Should Electric Vehicles be Banned?

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Yesterday we had a 40 degree day and had a 4 hour blackout because everyone tried using their AC - imagine everyone charging their cars

Maybe that's what we need for a wake-up call, rolling infrastructure failure on a national scale, let people have unreliable power that's on and off for a few hours a day, that way they'll pull their head out their *** come election time.

Everyone has 2 hours of power a day but you don't know where you'll have it.

At the peak of the blackout on Thursday, more than 140,000 homes and businesses lost power when winds brought down trees and power lines. Geelong, Bendigo and Ballarat were the hardest hit.

Early on Friday morning, 10,000 AusNet customers were still without power, as well as 1500 from Powercor and 400 from Jemena.

AusNet had returned power for about half the customers by noon, when 3466 homes and businesses were still in blackout.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...22-p53d08.html

[xxx000]

Originally Posted by Wretched

https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...22-p53d08.html

You're spoiling their rage, with fact

[dunga]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Yesterday we had a 40 degree day and had a 4 hour blackout because everyone tried using their AC - imagine everyone charging their cars

Maybe that's what we need for a wake-up call, rolling infrastructure failure on a national scale, let people have unreliable power that's on and off for a few hours a day, that way they'll pull their head out their *** come election time.

Everyone has 2 hours of power a day but you don't know where you'll have it.

This is the only way you will teach the idiots that believe in 100 percent renwables

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

It just shows the stupidity of many "Greenies" that they tout Electric Vehicles as being clean and good for the environment.

Two things to consider:

I work in the Mining Industry and have done for a good while now. Yes, Lithium is all the rage, and new projects are sprouting like weeds?
But why now? Ok so demand has risen exponentially, but why weren't these projects viable before? It's because most of these deposit are extremely low concentration, the Lithium Ore is extremely hard and expensive to grind, and very expensive to process.
So, bottom line, its an extremely "dirty" and energy consuming mineral to mine and process.

Now on to the Vehicles themselves.
EV's (including plug-in hybrids) are most heavily pushed in countries that rely on Nuclear Power.
Think about that for a minute.
Only a few years ago, mention of the word "Nuclear" or "Uranium" would have the Greenies foaming at the mouth and trying to bite you in the neck. Indeed they were chaining themselves to bulldozers around the globe.
Olympic Dam is so contaminated, you have to sign a waiver to work there. Nope, I both like my testicles, and want to limit the number to 2.
Plus of course, this is where the NIMBY factor goes ballistic.
Of course the nouveau-hippies (and there's a few in here) will prattle on about Solar Cells. Fantastic, if you're prepared to pay (without subsidy) to blanket your home in solar cells, and go completely off-grid, then have at. Unfortunately that will mean living so far out of the city, that your EV will be useless.
The Bottom line, in Australia (and most countries) is that an Electric Vehicle is effectively being run on Brown Coal. The dirtiest, filthiest, most polluting power source available. Yes, mixed in there is Solar, Wind, and Natural Gas, but that's not how it works. Obviously we prioritise clean power, and switch off the filthy stuff when and if we can. The problem is that not only are we several decades away from that, but the more we lower demand for Coal, the cheaper and more attractive it becomes. Also keep in mind that most countries in the world can't afford to be as prissy as us, so that will keep on burning coal as long as it remains cheap.

Even in a best case scenario, your EV is running on Natural Gas. So why not just save expense, inconvenience, and Lithium, and simply convert your car to gas?

So once again, just like "recycling", EV's just serve to make the Millennials feel good, whilst shifting the problem somewhere else.
In the case of a very densely populated metropolis, there is probably some benefit in shifting emissions, but the overall effect is a negative.

your point about lithium is spot on, power generation is not...

the brown coal pollution is already being produced, it's a freebie charging the car, same as earth hour is a crock the power station does't suddenly stop for an hour.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

Is it true that if a EV is involved in a bad crash, not to touch it or you may get zapped or fried to a crisp.

I haven't heard that, but I have heard if they catch fire they have to be submerged in some sort of liquid for weeks? because they can spontaneously combust after they are initially extinguished

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Ben73

I haven't heard that, but I have heard if they catch fire they have to be submerged in some sort of liquid for weeks? because they can spontaneously combust after they are initially extinguished

Many of the EVs now have it so that should the car be involved in a serious crash the terminals are disconnected to limit the exposure.

Porsche Taycan for example.

The crash sensors of the Taycan were developed to meet the specific requirements of electric vehicles. Additional sensors are therefore used to reliably disconnect high-voltage equipment in the event of a crash. Also in the event of an accident where the airbag is deployed, the battery connection to the vehicle is disconnected as a precaution so that no voltage is live.

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/prod...ety-18562.html

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Many of the EVs now have it so that should the car be involved in a serious crash the terminals are disconnected to limit the exposure.

Porsche Taycan for example.



https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/prod...ety-18562.html

No different to the measures tsken in ICE cars with fuel shut off etc

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Yesterday we had a 40 degree day and had a 4 hour blackout because everyone tried using their AC - imagine everyone charging their cars

Maybe that's what we need for a wake-up call, rolling infrastructure failure on a national scale, let people have unreliable power that's on and off for a few hours a day, that way they'll pull their head out their *** come election time.

Everyone has 2 hours of power a day but you don't know where you'll have it.

Australia wide seems to have issues with poor power infrastructure, regardless if EV's or not, it needs upgrading. Just need more plants and upgrades to the network.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Wretched

https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...22-p53d08.html

Stop ruining my fake news with your facts

[Sprintey]

Another country (big one) removes subsidies for electric cars
EV market down 45% in October

https://www.zerohedge.com/commoditie...lithium-prices

[Franco Cozzo]

I'm convinced on those petrol-electric hybrids like the Holden Volt and the JDM Nissan Note e-Power - no range anxiety, smaller batteries but an engine just to run as a generator, like a diesel electric train.

The note looks pretty funky in Nismo spec and is 25% more powerful with 100KW/320NM from its electric motor.

[kmav23]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I'm convinced on those petrol-electric hybrids like the Holden Volt and the JDM Nissan Note e-Power - no range anxiety, smaller batteries but an engine just to run as a generator, like a diesel electric train.

The note looks pretty funky in Nismo spec and is 25% more powerful with 100KW/320NM from its electric motor.

Hybrids will be a very short stop gap max 5 years period.

Battery prices are falling and EV production and economy of scale is reducing production costs.

EVs will be cheaper to make in 5 years then hybrids as they are mass produced.

[Wretched]

EVs will only improve greater when solid state batteries become the norm. VW and Toyota leading the way for these to be introduced between 2023 and 2025.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

Is it true that if a EV is involved in a bad crash, not to touch it or you may get zapped or fried to a crisp.

not sure about that but I've seen evidence of high voltage explosions.
see Lithium explosions

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by kmav23

Hybrids will be a very short stop gap max 5 years period.

Battery prices are falling and EV production and economy of scale is reducing production costs.

EVs will be cheaper to make in 5 years then hybrids as they are mass produced.

Hybrids will be around a very long time considering the supporting infrastructure for EV's is very limited if any virtually non existent.
The roll out of EV charging stations will not happen overnight.


Cheers.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by kmav23

Hybrids will be a very short stop gap max 5 years period.

Battery prices are falling and EV production and economy of scale is reducing production costs.

EVs will be cheaper to make in 5 years then hybrids as they are mass produced.

We have been hearing that forever, but EV prices are still ridiculous.

[nstg8a]

There’s a lot riding on the viability of solid state batteries. These could be the answer to all the current ev negatives.

Could...

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

There’s a lot riding on the viability of solid state batteries. These could be the answer to all the current ev negatives.

Could...

These batteries seem to have the most promise....and not just cars but every application that needs lithium batteries.

If they show the promise in the real world it's a major game changer. The question is can it can this go from lab to real world.

[Sabantien]

Banning them? That's ridiculous.
As has already been pointed out, the battery tech keeps changing, and it's likely there'll be better options than lithium going forward.

A big problem in Australia is we burn coal to power them, and that's more the incompetence of our governments than anything else. Our power stations are old, they need replacing, but they keep holding onto the idea that coal is best (read, lines their pockets) even though every other market is transitioning away. Even BHP is giving up on thermal coal.

But it's slowly changing anyhow. My town just opened a geothermal power plant. Every other town out here has big solar farms. Unfortunately it doesn't help us out when the line goes down from Townsville. We all lose power. It's not set up to supply the town independently. A lot of the houses and businesses in town are plastered with solar panels. And if I wasn't renting, i'd do the same thing.

While I don't think people should be forced onto EV, if it suits them, go nuts. It would be great in the city, so long as you have a parking spot. Not everyone does in the inner city.

And being a greenie doesn't mean wanting to go back to the stone age.
Everything we do will have an impact. Greenies happen to like our natural environment, want to live in a clean environment, and try to reduce impact. Reduce. Doesn't go away.

[Wretched]

Slowly, very slowly but surely charge stations are picking up.

Below are partnered with a few key locations, hopefully more jump on board and appear to be powered by renewables.
https://www.chargefox.com/

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Sabantien

A big problem in Australia is we burn coal to power them, and that's more the incompetence of our governments than anything else. Our power stations are old, they need replacing, but they keep holding onto the idea that coal is best (read, lines their pockets) even though every other market is transitioning away. Even BHP is giving up on thermal coal.

Nuclear would be the way to go but no Politician would dare suggest it.

Originally Posted by Sabantien

But it's slowly changing anyhow. My town just opened a geothermal power plant. Every other town out here has big solar farms. Unfortunately it doesn't help us out when the line goes down from Townsville. We all lose power. It's not set up to supply the town independently. A lot of the houses and businesses in town are plastered with solar panels. And if I wasn't renting, i'd do the same thing.

Solar is fine we have it on our house, but when there is an outage we still sit in the dark so to speak, and the hotter the ambient temperature the less power the solar panels make.

[kmav23]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

The issue that no one ever mentions I how are vision impaired pedestrians going to be able to cope with all these near silent electric cars getting about?
Sure the ones with guide dogs will be ok, but that's only a small percentage.

Technology....

They will work something out no need to worry about it.

[kmav23]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

We have been hearing that forever, but EV prices are still ridiculous.

What do you mean forever?

Ice has been around 100 years..

EVs are in its infancy and prices are falling every year and technology is advancing.

Looks at the amount of EVs in California china.

[kmav23]

Originally Posted by Officemanager

Hybrids will be around a very long time considering the supporting infrastructure for EV's is very limited if any virtually non existent.
The roll out of EV charging stations will not happen overnight.


Cheers.

I believe by 2025 we will have EVs same price as Ice cars.

People will buy them due to fuel and maintenance cost savings as well as all the technology

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by kmav23

I believe by 2025 we will have EVs same price as Ice cars.

People will buy them due to fuel and maintenance cost savings as well as all the technology

Price has nothing to do with it what I stated, you will be still driving fossil fuel cars and EV's will not progress as much.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

We have been hearing that forever, but EV prices are still ridiculous.

At one stage people thought electric trains would never take off...

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Sabantien

A big problem in Australia is we burn coal to power them, and that's more the incompetence of our governments than anything else. Our power stations are old, they need replacing, but they keep holding onto the idea that coal is best (read, lines their pockets) even though every other market is transitioning away. Even BHP is giving up on thermal coal.

Another factor is Governments are also charged with keeping people in jobs. 750 jobs were lost when they closed Hazlewood

Originally Posted by Sabantien

But it's slowly changing anyhow. My town just opened a geothermal power plant. Every other town out here has big solar farms. Unfortunately it doesn't help us out when the line goes down from Townsville. We all lose power. It's not set up to supply the town independently. A lot of the houses and businesses in town are plastered with solar panels. And if I wasn't renting, i'd do the same thing.

As a home owner I've had plenty on door knocking and phone calls from people selling Solar. offering so, called rebates.

I've looked at the figures It can be 15-20 years to get payback - where I live (VIC) we used the most power in winter when its dark, so you really need to spend extra on a battery system

Solar panels also have reduced efficiency so by the time you get payback they will be out of warranty and operating under 80% efficiency.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by Sabantien

Banning them? That's ridiculous.
As has already been pointed out, the battery tech keeps changing, and it's likely there'll be better options than lithium going forward.

A big problem in Australia is we burn coal to power them, and that's more the incompetence of our governments than anything else. Our power stations are old, they need replacing, but they keep holding onto the idea that coal is best (read, lines their pockets) even though every other market is transitioning away. Even BHP is giving up on thermal coal.

But it's slowly changing anyhow. My town just opened a geothermal power plant. Every other town out here has big solar farms. Unfortunately it doesn't help us out when the line goes down from Townsville. We all lose power. It's not set up to supply the town independently. A lot of the houses and businesses in town are plastered with solar panels. And if I wasn't renting, i'd do the same thing.

While I don't think people should be forced onto EV, if it suits them, go nuts. It would be great in the city, so long as you have a parking spot. Not everyone does in the inner city.

And being a greenie doesn't mean wanting to go back to the stone age.
Everything we do will have an impact. Greenies happen to like our natural environment, want to live in a clean environment, and try to reduce impact. Reduce. Doesn't go away.

This has been proven a lie time and again. Communism dressed in environmental facade/farce...

[Franco Cozzo]

The way we live isn't sustainable - but I'll be dead before this starts becoming a problem

My favorite type of problem - someone else's

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Nuclear would be the way to go but no Politician would dare suggest it.

Solar is fine we have it on our house, but when there is an outage we still sit in the dark so to speak, and the hotter the ambient temperature the less power the solar panels make.

The Australian people are being keep in the dark at all cost on Nuclear power, what people think of is that Nuclear power is still the same old backwards insane crap as was used.
The world did not advance in Nuclear power technology for many years as all such was held back deliberately, so we see the USA using Nuclear power Stations that resemble T Model Fords tec, that is just how backward that they are.

If the Greens were truly Green they would demand that all old T Model nuclear plants be shut down and build the latest tec Gen 3 power Stations or better. they use the old wast as well not to mention that we have 150 years worth of this dangerous crap just siting around in cased in lead.

I remember our moron ex PM Bob Hawk came out wanting all the worlds spent nuclear waste come to Australia and dump it out in our desert and back then I thought is he truly that stupid, that he does not know that that waste is good fuel that is used up in the Gen 3 stations, it's worth 150 years of the worlds power for crying out loud, what a moron !

We don't even have to dig up yellow cake for a 150 years ! we have 150 years of free fuel just sitting there that is toxic and after this crap is used in the Gen 3 plant the waste from that is only toxic for 100 or so years after that you can eat it.