VFACTS Feb 2012 - Page 4

**buggerlugs** · 06-03-2012, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Goodbye Falcon my old friend. You will be missed very much.

Ah, good old Mr Doom and Gloom right on cue as usual............

bobthebilda · 06-03-2012, 09:17 AM

Mmmm I wonder if Holden have been misleading the public a bit to try and boost sales. The last few months they were advertising 2011 cruzes as $21990 and saying that 2012 cruzes were going to rise by $1000. Now they have 2012 cruzes as $21990 plus you get $750 worth of Genuine Holden accessories thrown in.

turbodewd · 06-03-2012, 09:35 AM

I wonder if the uglier FG mkII front end is harming sales somewhat. I am not a fan of it, although it wouldnt stop me buying it.

Has a poll been run on this? questions like:

I like the FG mkII front
I dislike the FG mkII front but would still buy it
I dislike the FG mkII front and wouldnt buy it due to it

phillyc · 06-03-2012, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

That's what I don't understand, Ford sees the demand for diesel in Focus & Mondeo but knows it can't get enough of them, cant get any diesel Kugas whatsoever yet completely dismisses diesel Falcon in favor of Ecoboost and EcoLPI because apparently, that's what fleets want...

But that's me looking at Falcon with retail eyes, maybe diesel wouldn't sell any good either. We'll never know because it's not happening as there's no cash in the tin to even try...

It seems that very few fleets are buying Australian medium-large cars full stop. But, to talk about letting the customers choose the favoured technology but not offer diesel is madness.

Ford Aus have been doing a sterling job of being financially prudent and paying off substantial internal company debt whilst building some fantastic (best in Southern Hemisphere) testing facilities.

Ford absolutely need to pull back $40m towards grafting that V6TD into Falcon. They could continue to sell the FG2 XR6 petrol for $36,990da and then sell a diesel for $39,990da. Watch the spike in sales! Absolutely it is true that revenue is not profit, but with Ford's cost parity of V6TD & petrol but retail price difference, it would take about 13,000 sales of diesel Falcons to recoup. If they can't get that over 4 years in both sedan and Ute I would be amazed.

In effect at $39,990da you'd have the option of a diesel Falcon XR6 or petrol Territory TX.

Smoke Pursuit · 06-03-2012, 09:41 AM

People dont know alot about MkII so I dont think its affecting sales. I think the lack of marketing, availability of some models and no special editions is hurting Ford, fleets are moving away from big cars so you really need to build cars private buyers want. Holden has the luxury of V8 and sportswagons to help it along the way with private buyers, Ford sadly has neither in Falcon spec.

Time for a special edition run again (like 50th anniversary cars), but make an XT special edition as well with LPI, foglamps, 17 inch wheels etc for 32 kay drive away. They are not aggressive enough with pricing atm.

dimka100 · 06-03-2012, 09:53 AM

To me it seems that not putting a diesel into the Falcon is a suicide on Ford behalf ...

Sure the EcoBoost is not a bad engine, and it definitely seems to be the new strategy for Ford USA. But Ford USA is mostly driven by the fact than no one is buying diesel engines in the US, so they picked the best petrol technology they could get their hands on ... for Australia however that case is yet to be proven and so far diesel engines certainly have the market numbers to suggest a sound business case ...

What also confuses me is why would the R&D cost of implementing a diesel in a Falcon be high??? that engine is already developed and running in the Territory which has the same front as the Falcon. Is it not a simple exercise of just slotting the engine in??? I mean seriously this is way less complex than actually building a new engine from scratch ...

csv8 · 06-03-2012, 09:53 AM

If Holden can sell V6 and V8 wagons, why cann't Ford????? XR6, XR6T and G8E wagons would be nice.There must be reasons why?? Dealers ? service? poor marketing ? any number of factors. I am sure none of us here are bagging the Falcon. Just pointing out Fords failures. and I am sure Ford are aware of our comments and failure to act is amazing!!!

**Luke Plaizier** · 06-03-2012, 10:01 AM

Falcon Wagon money went to Territory. I know if I had a choice between wagon and SUV I'd have gone the SUV.

There is an excellent counter argument to the "why can't Ford do <insert wish here>". Ford do a lot.

For example, from an upset Holdne fan - "If Ford can make the Territory, why can't Holden?", "If Ford can build turbocharged 4 and 6 engines and supercharged 8's for Falcon, why can't Holden". Or how about "If Ford can build a Diesel RWD Wagon, why can't Holden?"

The local Ford product suite is quite good. It's the marketting that is not. And the reverse can be said for Holden.

Lukeyson

Spammy · 06-03-2012, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

If Holden can sell V6 and V8 wagons, why cann't Ford????? XR6, XR6T and G8E wagons would be nice.There must be reasons why?? Dealers ? service? poor marketing ? any number of factors. I am sure none of us here are bagging the Falcon. Just pointing out Fords failures. and I am sure Ford are aware of our comments and failure to act is amazing!!!

A car that is essentially only sold in one market and in turn sells circa 1200 per month does not warrant development dollars. They just don't sell enough of them to make it economic to design, develop and build a full range of falcon body styles. The Fairlane and LTD and Wagon have all been retired becasue it just doesn't make sense to build them anymore.

In fact - they barely sell enough Falcons to warrant building them as a starting point. And low sales lead to low development dollars for new models leads to less innovation leads to fewer sales leads to end of life for a model....it's a downward spiral.

Sad but Ford fans need to come to terms with the idea that Falcon is reaching the end of its life.

**Polyal** · 06-03-2012, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

That's what I don't understand, Ford sees the demand for diesel in Focus & Mondeo but
knows it can't get enough of them, cant get any diesel Kugas whatsoever yet completely
dismisses diesel Falcon in favor of Ecoboost and EcoLPI because apparently, that's what fleets want...

But that's me looking at Falcon with retail eyes, maybe diesel wouldn't sell any good either.
We'll never know because it's not happening as there's no cash in the tin to even try...

It does my head in too..if TDi was all new to falcon then I can see the argument against it..but its not, I would be pretty confident in saying the majority of the work would be done with the RWD Territory TDi.

A few of my friends have brought new cars, and guess what, all diesel, one Grand Cherokee TDi (I did try with the Ford thing but he came from an Audi so it was hard).

Even my missus, who's only real TDi experience is from a family members Golf wants a diesel and do you know what the clincher is for her and most non car people..the range vs per tank cost. While diesel is so close to PULP it makes sense...once you haggle the initial cost down a bit to a petrol price tag your winning all the way.

It would get rid of the "its a 4 cylinder" crowd for the Ecoboost, win over the LPG haters because of availability and give a better range!

PLUS it gives the Falcon a point of difference over the commy. Where is the loosing in this car? I agree, Ford need to be pushing a bit harder and this car makes way more sense at the moment than any 5.0 NA XR8/G8E.

It seems Ford are dead keen on saving as many I6 sales as they can, which is very noble, but if its to the determent of the Falcon brand then how does that work in the long run? Its like cutting your nose off despite your face.

BHDOGS · 06-03-2012, 10:42 AM

I don't even Read these threads anymore I look at the numbers and move on the only good news if ford quits australia is not having to read the regular falcon is dead wingers anymore

phillyc · 06-03-2012, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

It does my head in too..if TDi was all new to falcon then I can see the argument against it..but its not, I would be pretty confident in saying the majority of the work would be done with the RWD Territory TDi.

A few of my friends have brought new cars, and guess what, all diesel, one Grand Cherokee TDi (I did try with the Ford thing but he came from an Audi so it was hard).

Even my missus, who's only real TDi experience is from a family members Golf wants a diesel and do you know what the clincher is for her and most non car people..the range vs per tank cost. While diesel is so close to PULP it makes sense...once you haggle the initial cost down a bit to a petrol price tag your winning all the way.

It would get rid of the "its a 4 cylinder" crowd for the Ecoboost, win over the LPG haters because of availability and give a better range!

PLUS it gives the Falcon a point of difference over the commy. Where is the loosing in this car? I agree, Ford need to be pushing a bit harder and this car makes way more sense at the moment than any 5.0 NA XR8/G8E.

It seems Ford are dead keen on saving as many I6 sales as they can, which is very noble, but if its to the determent of the Falcon brand then how does that work in the long run? Its like cutting your nose off despite your face.

Yep, a TDi just makes sense. By not having it in Falcon it does protect production of the I6. But, with a TDi Falcon it absolutely provides a point of difference to not just the Commodore but just about any competitor.

Right now the cost to Ford is neutral to fit the diesel in the Territory versus the petrol. However the public is willingly paying the extra asking price. 80% of SZ Territory are diesel, last month was a neat 1400 sales. So, ~1120 sales paid an extra $3,000+ to have the diesel. That is $3.3M in extra revenue.

TDi would get people looking at Falcon with new eyes and would see the tech that it has, the quality it has to offer, the refinement and the driving enjoyment. Falcon would have the spike that Territory saw achieved all over again.

Heck it could even in a perverse way lift I6 sales. People still have an outdated / lagged perception of the Falcon's thirst / thrift. Most people are suprised when I tell them it is 9.9L/100km. So, they could even come to look at the diesel with 7L/100km economy and leave with a petrol. Or they might leave with an EcoBoost that does 8.1L/100km. Or they might leave with an EcoLPi which is the cheapest full stop.

The advert would be simple. "Diesel Falcon XR6. $39,990 driveaway".

Smoke Pursuit · 06-03-2012, 01:34 PM

Diesel would also sell well in G6E... Look at how many Benz C250 diesels are sold... a G6E at $50 kay with diesel would sell by the masses... try telling Ford tho :S

**Polyal** · 06-03-2012, 01:35 PM

Bang for buck I still cant believe its not in the falcon.

Whats funny is that people think TDi tech is new, sure the new ones are alot better than the old but the theory/application has been around for ages.

Suddenly, well not that suddenly EU has been doing it for ages, TDi is in vogue..its prime time now. I hope they dont do a Tez and figure it out to late.

dimka100 · 06-03-2012, 01:42 PM

The C250 diesel Merc is stunning ... that car is by far the best affordable luxury sedan on the market right now ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Diesel would also sell well in G6E... Look at how many Benz C250 diesels are sold... a G6E at $50 kay with diesel would sell by the masses... try telling Ford tho :S

Joe5619 · 06-03-2012, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Diesel would also sell well in G6E... Look at how many Benz C250 diesels are sold... a G6E at $50 kay with diesel would sell by the masses... try telling Ford tho :S

Wasn’t there an article a few weeks back & Merc where saying the very opposite to this?? There is a swing back to petrol for Merc sedan??

Nikked · 06-03-2012, 05:10 PM

if ford can average 3600 a month with combined territory and Falcon and ute sales...that is a yearly total of 43200...

Not that shabby

Bossxr8 · 06-03-2012, 05:47 PM

Ford will not bother spending any money on Falcon bar the mild update in 2014. The decision has been made to can it so forget new engines and all that other stuff, its not going to happen.

Putting a diesel in Falcon would cost tens of millions of dollars, i'm sick of hearing this "its already in Territory so it will go straight into Falcon and cost nothing" crap. Full R&D needs to be done from start to finish, and it has to pass every one of Fords internal tests. All emissions testing needs to be done, full durability testing needs to be done not to mention the work required to fit it into Falcon which does not have the same engine bay as Territory, they have differences.

Its would cost a large slice of the money Ford spent putting diesel in Territory, just a bit cheaper cause some parts could be re-used and they'd know what to expect.

jpd80 · 06-03-2012, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Falcon Wagon money went to Territory. I know if I had a choice between wagon and SUV I'd have gone the SUV.

There is an excellent counter argument to the "why can't Ford do <insert wish here>". Ford do a lot.

For example, from an upset Holdne fan - "If Ford can make the Territory, why can't Holden?", "If Ford can build turbocharged 4 and 6 engines and supercharged 8's for Falcon, why can't Holden". Or how about "If Ford can build a Diesel RWD Wagon, why can't Holden?"

Strange considering the Captiva 5 was designed for Asia/Europe Europe, Captiva 7 for North America.
Both of them are pretty similar vehicles yet Holden completely ignored the longer wheelbased Equinox
that would be a Territory competitor. There must be a reason for not sourcing it, maybe no RHD development..

Quote:

The local Ford product suite is quite good. It's the marketting that is not. And the reverse can be said for Holden.

Not descending into a Ford bagging tirade here, they just need to improve sourcing the vehicles that work,
at the moment, fans think everything is fail but it's not, so hardgetting FoE diesel vehicles that would sell like hot cakes.

4.0i OHC · 06-03-2012, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dimka100

The C250 diesel Merc is stunning ... that car is by far the best affordable luxury sedan on the market right now ...

I think that this car might have something to say about that:

Unlike the Merc, this machine actually steers, handles, looks good, and isn't going completely to fall apart within 2 years of purchase. As well as this, it's available in a manual. Across the range! A certain car company (which shall remain nameless) needs to learn a lesson from BMW about bringing their excellent mid-size car to Australia with a proper transmission.

Nic85 · 06-03-2012, 06:31 PM

Unfortunately I mentioned in the "How many Falcons will Ford sell this year" thread, that a decision would be made some time this year. It looks like it's going to ring true real soon.

I agree with the diesel rhetoric, and it's what I've been saying for months. Diesel is a good product, and aside from all the myths and hyperbole surrounding it, it's the market perception that it's a genuinely good product, and we're seeing that reflected in vehicle sales.

It's so unfortunate that Ford didn't spend the money to R&D Falcon for the diesel at the same time they did Territory. Put an ~80L tank in it at 7L/100km = 1100km range. Beautiful 6 speed ZF auto, refined diesel engine, heaps of low/mid range torque, amazing fuel economy - all yours for $40k drive away.

Yeah, why would anyone want that?!

Edit: BTW, any more brand specific numbers? I'd be itnerested to see how Mitsubishi went with its ageing Lancer, but also the new ASX.

**russellw** · 06-03-2012, 07:05 PM

s a manufacturer Ford has to make decisions well in advance and attempt to divine market trends so that (small by global standards) development budgets are utilised wherever their market research dictates they should be.

The money that went into engineering diesel for Territory, the Boss 5.0 for FPV, EcoLPi, EcoBoost for Falcon and the continual improvements in the I6 engine are all good examples of money well spent even if some of those haven't received the market acceptance that might have been hoped for.

With the benefit of hindsight it might well have been better to have foregone a couple of those in favour of diesel for Falcon but once the money is spent then it's gone.

Certainly the lack of apparent success for EcoLPi must be a bitter disappointment for what is (another) world class leading technology but the chance of the Falcon platform getting a diesel engine must be somewhere between zero and none. 13,000 sales per annum (at current levels) doesn't even justify the money spent on EcoLPi and EcoBoost let alone throwing more money after a platform that just doesn't do it for a large slice of the market today.

It's sad but we can hardly say that it hasn't been for lack of attempts to breathe life into Falcon - it probably owes it's continued existence to Territory anyway and even if a diesel was introduced it would probably scavenge significant sales from petrol models and not provide any massive increase in total volume.

Cheers
Russ

Wretched · 06-03-2012, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nic85

Edit: BTW, any more brand specific numbers? I'd be itnerested to see how Mitsubishi went with its ageing Lancer, but also the new ASX.

[CODE] Mitsubishi 2012 2011
Mitsubishi ASX 741 482
Mitsubishi Challenger 240 196
Mitsubishi Colt 47 100
Mitsubishi Express 44 82
Mitsubishi Grandis 0 3
Mitsubishi i-MiEV 2 0
Mitsubishi Lancer 1,449 1,561
Mitsubishi Outlander 758 691
Mitsubishi Pajero 531 496
Mitsubishi Triton 4X2 469 525
Mitsubishi Triton 4X4 885 982
Mitsubishi Total 5,166 5,118

Change 0.9%

Jeep 2012 2011
Jeep Cherokee 92 90
Jeep Compass 348 0
Jeep Grand Cherokee 482 146
Jeep Patriot 243 93
Jeep Wrangler 287 255
Jeep Total 1,452 584

Change 148.6%[/CODE]

Resurrection · 06-03-2012, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

Ah, good old Mr Doom and Gloom right on cue as usual............

Ah, good old Mr never wanting to face reality right on cue as usual............

jpd80 · 06-03-2012, 07:47 PM

Quote:

At the time, the most common question Polites was asked by randomly
selected Ford workers at the monthly staff meetings was: "Why isn't the Falcon selling?"
His answer was blunt and honest: "Basically, we developed a car the market didn't want.
We were happy with it but the public (wasn't)."

And those words continue to ring true today...

burnz · 06-03-2012, 08:30 PM

i think the Lpi will pick up in sales, once holden start to advertise their gas jobbie.

people will want to see what the opposition has got, and as far as i know their are only two players.

XR Martin · 06-03-2012, 08:56 PM

Edit:
No matter.

borough · 06-03-2012, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

i think the Lpi will pick up in sales, once holden start to advertise their gas jobbie.

people will want to see what the opposition has got, and as far as i know their are only two players.

The way LPG prices are going will hurt the LPi. When I got my XR6 in November last year LPG was 53.9 cpl in Melbourne, now it is selling for 87.9 cpl. Thats a 63% increase in a few months.

martyk54 · 06-03-2012, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

i think the Lpi will pick up in sales, once holden start to advertise their gas jobbie.

But... when a potential buyer can go to Holden and get their LPG car in a matter of weeks or instantly, while Ford makes you wait 'indefinitely' for the EcoLPI due to part shortages and bad development management? It'll be the same as when Fiesta first came out... 4-6 month wait, or got to Mazda and choose from the stockpile of Mazda2s they have, any flavour you like by the following week.

Don't get me wrong, the EcoLPI is without doubt by far the superior vehicle, Ford will find a way to not make it sell though.. AND THEY ARE!

mr smith · 06-03-2012, 09:10 PM

Ford want Falcon gone. But there is no way they can just pull the plug, way too much govt money and backlash in that. Better to hold back and not support the name plate and slowly cut production and workforce untill its just a trickle. Then shoot it.

An insider tells me of a strong rumour of more redundancies very soon!