

That's hilariously funny. In a thread which is very sad I didn't expect to see something funny.


As for Holden, it's the same with Ford and will be with Toyota. Whilst terrible for those affected it was always going to happen. There are several reasons as to why I believe it was inevitable, it's just a sad indictment on our country that those supposed to represent us at all levels have done such a poor job.

We are in a global market which has been developing ever since the reduction and in some cases abolition of protections for our industries. This is in no way a political thing, as both sides of governments have done it since the 70's.
Unions have also played a major part especially in Holden's demise as they have become an incubator for the ALP and the ALP have acquiesced to their demands far too readily - giving subsidy to the extent of forming dependence whilst not setting conditions on the taxpayers funds has fostered an uncompetitive environment. When the forensic analysis of Holden and it's corporate structure is given the light of day some of the allowances and entitlements of both management and line workers will surprise even the most ardent of the true-believers. There's a reason why Bob Hawke took on the unions in the 1980's, and quite a bit of the culture he broke in the 80's is still alive albeit unwell after today's announcement in Holden.

I have worked for several months for a US company and frankly, the pay rates, conditions and allowances we receive and expect here are not the norm in the rest of the world. Yes, we have an unbelievably high cost of living compared with the rest of the world but we simply cannot compete with our artificially high costs here.
Every single wage claim lodged and granted raising the minimum wage has created an inflationary effect where prices are adjusted accordingly based on the higher input costs however, the adjustment is always a little higher than the impost and as such, the actual value of the dollar to the consumer has lessened and lessened. Yes we got paid more, but we were able to purchase less. Things such as devaluing the dollar cannot work and asking some to take a pay-cut is equally impractical.

The final ingredient of this perfect storm has been the rise of Asian manufacturing, as we have simply become too expensive here. I wish it weren't true but it is.
We are no longer an island, the rest of the world knows about us (except Americans) and we know of the rest of the world thanks to the internet. Unless successive governments actually did something to give incentive to Australians to buy Australian made through tarriffs or tax concessions, the rest of the world was always going to dump their product here at the behest of the viability of Australian operations.

A sad day indeed, and terrible timing just before Christmas.

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

So which current Holden is sold as a daewoo somewhere else?

what cars are most of Holdens line up based on at the moment??

[zipping]

Another sad day for the Australian auto industry

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by Mighty Reds

The rumours of Ford closing had been around for a good 10 years before they decided to pull the plug, Holden on the other hand seems to have only come about in the last 6 months or so.

The rumours of Holden's closure only started once Ford Australia announced their closure earlier this year.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by analright

Sounds like you adhere to the beliefs of 70% of media in Australia...News Ltd, that is. Your rant is Rupert 101 but at least you believe what you want.

****

Bawhahahahahahahaha.
You know you can get a pill for your persecution complex right?

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by stevz

2013 = The beginning of the end of Australia.

What can I say. I saw this coming but I guess I didn't want to believe it. Who even 5 years ago could have imagined an Australia without Holden or Ford?
Who can blame them though? They can see that the brain dead Australian public is fixated on buying cheap imported garbage and nothing is going to change that.

Surely you don't really believe this?
Circa 70% of Aussie built vehicles are sold to fleets and this really hasn't changed for many years.

Top selling car in Aus is usually the Mazda 3/Corolla. Top selling Ford in this country is the Aussie designed Ranger. Are these cheap imported garbage?

Combined with an arrogant, inept and clueless government that is unwilling to negotiate, its easy to see why they are jumping from the sinking ship which is Australia.

they been in power for all of 5 minutes and you have come to this conclusion already?

Perhaps the money poured into the automotive industry could be redirected to a more sustainable & profitable industry?

We are headed for a major implosion in this country that will make the depression of the 1930's seem like a minor blip. The smart people can see it, the stupid and ignorant wil continue to deny it until it hits them hard where it hurts.

Who are the smart people in Aus who can see it and who are the stupid/arrogant people who can't?

So long to the Australian Automotive industry. You were great while you lasted and gave us some cracking products that will never be replicated by anyone again. This country is going to be a miserable place without you.

The Aus automotive industry did a LOT with the little money they had. Fortunately, Ford Aus will continue doing this with it's design centre, would be great if Holden design could remain.

[Itsme]

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor...211-2z5mp.html

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

before anyone starts throwing political stones remember the failure of our auto industry is the fault of everyone out there driving an import where a local car would have done the same job . the blame lies with the buying public not any politician or party . the manufacturers are not to blame either they hung on longer than they should trying to keep things alive but could only loose so much money.

and I guess those how brought a Land cruiser or Patrol are to blame when the need a true four wheel drive??? As much as I hate the Prius it gets better fuel economy then any Australian car and I sure as hell would buy a Corolla or a Mazda 3 (yuk) over a cruze. people will buy what suits them best and while yes the Falcon and Commodore have been good cars both are not as pracatable as the SUVs are. Times have changed. theres more selection now. Its not anyone's fault really except the fact that the cost of manufacturing these cars here is just not viable anymore. they don't sell as well as they do ten years ago because people aren't interested in them as much anymore... I know its sad but its the truth

[jpblue1000]

also just confirmed on radio news

JP

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by stevz

2013 = The beginning of the end of Australia.

What can I say. I saw this coming but I guess I didn't want to believe it. Who even 5 years ago could have imagined an Australia without Holden or Ford?
.......

Either I'm older than you, or they're not teaching History anymore.

Holden almost shut the doors in the late 80's. The then Federal Government introduced the Button plan and other changes which helped persuade the car industry to model share and export - Holden-Toyota, Ford-Nissan.

The plan worked, but the industry got lazy and stopped their progress.

If you look back further, the writing has been on the wall since the late 70's when Chrysler could not compete even with the help from Mitsubishi.

Some times we need to face the hard facts - Australia can not produce a profitable car industry. We're better off looking at businesses we are good at and chase those.

What's happening now reminds me of England and their once strong coal industry. The had to shut it down, with many a doomsayer, now look at England - strong in the service and finance industry.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Good point, I suspect GM will try and tie the length of their remaining tenure to the amount of subsidies they receive.

They have to stay to a particular date.

Originally Posted by wildrider

your arguments fair for Ford but how many Australian designed holdens is there?? research this. there is more Australian designed Falcons then what there is Holdens. what does that tell you?? Ford got the raw end of the stick, just because Holden is seen as more Australian

Ford will still have R&D here. They don't need a production line for it as R&D cars don't get put on the production line till job one (Falcon/Terri do but this is a different case). All Holden have is R&D for Commodore so all they'll be now is a marketing department....which could easily be exported if required.

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by wildrider

and I guess those how brought a Land cruiser or Patrol are to blame when the need a true four wheel drive??? As much as I hate the Prius it gets better fuel economy then any Australian car and I sure as hell would buy a Corolla or a Mazda 3 (yuk) over a cruze. people will buy what suits them best and while yes the Falcon and Commodore have been good cars both are not as pracatable as the SUVs are. Times have changed. theres more selection now. Its not anyone's fault really except the fact that the cost of manufacturing these cars here is just not viable anymore. they don't sell as well as they do ten years ago because people aren't interested in them as much anymore... I know its sad but its the truth

Spot on. And that's what some on here can't seem to understand. Times have changed.................And as for the country being doomed, what a load of crap........In Qld alone, what is planned up here in the next few years is staggering.............

[Professor Farnsworth]

This thread has nearly served its purpose. Try your best to not have it turn to the inevitable pile of crap that it may.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

Spot on. And that's what some on here can't seem to understand. Times have changed.................And as for the country being doomed, what a load of crap........In Qld alone, what is planned up here in the next few years is staggering.............

Too true.
Not many are ready to embrace change, they harp back to the alleged "glory days" and don't want to adapt, change or see opportunity.
Then they spend the rest of their lives extremely bitter and whining about it to all and sundry - akin to suffering depression.

[Bowser22]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

Spot on. And that's what some on here can't seem to understand. Times have changed.................And as for the country being doomed, what a load of crap........ In Qld alone, what is planned up here in the next few years is staggering.

If only that was the case down here in Vicco

[Rodge]

I am sad for all Australians and Kiwi's today. We are losing the iconic Australian large car forever. For the life of me I cannot understand why all parties couldn't have taken a more pragmatic approach to protecting and neuturing what could have been a viable industry for many years to come.

[Whitey-AMG]

The biggest hit will come from all those local supporting industries / suppliers. Estimated 50,000 jobs.

If TOYOTA pulls the pin as well - it will be a very challenging 3-5 years for the Australian economy and employment competition.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Either I'm older than you, or they're not teaching History anymore.

Holden almost shut the doors in the late 80's. The then Federal Government introduced the Button plan and other changes which helped persuade the car industry to model share and export - Holden-Toyota, Ford-Nissan.

The plan worked, but the industry got lazy and stopped their progress.

If you look back further, the writing has been on the wall since the late 70's when Chrysler could not compete even with the help from Mitsubishi.

Some times we need to face the hard facts - Australia can not produce a profitable car industry. We're better off looking at businesses we are good at and chase those.

What's happening now reminds me of England and their once strong coal industry. The had to shut it down, with many a doomsayer, now look at England - strong in the service and finance industry.

Not 100% correct. The Button plan was introduced before Holden got into financial trouble. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Button_car_plan.

The Button plan initially worked and in the 1990s the local industry was going great. However NONE of the political parties would revisit it when it was required to determine if it needed any tinkering. The Button plan was released in 1984 and NOBODY back then could have seen the collapse of communism, the increase in global trading and the rise of China and other low cost countries. The Howard government should have revisited the Button plan in the late 1990s or early 2000s but did not do so and this is the inevitable result.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by Rodge

I am sad for all Australians and Kiwi's today. We are losing the iconic Australian large car forever. For the life of me I cannot understand why all parties couldn't have taken a more pragmatic approach to protecting and neuturing what could have been a viable industry for many years to come.

The ALP/Green alliance are still very pro-active, the CO2 tax has worked a treat - MISSION ACCOMPLISHED !

And they won't allow the repeal of this cancerous tax - go figure, who exactly do they support?

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by cheap

The ALP/Green alliance are still very pro-active, the CO2 tax has worked a treat - MISSION ACCOMPLISHED !

And they won't allow the repeal of this cancerous tax - go figure, who exactly do they support?

Oh dear, you may as well lock it now.............

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by cheap

The ALP/Green alliance are still very pro-active, the CO2 tax has worked a treat - MISSION ACCOMPLISHED !

And they won't allow the repeal of this cancerous tax - go figure, who exactly do they support?

I'm with you mate, we have the crazy CO2 tax here in N.Z. one of the greenest countries in the world but we pay CO2 tax, its complete B.S.