Future of Ford and Holden Could be Revealed in Detroit this week

[cardinalred]

If the speculation is wrong, Ford should come out and say so. Otherwise they will just perpetuate the rumour and the Falcon will suffer the same fate as the 380. Unfortunately maybe they are not outright denying the rumour because it is true and the best they can offer is a promise to make another announcement sometime in the future.

[bangm001]

If Ford/FPV bring in ALL Wheel Drive with the ability to split the power wth a dial to what the driver wants, from something like 90%rear - 10% to the front, and everything in between, together teamed up with the I6 or the S/C coyote, id reckon we'd still have some pretty fun times ahead!!

[Road_Warrior]

I now have it on pretty good authority that the Mustang, or a Mustang-based product, is definitely going to Australia as a 'consolation prize' if this comes to pass.

I see.

[Brazen]

I still find it odd that Mays would say that the Falcon is going AWD when so many on here are adament that its staying RWD, is he trying to put the competitors off? My gut says its going to the Taurus platform.

Even Mually, Burella and Kuzcak have hinted at it.

[jpd80]

hypothetical,
FG II sees the introduction of:
1) Ecoboost I-4 Falcon that averages 8 litres/100 km,
2) LILPG version that that averages10.6 litres/100km
3) 2.7 litre V6 diesel that averages 7 litres/100 km


All talk about the old inefficient Falcon on Rear Wheel Drive
evaporates and people look at large cars with fresh eyes.

[SteveJH]

If the Falcon goes to FWD I guess my parents would have to replace the BFII (if they still have it) with either a late FGII or a Commodore.

Afterall, there is a reason they put the towbar on the XR6 rather then on the Mondeo TDCi......

[davez104]

Originally Posted by jpd80

hypothetical,
FG II sees the introduction of:
1) Ecoboost I-4 Falcon that averages 8 litres/100 km,
2) LILPG version that that averages10.6 litres/100km
3) 2.7 litre V6 diesel that averages 7 litres/100 km


All talk about the old inefficient Falcon on Rear Wheel Drive
evaporates and people look at large cars with fresh eyes.

The only problem with all that is that if Ford can get those figures from a car as large as the Falcon, then other manufacturers can better them by a long shot with smaller cars. Large cars will always be thirstier than small cars, you'll never escape that as physics says it takes more energy to move a large object than a small one.

It will all come down to what Ford thinks will be the most economically viable way forward. If it thinks that sacrificing a few sales of the RWD Falcon will cost less than the money it saves from having one global FWD/AWD platform, then that's what will probably happen. They are in business to make money like everyone else.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Afterall, there is a reason they put the towbar on the XR6 rather then on the Mondeo TDCi......

What do residents in Europe, especially in the UK use to tow a trailer/caravan?

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by Wretched

What do residents in Europe, especially in the UK use to tow a trailer/caravan?

Besides the point really, we arent in Europe.

Short of a BMW, what RWD cars do they have available to do the job? ;)

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Besides the point really, we arent in Europe.

Short of a BMW, what RWD cars do they have available to do the job? ;)

Just asking what cars they would use over there if they don't have the RWD Falcodores that everyone MUST have to tow a trailer.

[JG34JA]

Originally Posted by Pistonbroke

I am a blue blood and don't want to see the Falcon just shrivel and die, and I don't want to see it transformed into a FWD puss box. If it is going to go, then hang up the nameplate. Falcon should always be synonymous with rear wheel drive and its racing heritage...

Taurus, hate the name. But I need a large car and would rather turn red than look at a large sedan FWD...

Families don't buy Mustangs. Personally, the taurus is like a camry...

I would rather look at a Commodore. Now that's sad...

Know how you feel and agree. There is another path, if you don't want to go red. Try a Jag. I personally think the XF looks stunning, but as there is a Falcon G6E Turbo in RWD with the inline 6 there's no need for it on my shopping list. If, however Falcon is replaced with a bloated camry clone, then it's time to shop upmarket, and keep the prestige RWD. An XJ Jag would be a joy to own as well. Or BMW/Merc/some Lexus if you want RWD.

Of course, these aren't cheap and there is the Falcon's absolute wild card: it is RWD, comfortable, powerful, big and affordable. Ford would be mad to replace such a product, but sales volumes for both blue and red RWD large sedans suggest people have taken leave of their senses in recent years...

*Extra: XJ Jag Australia: a quick carpoint check reveals 190-380K including some demonstrators, Canada: begins 88K. Both dollars are near parity. The staggering difference in price is subject for another blog methinks, but to be sure, at present Australian pricing the Falcon gets another tick.

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by jpd80

2) LILPG version that that averages10.6 litres/100km

The EcoLPI will have an official consumption figure of around 13L/100km.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

The EcoLPI will have an official consumption figure of around 13L/100km.

BS

[Road_Warrior]

From what information I have been able to glean from here and there I have worked out the following - provided that Ford chooses the FWD/AWD path, which at the moment, is still open to question:

The common old, garden variety Falcon (that is, everything from the XT through to the G6E) may be replaced by the next gen FWD/AWD large car. Lets call it D5 because that it what it will probably be. This car may even allow for a LWB version to replace the Fairlane and will be targeted at volume selling segments. The idea here is to chase Toyota, not necessarily Holden.

A derivative of the future Mustang platform (not the other way around) may be offered as a 'consolation prize' to compete in market segments where customers demand RWD, like FPV and the XR's. No idea about the ute, I would suggest that this is going to be consigned to history and its role assumed by the T6.

The GRWD idea is looking shaky at the moment. US Autoweek is quoting a senior Lincoln exec from the Detroit show who said that "there are no plans for a RWD Lincoln at this time".

Where the above proposal leaves the Broadmeadows assembly plant, I do not know. However my view is that you cannot have a world-class engineering, design and research centre without the intrinsic knowledge and capability to build cars to go along with it.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by JG34JA

Know how you feel and agree. There is another path, if you don't want to go red. Try a Jag. : a quick carpoint check reveals 190-380K including some demonstrators, .

pfft, how many of the guys here can afford to pay 200k for a car

[jamesson1980]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

From what information I have been able to glean from here and there I have worked out the following - provided that Ford chooses the FWD/AWD path, which at the moment, is still open to question:

The common old, garden variety Falcon (that is, everything from the XT through to the G6E) may be replaced by the next gen FWD/AWD large car. Lets call it D5 because that it what it will probably be. This car may even allow for a LWB version to replace the Fairlane and will be targeted at volume selling segments. The idea here is to chase Toyota, not necessarily Holden.

A derivative of the future Mustang platform (not the other way around) may be offered as a 'consolation prize' to compete in market segments where customers demand RWD, like FPV and the XR's. No idea about the ute, I would suggest that this is going to be consigned to history and its role assumed by the T6.

Are you saying that the full Falcon range from XT right up to the FPVs will each be tailor made to their target? Meaning there will be RWD, FWD, AWD, Diesel, LPGi, turbos, superchargers, 4s, 6s and 8s depending on what model you go for? Eg: an XT buyer will get a 4cyl or Diesel in a FWD, where as an XR8 buyer will get the same body shell with potentially a S/C V8 RWD or AWD and a few more bells and whistles. Doesn't this sorta defeat the whole product simplicity and $$$ saving strategy we've been speculating about?
Or perhaps I misunderstand all of this

[vztrt]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/98146/fo...inues-to-rage/

Ford Falcon front-wheel drive debate continues to rage
By Tim Beissmann | January 12th, 2011

More evidence emerged yesterday that the future of the Ford Falcon as we know it could be under threat from within Ford’s ranks.

Ford global design boss J Mays told reporters at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit that Falcon fans should not hold their breath waiting for a traditional rear-wheel drive architecture for the Blue Oval’s next large sedan.

The current generation Falcon is expected to remain on sale in its rear-wheel drive form until at least 2015, and beyond there it will adopt the brand’s global ‘One Ford’ strategy, where one large platform will be used to serve all markets.

If Ford was to discontinue the large rear-wheel drive platform, the most likely replacement for Falcon is the front- and all-wheel drive architecture currently underpinning the Taurus in North America.

Ford Australia has been relatively subdued in its reaction to Mays’ comments, admitting that the future of Falcon is a long-term issue and one that is far from decided.

“Development of the future-model Falcon is underway as part of Ford’s normal product development plans. Design and engineering proposals are currently being considered by the company’s teams but a plan has not yet been approved,” Ford Australia said in a statement.

“No decisions about the design nor on the platform have been made or locked in. At this point, it is too early to provide any specific details about future Falcon models.”

It is understood an internal decision on the layout of the next Falcon will be made in around six months.

The speculation is certainly not new. Discussion about the future of the Falcon has reared its head numerous times over recent years, and Mays’ comments are just the latest in the developing saga.

In 2008, Ford Motor Co. boss Alan Mulally flagged the potential of front- and all-wheel drive for Falcon.

In 2009, Ford Australia’s then-CEO Marin Burela confirmed the next generation Falcon would be a ‘world car’ drawing from a global architecture.

And last year, Mulally again emphasised the imminence of the brand’s ‘One Ford’ strategy, when media speculation was rife that the current FG Falcon could be the last.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

From what information I have been able to glean from here and there I have worked out the following - provided that Ford chooses the FWD/AWD path, which at the moment, is still open to question:

The common old, garden variety Falcon (that is, everything from the XT through to the G6E) may be replaced by the next gen FWD/AWD large car. Lets call it D5 because that it what it will probably be. This car may even allow for a LWB version to replace the Fairlane and will be targeted at volume selling segments. The idea here is to chase Toyota, not necessarily Holden.

A derivative of the future Mustang platform (not the other way around) may be offered as a 'consolation prize' to compete in market segments where customers demand RWD, like FPV and the XR's. No idea about the ute, I would suggest that this is going to be consigned to history and its role assumed by the T6.

The GRWD idea is looking shaky at the moment. US Autoweek is quoting a senior Lincoln exec from the Detroit show who said that "there are no plans for a RWD Lincoln at this time".

Where the above proposal leaves the Broadmeadows assembly plant, I do not know. However my view is that you cannot have a world-class engineering, design and research centre without the intrinsic knowledge and capability to build cars to go along with it.

Yep I reckon your pretty much spot on there, except for a LWB version. No chance I'd say.

I dont think theres any chance Ford wont choose the FWD/AWD path. Yeah, they've recently invested about $160 million on RWD drivetrains, but that doesn't mean they'll spend the $800 million - $1 billion required for an all new Falcon once the current generation is up for replacement in 2015 (if history is anything to go by, it'll be more like 2018 anyway)

Yes, this is all speculation, the entire thread is speculation. But if I was to have a bet, all my money would be on a FWD/AWD Falcon before the end of this decade.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Yep I reckon your pretty much spot on there, except for a LWB version. No chance I'd say.

I dont think theres any chance Ford wont choose the FWD/AWD path. Yeah, they've recently invested about $160 million on RWD drivetrains, but that doesn't mean they'll spend the $800 million - $1 billion required for an all new Falcon once the current generation is up for replacement in 2015 (if history is anything to go by, it'll be more like 2018 anyway)

Yes, this is all speculation, the entire thread is speculation. But if I was to have a bet, all my money would be on a FWD/AWD Falcon before the end of this decade.

Yeah I thought the next Falcon was going to be around 2017 anyway, plenty of time to recoup the current investments (especially with all the Green Car government support they received).



They should just ask the rental companies what they prefer, they are biggest buyers of Falcons by far.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by jamesson1980

Are you saying that the full Falcon range from XT right up to the FPVs will each be tailor made to their target? Meaning there will be RWD, FWD, AWD, Diesel, LPGi, turbos, superchargers, 4s, 6s and 8s depending on what model you go for? Eg: an XT buyer will get a 4cyl or Diesel in a FWD, where as an XR8 buyer will get the same body shell with potentially a S/C V8 RWD or AWD and a few more bells and whistles. Doesn't this sorta defeat the whole product simplicity and $$$ saving strategy we've been speculating about?
Or perhaps I misunderstand all of this

No - we're looking at 2 different cars here, and optioning will probably be the same then as now - you can't get LPG on an XR6 Turbo for example.

What I'm saying (don't forget we're talking about products 5 years in the future, all the whizzbang V8's and turbo 6's may not even exist then) is that the 'normal' Falcons might be replaced across the board with this FWD/AWD car, and that sport and high-end luxury type stuff might be replaced with a derivative of the future Mustang platform.

Thinking about it more, those FWD/AWD cars will probably remain badged as a Ford Falcon (or a Ford something) and the RWD cars may be badged as Lincolns, as Ford has expressed a desire for Lincoln to go global. If so, those cars will probably be imported.

LPG and diesel won't come into it, as the LPG option will probably die with the 4.0L I6 in 2016, and the Falcon isn't getting any diesel engine. All there will be is 4cyl ecoboost, standard n/a V6 and ecoboost V6, and possibly V8's in the other car.

But hey, I'm probably way off the mark. But ultimately it has got to come down to what plan Ford thinks will be able keep the lights on here.

[jpd80]

The way forward is a 7 litre/100 km V6 Diesel Falcon, no other technology
comes close to that public image, bang for bucks and easy driving torque.

[Nikked]

How is it that the Mustang moved from the Fox platform that was shared with other sedans and coupes, to a stand alone platform?

What of the 4 door mustang? Shouldn't this mean a GRWD platform is still needed?

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Nikked

How is it that the Mustang moved from the Fox platform that was shared with other sedans and coupes, to a stand alone platform?

What of the 4 door mustang? Shouldn't this mean a GRWD platform is still needed?

Not really, Ford has publicly said that Mustang will escape One Ford, the only model to do so. Lincoln also dosnt want a RWD car. GRWD has been dead for years.

Although who knows what the future holds, maybe Falcon and Mustang may be paired, it would be good if they could confirm it. GM has confirmed Commodore will be RWD at least into the 2020s.

[Nikked]

I hope so...


Worst case scenario, TT AWD Falcon?

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Brazen

GM has confirmed Commodore will be RWD at least into the 2020s.

In 2004 GM confirmed the GTO had a bright future, within a few years they canned it.

In 2007 GM confirmed the G8 had a bright future, in 2009 they canned it.

In 2007 GM confirmed the Holden Ute was to be exported to the US, not long after they cancelled it.

Anything GM says about anything to do with the commodore, has a lifespan of 6 months at the most.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

In 2004 GM confirmed the GTO had a bright future, within a few years they canned it.

In 2007 GM confirmed the G8 had a bright future, in 2009 they canned it.

In 2007 GM confirmed the Holden Ute was to be exported to the US, not long after they cancelled it.

Anything GM says about anything to do with the commodore, has a lifespan of 6 months at the most.

The GTO lived well past its use-by date, it was never going to be continued after the Monaro finished. The ute and G8 were cancelled due to the demise of Pontiac. The Ute and Commodore are still being built today (the basis of the Pontiac Ute and G8).

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Brazen

The ute and G8 were cancelled due to the demise of Pontiac.

And global credit chaos...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

The GTO lived well past its use-by date, it was never going to be continued after the Monaro finished. The ute and G8 were cancelled due to the demise of Pontiac. The Ute and Commodore are still being built today (the basis of the Pontiac Ute and G8).

Holden desperately tried to get Pontiac interested in a Zeta Monaro,
I recall a last ditched pitch at a production version of the Coupe 60.
RWd Buick Lucerne approved by Lutz but Buick chiefs had it nixed for a FWD replacement, still not there yet...
likewise the RWD Impala was similarly canceled and a FWD platform earmarked, still not there yet...

Caprice PPV was suggested nearly four years ago but nixed duel to projected lack of profit and interest....

[BroadyFord]

Future of Ford manufacturing in Australia looking extremely grim and terminal if you go by this article. What do you guys intepret from this?

Front-drive fate for Ford Falcon?

http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2011...d-falcon-23167

The history of Holden versus Ford rivalry is set to start a new chapter by the end of the decade as the Commodore and Falcon look likely to go in separate directions.

A senior Ford executive at the Detroit motor show has told Australian journalists overnight it was likely the next generation Falcon, due by 2017, will be a front-drive car, like the Toyota Camry.

Less than 24 hours earlier, the boss of Holden Mike Devereux repeated Holden's intentions for the Commodore to continue as a rear-drive sedan beyond 2020.

When a small group of Australian journalists asked Ford's global design chief, J Mays if the next Falcon would be rear-drive, he said: "Don't hold your breath."

Minutes later, unaware of Mays' comments, another group of Australian journalists asked the global boss of Ford, Alan Mulally, if there was any update on the plans for the 2017 replacement for the Falcon -- given Holden's announcement about taking its rear-drive formula beyond 2020.

"We love the Falcon," Mulally said. "We have nothing new to address today other than we love serving the Australian customer. We have nothing to report."

When quizzed further, he added: "I have never met more relentless people than the Australians," referring to the media, and was whisked away by his PR minder.

Ford has steadfastly refused to comment on the future of the Falcon since the media began asking questions a few years ago in the face of dwindling sales. Last year the Falcon recorded the weakest sales in the 50-year history of the nameplate, dipping below 30,000 for the first time ever.

If the factory is to close, Ford would not want to announce it until the last minute so as to not further weaken sales of the Falcon. When the future of Mitsubishi's Adelaide factory was cast in doubt, sales of its big six-cylinder sedan plummeted.

Mays' revelation places a new cloud over the future of Broadmeadows as a car- making facility because it means the Falcon and Territory will likely be replaced by the next generation Taurus and Explorer.

It would be uneconomical for Ford to make those models in Australia in the tens of thousands when Ford can make them in the hundreds of thousands in North America -- and export them to Australia free of any import tariffs under the Free Trade Agreement with North America.

The Carsales Network has been told by Ford officials in Detroit that all four vehicles – Falcon/Territory and Taurus/Explorer – will be due for replacement by 2016 and 2017, and that is the same timeframe that Ford is expected to introduce a new platform for such vehicles.

Mulally has been on record many times saying that Ford will put an end to model duplication globally. The Falcon is similar in size and philosophy to Taurus, and the Territory is similar in size and philosophy to the Explorer.

The problem for Broadmeadows is that it produced about 45,000 cars last year -- including Falcon sedan, wagon and ute and the Territory softroader -- while the industry regards 100,000 vehicles per annum as a break-even point for a car factory. Ford says it has factories around the world that make fewer vehicles each year than Australia -- but has so far declined to nominate them.

Ford has already announced that a small car is not viable at Broadmeadows -- it axed plans to build the Focus locally -- so it is difficult to see what car could replace the Falcon and Territory.

If Ford closed the Broadmeadows factory it would still retain its design and engineering centre and employees. Ford Australia led the development of the new generation Ranger pick-up that will be sold in 180 countries -- but made in Thailand.

Ford Australia will still likely be involved in the Falcon replacement, either with the design or development -- or both. Mays said that Ford Australia had entered a global design competition with other Ford design studios on the shape of the next Falcon.

The company was considering design submissions from Australia, the UK, Cologne and North America.

A decision on the next generation Falcon for 2017 is due in the next six months -- the same deadline for the Holden Commodore.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by davez104

The only problem with all that is that if Ford can get those figures from a car as large as the Falcon, then other manufacturers can better them by a long shot with smaller cars. Large cars will always be thirstier than small cars, you'll never escape that as physics says it takes more energy to move a large object than a small one.

It's not about small cars versus large cars.

it about the perception of thirst with a larger vehicle, take fuel economy out of the equation
or at least the buyer's radar and purchase price then becomes the more important determiner.
Why do people buy heavy SUVs but opt for diesels? to take fuel consumption out of the equation.
You watch Territory diesel sales soar....