Highest Output 2ltr N/A engine - Page 4

B-Series · 10-03-2007, 12:11 AM

The S2000 is nearly 8 years old and has won a lot more awards than that pontiac whatever. They may be direct competitors but their engines are very different (like the SS vs the XR6T). A 2.0L turbo is obviously going to have more low/mid grunt than a NA 2.0L engine. Once again... apples and oranges Steffo

:. If a NA 2.0L is an apple, then a 2.0L turbo is watermelon

.

Don't forget that this thread was originally about whether the S2000 is the most powerful NA 2.0L - which it is. What's more to say?

Steffo · 10-03-2007, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Series

The S2000 is nearly 8 years old and has won a lot more awards than that pontiac whatever. They may be direct competitors but their engines are very different (like the SS vs the XR6T). A 2.0L turbo is obviously going to have more low/mid grunt than a NA 2.0L engine. Once again... apples and oranges Steffo

:. If a NA 2.0L is an apple, then a 2.0L turbo is watermelon

.

Don't forget that this thread was originally about whether the S2000 is the most powerful NA 2.0L - which it is. What's more to say?

First of all, the Pontiac has been out for, well, it just came out. It's just starting, it will win lots of awards.

They are apples to apples, they're direct competitors sporting light weight with a good amount of power and RWD.

Threads do deviate off topic. If they didn't, how boring would we all be? The 2.0 in the S2000 is the most powerful 2.0 N/A production engine sure, but that doesn't make it good. It just means no one else wastes there time with such a feeble exercise.

B-Series · 10-03-2007, 12:39 AM

The S2000 has received plenty of positive reviews by experts who have actually driven the car in real life (not on the PS2

). Surely these people would have a better idea than you?

outback_ute · 10-03-2007, 12:47 AM

Haven't one of the clubman companies in the UK done a ~2L V8 by joining two motorbike cylinder heads on a custom block? It would have to make plenty of power, if you count it as a production engine.

Steffo · 10-03-2007, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Series

The S2000 has received plenty of positive reviews by experts who have actually driven the car in real life (not on the PS2

). Surely these people would have a better idea than you?

Never driven one on a PS2, don't have one, sorry.

:

Hey, I would drive one in real life, if it weren't for the drama of not being able to use the clutch pedal, because to get to it I have to jam my left leg under the dash, in the dead straight locked-out position, can't bend the knee, unless someone removed the dashboard. So the best I can do is be passenger to it.

Positive reviews, excellent. The chassis is probably great. But did you know, there's such thing as an opinion! Combine that with a knowledge of the workings of the internal combustion engine, you get an informed opinion. And did you know they can differ! And what I know, gives me my informed opinion, that engine's like that are a big waste of time to show some feigned technical prowess, when what it "acheives," can be done in a much simpler way with 100 times better yeild.

Piotr · 10-03-2007, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRDRIFT

Oh, and old school euro cars like the Peugot 108/9 gti had a 1.9 litre twin carbs and reved to 18,000rpm, redline at 14,000 or therebouts, fugly car but quick, standard.

Think you've mistaken that for a f1 car mate.

Steffo · 10-03-2007, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Haven't one of the clubman companies in the UK done a ~2L V8 by joining two motorbike cylinder heads on a custom block? It would have to make plenty of power, if you count it as a production engine.

Yeah. Radical SR8. Two 175hp 1.3 litre Suzuki Hayabusa engines with a common crank. Hello 350hp 2.6 litre V8. They've done some work to the motor then too... it's got..

363bhp (271kW) @ 10,300rpm
200ftlbs (271Nm) @ 7000rpm

Has an 81mm bore and 63mm stroke. The dry weight of the engine is 95kg. The total dry weight of the vehicle is 600kg.

How's that for specific output? 104.23kW/litre and 104.23Nm/litre. That's 139.62bhp/litre.

The car also holds the record for the fastest street car (yes, in most of the world it is street legal) around the Nurburgring-Nordschleife, at 6:55.06. For comparison, the Porsche Carrera GT (450kW 5.7 V10) does it in 7:28, the Bugatti EB 16/4 Veyron (736kW 8.0 TTTT W16) does it in 7:40 and the famous McLaren F1 (468kW 6.1 V12) only manages 7:45.

http://www.radicalextremesportscars....8/sr8_spec.php

B-Series · 10-03-2007, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

And what I know, gives me my informed opinion, that engine's like that are a big waste of time to show some feigned technical prowess, when what it "acheives," can be done in a much simpler way with 100 times better yeild.

Nah mate, opinion and public forum definately don't go together

:.
On a more serious note though...
Honda, if they wanted to, could have put in a turbo charged engine to achieve the same performance in a much easier way. But, many people love the high revving nature of the VTEC engine and wouldn't want it any other way. Sure, it may not be as tractable as a turbo, but an engine that spins to 9000rpm is something special. You may have a differing opinion, but I and nearly every other expert agree that the S2000 is a gem. It seems that some opinions are better grounded than others I suppose

.

XR Martin · 10-03-2007, 02:24 AM

On paper the S2000 is a good motor, most experts will agree. But those experts would also agree the S2K would have been a much better car with a lower reving 2L turbo engine, making similar Kw, but a much larger spread of torque.
The same experts would agree that the Renisis RX8 engine is good on paper, but like the S2K, they would agree it would be a much better and faster car with the 2.3L Turbo engine from the MPS 3 and 6.

Honda only persists on high reving N/A motors for the sake of just doing it, a novality as such. Its not done for the sake of being practical, or efficent.

XR Martin · 10-03-2007, 02:31 AM

As for fuel economy, the S2Ks official figures are 10.0L/100 average.
The VXR is 9.2, and the Golf GTi is 8.0, Mazda 3 MPS is 10.0.

So what is so special about the S2000 engine again? Other than having a high Hp/L figure? Which in reality means nothing, only on paper does it mean something.

Steffo · 10-03-2007, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

As for fuel economy, the S2Ks official figures are 10.0L/100 average.
The VXR is 9.2, and the Golf GTi is 8.0, Mazda 3 MPS is 10.0.

So what is so special about the S2000 engine again? Other than having a high Hp/L figure? Which in reality means nothing, only on paper does it mean something.

The **** factor you get saying, oh look, I can hit 9000rpm!

B-Series · 10-03-2007, 02:43 AM

Some good points there. However, it's not Honda's nature to produce a car with a turbo charged engine. Honda has had decades of experience with high revving F1 cars and this experience manifests in their passenger cars. Like I said, it comes down to personal preference.

B-Series · 10-03-2007, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

The **** factor you get saying, oh look, I can hit 9000rpm!

Spot on! It's great boasting about hitting 9000rpm. Not to mention the glorious engine note.

:

Steffo · 10-03-2007, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Series

Spot on! It's great boasting about hitting 9000rpm. Not to mention the glorious engine note.

:

Personally I've never heard a Honda that sounded good. I think they all sound like crap. If you want a glorious high revving engine not, try out a V8 Ferrari at 8000rpm. But that's me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Series

Some good points there. However, it's not Honda's nature to produce a car with a turbo charged engine. Honda has had decades of experience with high revving F1 cars and this experience manifests in their passenger cars. Like I said, it comes down to personal preference.

Yeah, Honda doesn't do logical things. F1 does not equal road cars. F1 = rules limiting what they have. If they were open-class, there wouldn't be a bunch of 2.4 V8's hitting 19,000rpm to make 750hp. Oh no, there'd be a bunch of bigger, lower revving, more likely then not turbocharged engines making... with those sorts of development budgets... thrice that. The idea that a car can be a road-going embodiment of Formula 1 is great marketing farce. People actually fall for it too.

Car companies with alot more racing success and experience then Honda choose different route's to make power. I think I'll take their word for it.

B-Series · 10-03-2007, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Personally I've never heard a Honda that sounded good. I think they all sound like crap. If you want a glorious high revving engine not, try out a V8 Ferrari at 8000rpm. But that's me.

It probably is just you. Some opinions are better grounded than others :hihi:.
Megabuck V8 Ferrari? Apples and oranges again mate

.

MethodX · 10-03-2007, 03:09 AM

Alfa and Fiat twin cams sound better than Honda motors.

But thats opinion again

B-Series · 10-03-2007, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Yeah, Honda doesn't do logical things. F1 does not equal road cars. F1 = rules limiting what they have. If they were open-class, there wouldn't be a bunch of 2.4 V8's hitting 19,000rpm to make 750hp. Oh no, there'd be a bunch of bigger, lower revving, more likely then not turbocharged engines making... with those sorts of development budgets... thrice that. The idea that a car can be a road-going embodiment of Formula 1 is great marketing farce. People actually fall for it too.

Car companies with alot more racing success and experience then Honda choose different route's to make power. I think I'll take their word for it.

Funny how honda continues to excel when it comes to engine awards. Meh, what would the experts know?
But If you like the low end grunt of a big aussie 6/8 then the VTEC is probably not for you. It doesn't mean it is a bad engine though.

Steffo · 10-03-2007, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Series

It probably is just you. Some opinions are better grounded than others :hihi:.
Megabuck V8 Ferrari? Apples and oranges again mate

.

Hey, we're talking about a sound now. Don't need mega-dollars to make a car sound good. Buy a clapped out Clevo powered XD for $1500 and slap a nice cat-back on it... total investment $2000 and you have one of the best sounding cars around.

And the "opinions are better," grounded comment is weak at best. You talk about "experts," yet never cite who they are, and an opinion of sound (which has ZERO to do with fact as its always going to be subjective) can't be 'grounded,' on anything. :yeees:

B-Series · 10-03-2007, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Hey, we're talking about a sound now. Don't need mega-dollars to make a car sound good. Buy a clapped out Clevo powered XD for $1500 and slap a nice cat-back on it... total investment $2000 and you have one of the best sounding cars around.

And the "opinions are better," grounded comment is weak at best. You talk about "experts," yet never cite who they are, and an opinion of sound (which has ZERO to do with fact as its always going to be subjective) can't be 'grounded,' on anything. :yeees:

The majority of experts (journalists/test-drivers) who have had plenty of experience with all sorts of cars agree that the S2000 sounds good. What experts??? - Do what you do best and use google/wikipedia to find some reviews

. Like you said, whether a car sounds good is a matter of opinion. However, some opinions are more valid than others.

B-Series · 10-03-2007, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Hey, we're talking about a sound now. Don't need mega-dollars to make a car sound good. Buy a clapped out Clevo powered XD for $1500 and slap a nice cat-back on it... total investment $2000 and you have one of the best sounding cars around.

Apples and oranges steffo... are you comparing the note of a V8 to the sound of a tiny four pot?

MethodX · 10-03-2007, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Series

The majority of experts (journalists/test-drivers) who have had plenty of experience with all sorts of cars agree that the S2000 sounds good. What experts??? - Do what you do best and use google/wikipedia to find some reviews

. Like you said, whether a car sounds good is a matter of opinion. However, some opinions are more valid than others.

I remember reading one of Motors BFYB and they said the S2000 was a good car, but the note was terrible and at the end of the day wasnt even that quick.

Steffo · 10-03-2007, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Series

Funny how honda continues to excel when it comes to engine awards. Meh, what would the experts know?

Who are these non-existant experts of yours?

Honda gets their butts handed to them award wise by the likes of VW, BMW etc etc... and before you go on about mega dollars, VW's aren't, and BMW's outside Australia aren't, our overinflated taxation system doesn't reflect the true vehicle pricing...

International Engine of the Year 2006 Awards results...

Best New Engine 2006 -

1. Volkswagen 1.4litre TSI (Golf)
2. Toyota 3.5litre V6 Hybrid (GS450h)
3. Chevrolet 7.0litre V8 (Corvette Z06)
4. Mercedes-AMG 6.2litre V8 (CLK, ML)
5. Porsche 3.4litre Flat-Six (Cayman)
6. Honda 1.8litre 4-cyl (Civic)

Best Fuel Economy 2006 -

1. Toyota Hybrid 1.5litre (Prius)
2. Honda Hybrid 1.3litre IMA (Civic)
3. Fiat-GM Diesel 1.3litre (Panda, Grande Punto, IDEA, Doblo, Lancia Ypsilon, Opel/Vauxhall Agila, Corsa Astra, Meriva, Tigra, Combo, Suzuki New Ignis)
4. Honda 3.0litre V6 Hybrid (Accord)
5. Toyota 3.5litre V6 Hybrid (GS450h)
6. Renault/Nissan 2.0litre Diesel (Megane, Laguna)

Best Performance Engine 2006 -

1. BMW 5.0litre V10 (M5, M6)
2. Ferrari 4.3litre V8 (F430)
3. Mercedes-AMG 6.0litre Bi-turbo V12 (SL65, CL65, Maybach)
4. Chevrolet 7.0litre V8 (Corvette Z06)
5. Porsche 3.8litre Flat-Six (911)
6. BMW 3.2litre Inline-Six (M3, Z4M)

Best Sub 1.0litre Engine 2006 -

1. Honda 1.0litre IMA (Insight)
2. Toyota 1.0litre 3-cylinder (Aygo, Yaris/Echo/Vitz, Citroen C1, Peugeot 107)
3. Ford 1.0litre Supercharged (Ecosport)
4. Smart Diesel 799cc (ForTwo)
5. Suzuki 1.0litre (Wagon R+)
6. Smart 698cc (ForTwo)

Best 1.0 - 1.4litre Engine 2006 -

1. Volkswagen 1.4litre TSI (Golf)
2. Honda Hybrid 1.3litre IMA (Civic)
3. Fiat-GM Diesel 1.3litre (Panda, Grande Punto, IDEA, Doblo, Lancia Ypsilon, Opel/Vauxhall Agila, Corsa Astra, Meriva, Tigra, Combo, Suzuki New Ignis)
4. Peugeot-Citroen/Ford Diesel 1.4litre (Citroen C2, C3, Xsara, Ford Fiesta, Fusion, Mazda 2/Demio, Peugeot 1007, 307)
5. Toyota Diesel 1.4litre (Yaris/Echo/Vitz, MINI)
6. Volkswagen 1.4litre FSI (GDI) (Polo, Golf)

Best 1.4 - 1.8litre Engine 2006 -

1. Toyota Hybrid 1.5litre (Prius)
2. Honda 1.8litre (Civic)
3. MINI 1.6litre Supercharged (Cooper S)
4. Renault Diesel 1.5litre dCi (Clio, Modus, Megane, Scenic, Nissan Micra/March, Almera, Tiida/Note/Versa)
5. Peugeot-Citroen/Ford Diesel 1.6litre
6. Toyota 1.8litre VVTL-i (Celica, Corolla Sport)

Best 1.8 - 2.0litre Engine 2006 -

1. Volkswagen/Audi 2.0litre FSI Turbo (Golf GTI, Audi A3, A4, A6, Skoda Octavia, Seat Leon)
2. Honda 2.0litre i-VTEC (Civic Type R)
3. Honda 2.0litre (S2000 - Europe/Asia)
4. BMW Diesel 2.0litre (X3, 120d, 320d, 520d)
5. Renault/Nissan Diesel 2.0litre (Laguna, Megane)
6. Mitsubishi 2.0litre Turbo (Evo9, Outlander/Airtek)

Best 2.0 - 2.5litre Engine 2006 -

1. Subaru 2.5litre Flat-Four Turbo (Forester, Impreza, Saab 9-2X)
2. BMW 2.5litre Inline-Six (325i, 525i, Z4 2.5i)
3. Honda i-CTDi Diesel 2.2litre (Civic, Accord (Europe), CR-V, FR-V)
4. Mazda 2.3litre GDI Turbo (Mazda 6 MPS)
5. Toyota 2.2litre Diesel D-CAT (Avensis, Corolla Verso, RAV4, Lexus IS220d)
= 6. Fiat Diesel 2.4litre JTD Multijet (Alfa 159, 166, Brera, Lancia Thesis, Fiat Croma)
= 6. Honda 2.2litre (S2000 - North America)

Best 2.5 - 3.0litre Engine 2006 -

1. BMW 3.0litre Twin Turbo Diesel (535d)
2. BMW 3.0litre Inline-Six (Z4 3.0i, 330i, 530i, 630Ci, 730i)
3. Honda 3.0litre V6 Hybrid (Accord)
4. Audi/VW Diesel 3.0litre V6 (A4, A6, A8, Q7, Touareg, Phaeton)
5. Jaguar Diesel 2.7litre V6 Twin Turbo (S-Type)
6. BMW 3.0litre Inline-Six (E46 330Ci, X3 3.0i, X5 3.0i)

Best 3.0 - 4.0litre Engine 2006 -

1. BMW 3.2litre Inline-Six (E46 M3, Z4M)
2. Toyota 3.5litre V6 Hybrid (GS450h)
3. Porsche 3.8litre Flat-Six (911)
4. Porsche 3.6litre Twin-Turbo Flat-Six (911 Turbo)
5. Toyota 3.3litre Hybrid (RX400h)
6. Audi 3.2litre FSI V6 (A4, A6, A8)

Best Engine above 4.0litres 2006 -

1. BMW 5.0litre V10 (M5, M6)
2. Ferrari 4.3litre V8 (F430)
3. Mercedes-AMG 6.0litre Bi-turbo V12 (SL65, CL65, Maybach)
4. Volkswagen Diesel 5.0litre V10 (Touareg, Phaeton)
5. Chevrolet 7.0litre V8 (Corvette Z06)
6. Ferrari 5.7litre V12 (612 Scagliette, F575M Superamerica)

Overall International Engine of the Year 2006 - BMW 5.0litre V10. That's two years in a row. Looks like Honda only won one category, the 1.0litre econoengines. Oh look, the S2000 2.0 places UNDER the 2.0 FSI Turbo I talked about before. And look how poorly the 2.2 version for the US market does in its group.

http://paultan.org/archives/2006/05/...wards-results/

Steffo · 10-03-2007, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Series

The majority of experts (journalists/test-drivers) who have had plenty of experience with all sorts of cars agree that the S2000 sounds good. What experts??? - Do what you do best and use google/wikipedia to find some reviews

. Like you said, whether a car sounds good is a matter of opinion. However, some opinions are more valid than others.

An opinion on sound and/or looks is totally subjective. None is more valid then any other.

As for journo's, they report how car's drive, not about the technical design theory of engines. Like I said, car may drive great, but that doesn't make its engine God's gift to man kind.

MethodX · 10-03-2007, 03:36 AM

Warms the heart to see that lovely pushrod Chev up there.

Steffo · 10-03-2007, 03:38 AM

One more thing - take a look at the performance engine section. Not one Honda and/or Japanese engine on the list. God I love that...

B-Series · 10-03-2007, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MethodX

I remember reading one of Motors BFYB and they said the S2000 was a good car, but the note was terrible and at the end of the day wasnt even that quick.

Like any car, some will hate the S2000. Many others love it though

.

B-Series · 10-03-2007, 03:41 AM

Interesting...
Check this out

"The Honda S2000 2.0 litre engine continues to outperform all of its class competitors and words like immortal, absolute legend and phenomenal specific output are used by the judges to describe this engine."

"Honda is once again recognised as being amongst the best engine manufacturers in the world winning 19 out of 72 possible awards in the 6 year history of this annual ceremony. The judges are made up of 56 leading motoring journalists from 24 different countries. Engines are awarded points based on their characteristics of fuel economy, noise, smoothness, performance and driveability."

:

It may be from 2004 but the considering that the S2000 was released in 99/00 so it makes sense :eclipsee_.

Steffo · 10-03-2007, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Series

Apples and oranges steffo... are you comparing the note of a V8 to the sound of a tiny four pot?

Is there a criteria now? You said good sound. I'm telling you that you can get a good sound on a budget. Good sound isn't affected by the number of cylinders..... there are some unbelievable sounding four and even three-cyls out there....

B-Series · 10-03-2007, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

An opinion on sound and/or looks is totally subjective. None is more valid then any other.

An opinion can be more valid than another as long as the majority of expert people in that particular field agree upon it. I soooo reckon my LADA (if I had one) looks and sounds hot! If that were my opinion I would be called crazy

Steffo · 10-03-2007, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Series

An opinion can be more valid than another as long as the majority of expert people in that particular field agree upon it. I soooo reckon my LADA (if I had one) looks and sounds hot!

When an opinion is a SUBJECTIVE one there is NO SUCH THING as an expert in a field. It's a non existant field!

Quote:

Originally Posted by American Heritage Dictionary

1a. Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision.

1b. Particular to a given person; personal: subjective experience.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subjective

Obviously you don't know what that means!

: