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04-05-2014, 10:47 PM | #91 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: W.A.
Posts: 1,713
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Opens thread, looks in. Closes it quietly, tiptoes away...
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04-05-2014, 10:48 PM | #92 | |||
GT
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SYDNEY
Posts: 9,205
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the masses are the 3rd party, they form a union which marches over all , then implement a policy , and the cyle starts all over again |
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04-05-2014, 10:53 PM | #93 | ||
Wirlankarra yanama
Join Date: May 2006
Location: God's Country
Posts: 2,103
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Heck - if only just, if only just one of those +200 "we will be surplus" promises from Wayne Swan had some truthfulness ...
Last edited by GasoLane; 04-05-2014 at 11:29 PM. |
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04-05-2014, 10:54 PM | #94 | ||
GT
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SYDNEY
Posts: 9,205
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if only you were right . our AAA CREDIT RATING WOULDNT BE THERE IN OUR FACES THEN
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04-05-2014, 10:56 PM | #95 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,290
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The real truth is democracy and capitalism dont need to go hand in hand and if anything should be kept as separate as possible just like religion and democracy however both are unavoidable in real life. Capitalism's biggest flaw is theres no end to growth its either keep growing or stagnate and if continued growth means moving offshore cutting jobs, sending your money to tax havens ect. ala apple and google ect. then so be it they become so big there effectively beyond government control which is worrying in itself nothing should be allowed to become so big it becomes to big to fail. Just like one person should not be able to control so much money billionaires are unnecessary however can i think of a better way to impart wealth around to other less fortunate people no i cant but i know enough to know things have to change.
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04-05-2014, 10:58 PM | #96 | ||
Wirlankarra yanama
Join Date: May 2006
Location: God's Country
Posts: 2,103
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04-05-2014, 11:03 PM | #97 | ||
GT
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SYDNEY
Posts: 9,205
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TO BE HONEST . LIKE YOU I DONT KNOW !! I can only look at the facts , and if its as bad as tony , hockey , alan and hadley say , then our biggest burden on society @40 billion pa ,Is the pension !!! ohhhhh wait a minute , that's about to be surpassed by wealthy superannuation benifits surpassing 40billion to the top 10% of the nations wealthiest people paid by tax payers JEEZ , HOCKEY MUST'VE FORGOT TO MENTION THAT ONE !!!!
like you i have to listen to what i hear , and then look at the facts , like ASX , and COUNTRIES CREDIT RATING .these things are telling us we're doing quite well , the other our govt is trelling us we're all F'D |
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04-05-2014, 11:04 PM | #98 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,290
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The fact we have a aaa credit rating regardless of the political point scoring partys try to take the credit for it shows there is no budget emergency however it does make it easier for the current government to bringing in unpalatable policy's. As for the partys themselves they are all self serving entity's that would rather rip each other down and enforce there ideologues rather then enact long term thoughtful policy clive palmers just the newest self interested twat to join the game. Having a big cry because his rail road wasn't prioritized hes now using the classic technique of promising the world to get votes.
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04-05-2014, 11:05 PM | #99 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,699
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Quote:
Norway and other Scandinavian countries are perfect examples of working socialist type governments, they found an oil reserve and instead of pawning the asset off for some private tycoon to capitalize off and make billions (and to sequester in some offshore bank account/collapse the economy), the profit was injected into the country's pension/super program and all their citizens practically retire as millionaires. Millions of retired citizens also spending the money everyday to survive, ensuring the economy is well stimulated and the capitalist-esque backbone remains healthy. Howard would've sold it to opec in a heart beat and we would've received none of the profit. I don't see how that's good at all. Better than China but they're more corrupt than socialist, when I think socialist I look at the Scandinavian countries and not China, Russia, Germany etc.
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04-05-2014, 11:09 PM | #100 | ||
Trev
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Was Perth, now country Vic
Posts: 8,017
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As someone that grew up and lived most of my life in WA... And for the previous 100 years to that WA was a net benefactor that got back lots more than they put in so suck it up princess.
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Trev (FPV FG II GT-E thus the fully loaded burger with the lot as standard +Alpine/Dynamat fitout - 2 of only 4 ever made GT-E factory 9" rear rims - Michelin Pilot Supersports - Shockworks Suspension) |
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04-05-2014, 11:12 PM | #101 | ||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,554
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Ask a Russian person whether life was better in the good days of the USSR or the Russian Federation today with their "democracy".
Interesting answer because the ones I've spoken to said they preferred the USSR when times were "good" compared to Russia today. |
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04-05-2014, 11:33 PM | #102 | ||||
bitch lasagne
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Sonova Beach
Posts: 15,110
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Quote:
And someone on $80-100k is nowhere near the top of the food chain. Someone whose income is measured with at least seven digits, they are getting close. The ATO and govco in its current guise will never go after these people. Quote:
Tie the monetary unit to the economic output of the nation, have government be sufficiently big enough to provide for the essentials, but small enough for minimal taxation to be levied (I am speaking about import tariffs and tobacco, alcohol and drug excises) on the nation and budget crises become a thing of the past, infrastructure can be paid for without borrowing and the nation is incentivised as a whole to be productive and make full use of the brain power we are blessed with.
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Last edited by Trump; 04-05-2014 at 11:45 PM. |
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05-05-2014, 02:58 AM | #103 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Utah
Posts: 3,479
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Quote:
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05-05-2014, 03:08 AM | #104 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Queenstown
Posts: 626
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And, tax the companies they own. A religious group here owns a large company and pay no taxes. Classed as a "charity".
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2011 FG GTP 335 S/C. Auto, tiptronic. iPV ceramic headers, stainless hi flow cats and big bore, BMC filter, X3 tune, DBA T3 rotors, Roadhouse Performance pads. From Herrod; 100lb injectors, hi flow pump, Aeroflow fuel regulator, air to water intercooler, hi boost pulley kit, JLT breather. Hub dynoed at 598fwkw, 498rwkw, 959Nm torque, boost 10.62psi at 3750rpm (warm day). All done by iPV! Other rides; '21 Jaguar F-Pace, '21 Ford Ranger FX4-MAX. |
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05-05-2014, 03:14 AM | #105 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Queenstown
Posts: 626
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Democracy in Russia probably won't work well due to corruption which is part of their culture. Their experiment in communism which is the ultimate in socialism wasn't sustainable. That was brought to a head when Reagan, Lech Walesa, the Pope and Gorbachev did their thing and the USSR couldn't keep up as it was.
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2011 FG GTP 335 S/C. Auto, tiptronic. iPV ceramic headers, stainless hi flow cats and big bore, BMC filter, X3 tune, DBA T3 rotors, Roadhouse Performance pads. From Herrod; 100lb injectors, hi flow pump, Aeroflow fuel regulator, air to water intercooler, hi boost pulley kit, JLT breather. Hub dynoed at 598fwkw, 498rwkw, 959Nm torque, boost 10.62psi at 3750rpm (warm day). All done by iPV! Other rides; '21 Jaguar F-Pace, '21 Ford Ranger FX4-MAX. |
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05-05-2014, 03:17 AM | #106 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Utah
Posts: 3,479
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But like I said, people who go to church pay all those same taxes you do. Church members consist of a mix of employers, employees, and unemployed just like non-church-goers. There is no exemption on taxes because you attend a church. You advocate putting an additional tax because church members gather one day a week in the name of a church entity. Monday to Friday they are out making money and paying taxes just like you. Much of the money they collect voluntarily goes to help the needy anyway (without all the bureaucracy, overhead, and wasteful spending of the government). Churches are not hurting the economy, they are lightening the load for the government to have to intervene. If it's all about fairness, it's still fair because we pay taxes on our incomes just like you do. You don't penalize people with more taxes because they choose to meet together in the same building once a week. If you do that, then I'm sure some churches just won't register themselves as churches. You don't want that because they will meet unofficially in private homes instead of a commercial building (bad for safety reasons). Put it this way. With the system as it is now, atheists don't have to pay a tax for not going to church and religious people don't have to pay a tax for going to church. It's already "fair."
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05-05-2014, 03:56 AM | #107 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Queenstown
Posts: 626
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Quote:
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2011 FG GTP 335 S/C. Auto, tiptronic. iPV ceramic headers, stainless hi flow cats and big bore, BMC filter, X3 tune, DBA T3 rotors, Roadhouse Performance pads. From Herrod; 100lb injectors, hi flow pump, Aeroflow fuel regulator, air to water intercooler, hi boost pulley kit, JLT breather. Hub dynoed at 598fwkw, 498rwkw, 959Nm torque, boost 10.62psi at 3750rpm (warm day). All done by iPV! Other rides; '21 Jaguar F-Pace, '21 Ford Ranger FX4-MAX. |
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05-05-2014, 04:07 AM | #108 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Utah
Posts: 3,479
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Yeah I've heard that too. I believe it. Those people get what they deserve, should be charged and jailed for fraud. Churches and non-profit clubs (not non-profit companies) should be considered the same for tax purposes, and I think they are (but could be wrong). So if you want to start a car club that meets every week, you don't have to pay additional taxes either. If anybody uses a church or non-profit club for personal gain (income, assets), the status of the entity should be removed and the people should be fined. Non-profit companies are different because they have owners and employees who benefit personally from incomes and other benefits.
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05-05-2014, 07:01 AM | #109 | |||
XY Falcon
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 413
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Quote:
The problem is when a church owns a commercial business and channels the profit of that business into church activities of no charitable merit. For example, Sanitarium is owned by the Seventh-day Adventists and therefore exempt from company tax. Sanitarium generates hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue each year (tax-exempt) that goes directly to the Church to be spent however they see fit. There are no regulations that require this tax-free money be spent on genuine charitable endeavours and there is no requirement for transparency or independent oversight regarding how the money is spent... How much of Sanitarium's profit is spent on genuine charitable endeavours and how much on non-charitable church endeavours? I have no idea, and I doubt they make that info public. An additional dimension to the tax exempt status of church owned commercial businesses is that it is fundamentally anti-competitive. If you take Sanitarium as an example, it is more difficult for other breakfast cereal manufacturers to compete because they are required to pay company tax. From that perspective, it's not fair.
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_________________ 1971 XY Falcon 500 Last edited by karj; 05-05-2014 at 07:10 AM. |
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05-05-2014, 07:16 AM | #110 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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Nobody suggested churchgoers pay extra tax (although the do...what do you think the collection dish is for?), but that churches and religious institutions themselves actually start paying taxes and rates and charges that the rest of us do.
One word is all that's needed to show how lucrative it all is..."Hillsong". Go look up their finances and be staggered by the scope of the scam, and then realise they pay no taxes on any of it. Some people say "communism" as a solution to capitalisms problems. If you listen to the words of Karl Marx, he said "From each according to his ability, to each according to their need"...which sounds perfectly fair and equitable, and a good way to run things. However, if you think a minute, there's a big problem...someone else decides what you are "capable of" for a job, and more worryingly, someone else get to decide what you "need"... |
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05-05-2014, 07:49 AM | #111 | ||
Wirlankarra yanama
Join Date: May 2006
Location: God's Country
Posts: 2,103
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It was so "good" that people risked barbed wire, attack dogs, bullets and life long Siberian imprisionment wanting to leave rather than stay. Can't really say I've heard of to many people before the collapse of the Soviet Union actually banging on the gates wanting to be let in so as to participate in that "good" place. Do you suposse North Korea is a great place too?
Last edited by cheap; 05-05-2014 at 07:54 AM. |
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05-05-2014, 08:04 AM | #112 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Utah
Posts: 3,479
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Quote:
Last edited by chevypower; 05-05-2014 at 08:11 AM. |
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05-05-2014, 08:34 AM | #113 | ||
Wirlankarra yanama
Join Date: May 2006
Location: God's Country
Posts: 2,103
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So all the churches charitable work, social services and so on - these things would be a cost of doing business and therefore a tax deduction? Or do people expect religion to be still done for free, how would you cost a can of baked beans V's a Hail Mary? Would GST apply to the Hail Mary I guess it would...
People are on a slippery slope trying to tax religion - mind you I'd like to see the advocates if this theme put their money where their keyboards are, organised with placards and loud hailers street marching through Lakemba and Auburn testing public appetite for their vision. |
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05-05-2014, 08:35 AM | #114 | ||
Chairman & Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 1975
Posts: 107,343
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It always seems such a simple answer. Tax the rich - although I'm not quite sure what is defined as rich these days and it has probably never been the answer anyway.
There are some good suggestions in this thread, some really bad suggestions and some that have me wondering what we've become as a society. So here's my 10 cents worth. Let me start by saying that in my view, if the Government uses the additional impost to reduce debt and doesn't use it as an excuse to continue pork barrelling themselves into larger deficits then I have no issue with paying it. This, despite the fact that I've not been a recipient of one single cent of the Government 'initiatives' that created the debt in the first place. What I do have a problem with is some of the benefits attached to those initiatives that we now consider to be 'rights' in order to support a higher standard of living than previous generations enjoyed. Without wishing to single out any particular group in society let's start with a simple one that is easy to provide comparisons for - the Baby bonus and associated parenting benefits. Neither I, nor my parents received anything for having children apart from the rather token couple of dollars a week the Government handed out in Child Allowance (under various guises) but we also didn't have to worry about child care costs because we accepted that having children meant making sacrifices and surviving on one or one and some part time work incomes. Now, before the bleating about not being able to survive on one income these days crops up let me say this: the average household running cost today as a percentage of income is actually better than it was in the 1950's (my parents time) or 1970's (mine) by a small but measurable amount. Even mortgage servicing costs still make up around the same 20-22% of household income they have over most of the last 50 years. Admittedly they did get lower (to about 17%) during the 1980's but that was against historical trends. Anyway, back to the point. Having children and supporting them on a single income does mean making sacrifices. Smaller house (or a worse area); maybe one instead of two cars or two older cars; simple holidays; not much in the way of entertainment that you don't make yourself and others too numerous to mention but having children is a choice that each couple make and there should be no expectation that the Government will be there with handouts and subsidies just so that parents can attempt to maintain a lifestyle. I really struggle to see how we got so far off the fundamental that people are responsible for their own support and welfare was simply a safety net against catastrophe such as illness, disability and genuine unemployment. That some of these benefits aren't even means tested is even worse. You may ask, why should I care and in many ways I don't. My days of having children are well behind me but when these so called government initiatives keep moving my age of retirement from the 50 it originally was; through the 55 it then was; to the 60 it currently is and (no doubt) the 65 it is going to be before I get to 60 then I am understandably more than a little miffed about the situation. I've worked hard since I was 15 to fund an early retirement only to watch it disappear under the weight of public debt; unfunded retirees and government funded social benefits. Indeed, I'm currently of the view that I won't be living out my retired years in this country at all as I can only see increased pressure coming from our Government on the pre-1960's generation and more onerous requirements for retirement. Cheers Russ
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05-05-2014, 09:17 AM | #115 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,874
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I'd respect the churches if they genuinely cared about and for the needy. If they did then each church building could house the homeless each night and the hungry would cease to exist.
However the Catholic Church as just one example is worth billions of dollars in NSW only and does a very limited amount of 'good'. Churches compete with one another for followers and ask for donations from their churchgoers. They are exempt from many things like rates etc.......why? As far as I'm concerned they should all start paying their way: tax, rates, land taxes etc. It's got nothing to do with the people who attend services, it's the organization or head office who should be responsible. |
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05-05-2014, 09:46 AM | #116 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Utah
Posts: 3,479
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You have to keep in mind there are laws/building codes/zoning that limit the use of buildings. Great idea though, maybe they need to loosen up on those regulations. I heard about regulations concerning donating food to the homeless. There are legal liabilities they can get themselves into for trying to do the right thing.
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05-05-2014, 09:57 AM | #117 | |||
Wirlankarra yanama
Join Date: May 2006
Location: God's Country
Posts: 2,103
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Quote:
Besides nearly every religion's assets is real estate which even if they could sell would be heritage listed and/or subject to local planning regulations therefore not worth anywhere near as much as people would believe. There are countless delapidated churches throughout Australia because they can not be redeveloped. |
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05-05-2014, 10:02 AM | #118 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,874
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Has it even tried? Or is it giving lip service to this issue which is one of many it could address? it's too busy hanging onto what it's got and trying to get more imho Wayside Chapel and Missionbeat do great work for the needy by comparison |
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05-05-2014, 10:14 AM | #119 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: On The Footplate.
Posts: 5,086
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There's no "slippery slope" with taxing religions and religion-like set ups.
If they do charitable work and can prove it, then they get a tax deduction, just like everyone else who contributes to a charity. The way they get out of paying council rates on premises is just plain criminal. Not to mention the outcry in Rockhampton when it cost the taxpayer and ratepayers eight million dollars for a hardly-used overpass on a major road so students could cross from one side to the other occasionally where another part of the campus is located. There used to be a proper pedestrian crossing with lights, which worked perfectly well. The huge, air conditioned, elevator-at-each-end overpass was built by the town council. Plenty of people wondered how many old boys from the catholic school were on the town council when the decision was made... At the same time, another primary school in another part of town wanted nothing more than a pedestrian crossing painted on the road and an official school zone declared...but got told that it might interfere with traffic flow and would have to be studied further... Churches and religions get away with far too much in our supposedly secular society. They should get no breaks on paying taxes or fees or charges at all, other than the normal deductions every other individual and business can claim. The reason people immediately jump to "catholic church" when this is mentioned is the well known and widely reported staggeringly vast sums of money they have access to. If the church run school in Rocky wanted the overpass built, they could have built it out of loose change that the church has access to. You're right that "tax the rich" is an easy cry to make. But sooner or later, someone will notice that they are only targeting 4% or 5% of taxpayers, when we were told "everyone has to contribute"... Sure they do... Last edited by 2011G6E; 05-05-2014 at 10:27 AM. |
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05-05-2014, 10:19 AM | #120 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,874
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Catholic Church has been in the news lately re child abuse and it's response to it plus have a relo who's a priest hence my mention, not concentration, of them |
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