Driving skill experiment.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Only problem with where you may be going, is that you have no idea about how things will work when all traffic at once is trying to go 80km/h in a 60km/h zone, Ive got a fair idea......carnage and mayhem.

Many moons ago 10-20kmh over the posted limit was standard procedure on Dandenong Rd
(It could still be the norm, I haven't been back there for a while.)

Come to think of it there were quite a few metro roads around Syd where if you drive at the posted speed limit you'd hold up traffic and get abused.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by sudszy

What troubles me here is your intent, and this ^ raises the cynic in me. If we all go through the ambulance driver training routine and pass, then it appears to me that you are suggesting that we can up the speed limits by 20km/h. Im sure you will probably tell us how safe ambulances are statistically.

Only problem with where you may be going, is that you have no idea about how things will work when all traffic at once is trying to go 80km/h in a 60km/h zone, Ive got a fair idea......carnage and mayhem.

So i guess your a glass half empty type person, stop looking for faults in peoples posts because im getting tired of it.

[93EB_SXR6]

May I add that a big thing that the emergency services have over the "average driver" is the use of their radios.
Surely this is worth at least 30% of why they are able to drive at a higher speed than the average Joe.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by StrokedXT

So you are advising that you should pay less attention at lower speeds?



Fairly sure that is the majority of accidents, surely your qualifications and extensive experience would totally block out any distractions behind the wheel?

My only response to you my friend is:

"Those of you without sin cast the first stone"

You are ridiculous and looking for an argument, and this is the best you are going to get, now go away and let the adults talk in peace.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by flappist

What are you personal experiences driving long distances on a road in a road car with passengers at speeds of 130, 140, 150, 200 and/or above?

A lot when I was young, but not recently.

But a fast driver does not make a good driver

[93EB_SXR6]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

Gecko,
Great idea
Coupla things come to mind
Many years ago i watch a clip of a coupla drinkers whom profeesed that alcohol didnt effect them
For the purpose of the clip
Three blokes were supplied drinks
Tests were conducted
1 test was, as a loud bang was heard (immulate a crash or hit)
They were told to hit the picks
Not 1 hit the picks straight away
So the alcohol fueled race car drivers (who they thought they were )
Failed every test
Now i know a few big drinkers could pass similar tests with flying colours
But rules are for all,so thats why we have them

Regarding "expert " drivers
For me the 1 1/2 hr drive from where i live to caboolture (Brissie northside)
Involves people overtaking on double lines,overtaking on blind corners,tailgating when theres nowhere to pass (why bother)
Just the other day
A little 4 banger overtook a b double truck double white lines with two 4x4s coming straight at
Everyone was hard on the picks

I ask why, whats the rush
Im not in a hurry to meet the maker,yet

Its kinda funny those who have constant crashes,or hit things (human error)
Still profess they are good drivers
I think a test should be conducted by who professess the loudest
Watch for all the excuses

I have also seen the drink driving one.
Very old school Aussie thing, loved the accents.

[uranium_death]

With regards to people thinking their car is better and that they're driving skill is superior - most people also consider themselves to be above the average IQ.

Same principle me thinks?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

A lot when I was young, but not recently.

But a fast driver does not make a good driver

But neither does a slow driver.....

And what you are saying is that the only experience you have driving fast is in old technology rattle traps with low performance suspension, brakes, dynamics and no computer driver aids?

You do realise that a F6 XR6 N/A is a higher performance vehicle than a phase 3 GTHO as shown an many recent tests don't you.....

[StrokedXT]

Originally Posted by flappist

You are not the only one who has played on the track over the years.

130 is NOT high intensity driving on long straight roads where you can see cars disappear over the horizon.
But again you are picturing this in your local area.
There are no stop signs or blind intersections etc. way out in woop woop.
Animals are there at night but hardly during the day.

High speeds must work as almost all of the world has higher speed limits than Australia on various roads and even we have several 130 limits and used to have open until the southern agenda pushers got hold of NT.

There are quite a number of members here who drive 120-130 on a regular basis and have done so for many many years.

The biggest problem with increasing any speed limit is IF the road toll dropped or stayed the same instead of going up the a lot of "experts" would be shown to be WRONG. And if you are WRONG then you cannot be an "expert" can you........

Legal studies 1:01. NEVER ask a question to which you do not already know the answer.

But as an aside.

What are you personal experiences driving long distances on a road in a road car with passengers at speeds of 130, 140, 150, 200 and/or above?

Rarely share the same point of view as yourself sir but you are bang on here

[302 XC]

Heres a thing with road tolls, just for a sec

If for arguements sake theres 150 deaths on QLD roads last year
Now IF theres 1,500 people a month moving over the border
And next year toll rises to 160
Does the road death toll go up ???
Well buy 10 deaths ,yes
But per capita , no

18,000 population increase with 10 additional deaths
Wouldnt call that a major increase

Any death is a death , of course
But im over the government bashing regarding road death tolls

I wonder IF every 5 years everyone had to pass a stringent test to keep there licence

Gee there would be alot of pushbikes around the place

[T3man]

I'm with you 100% on this one flappist.

I disagree mostly with the stated concept that driving at higher speed requires more concentration and is therefore a cause of fatigue. It is my firm belief, and most taught theory, that if the driver is totally immersed in full concentration for the job at hand ie driving, then the chance of distraction, and therefore having a potential "incident", is minimised. I know from personal experience (driving literally millions of kms both for a living and for pleasure) that driving at lower speeds on deserted, low risk roads is extremely tiring and I have to take many more rest periods when driving in such conditions.

I also must state with the utmost emphasis that, regardless of the speed, anyone who isn't able to devote 100% attention is simply an accident going somewhere to happen. It takes just as much concentration to drive correctly regardless of the speed. In fact there is a huge argument that if you drive too slowly for the conditions then your thought process also slows and so does your reaction times.

[RAREV8]

Having lived and driven in countries with 130kph speed limits in high density areas I disagree with the generic "speed kills" stigma- having discussed this with the instructors at Murcotts and a couple of highway patrol officers, they clarified that when an accident is quoted as "speed related", it does not necessarily mean speeds above the posted limit but speeds inappropriate for the road/traffic conditions.....more often than not when "speed was a contributing factor" it is not because the speed limit was broken but the driver was travelling faster than the conditions demanded.
i.e. driving at 30kph in a 60kph zone would be inappropriate if the traffic flow was at 10kph

Additionally, some road limits are poorly thought through and in many cases are posted far too HIGH for the road conditions (sections of the Bells Line of Road come to mind)
In contrast, much of the straight highways around Griffith and Wagga have been reduced to 100kph or lower where the conditions are definitely safe to exceed this.

Hoping I don't need to clarify, but this doesn't mean that I condone driving over posted limits just because you think you know better!

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

Heres a thing with road tolls, just for a sec

If for arguements sake theres 150 deaths on QLD roads last year
Now IF theres 1,500 people a month moving over the border
And next year toll rises to 160
Does the road death toll go up ???
Well buy 10 deaths ,yes
But per capita , no

18,000 population increase with 10 additional deaths
Wouldnt call that a major increase

Any death is a death , of course
But im over the government bashing regarding road death tolls

I wonder IF every 5 years everyone had to pass a stringent test to keep there licence

Gee there would be alot of pushbikes around the place

Yes, I agree, a change in 10 of any states road toll is neither here nor there, within normal variances, however, your arithmetic is way out on your per capita example of not calling 10 deaths out of a population increase of 18000 a major increase.

Latest stats put the per rate at 6.8 per 100 000 of population, your suggested rate of 56 per 100 000 or an annual toll of over 12 000 certainly would be termed significant.

[Road Games]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Yes, I agree, blah blah blah ***'n blah.

So whats everyone doin' tomorrow ?

[StrokedXT]

Originally Posted by RAREV8

Having lived and driven in countries with 130kph speed limits in high density areas I disagree with the generic "speed kills" stigma- having discussed this with the instructors at Murcotts and a couple of highway patrol officers, they clarified that when an accident is quoted as "speed related", it does not necessarily mean speeds above the posted limit but speeds inappropriate for the road/traffic conditions.....more often than not when "speed was a contributing factor" it is not because the speed limit was broken but the driver was travelling faster than the conditions demanded.

correct less than 4% of fatalities in aus occur at 100 or above.

[xisled]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Many moons ago 10-20kmh over the posted limit was standard procedure on Dandenong Rd
(It could still be the norm, I haven't been back there for a while.)

Come to think of it there were quite a few metro roads around Syd where if you drive at the posted speed limit you'd hold up traffic and get abused.

Go down to Dandenong road on a friday night and see it has not changed. LOL

[FgNewbie]

Originally Posted by StrokedXT

correct less than 4% of fatalities in aus occur at 100 or above.

Maybe I missed it, what is your source please?

[IDT]

Does the Road Toll/s stated count passengers and drivers or drivers alone. Its a pointless exercise is it not? i.e. If a bus leaves the road at 150 kph after the brakes fail and bursts into flames killing 50 passengers is it a speed related incident or vehicle fault and what is the resulting toll as measured as a statistic?

Whilst the original idea at the start of the thread "to test people" sounds good in theory it has a number of flaws. To me the obvious one, is the test one of safe driving or legal driving? If its safe driving how is risk scored and what hazards will be used and where does risk perception fit in? If its a test of knowledge of the law you need not do any driving just a written test.
Where then does mechanical knowledge fit when considering identifying a road worthy vehicle vs identifying a non roadworthy vehicle etc? Finally, to have validity you would need participant feedback? Which may result in those who attended explaining why they got it wrong. Now that would be interesting!!!

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by WAForce8

Whilst the original idea at the start of the thread "to test people" sounds good in theory it has a number of flaws. To me the obvious one, is the test one of safe driving or legal driving? If its safe driving how is risk scored and what hazards will be used and where does risk perception fit in? If its a test of knowledge of the law you need not do any driving just a written test.
Where then does mechanical knowledge fit when considering identifying a road worthy vehicle vs identifying a non roadworthy vehicle etc? Finally, to have validity you would need participant feedback? Which may result in those who attended explaining why they got it wrong. Now that would be interesting!!!

Thats right, that was what the topic was about, I had forgotten.

To answer your questions.

The test is about testing safe road driving habits and hazard detection, assessment and mitigation methods in experienced drivers.

The scoring system is yet to be sorted but I have some ideas, much the same as we are tested on our driving.

No simulated hazards as they do not work, you know where they are. Just normal everyday road hazards, there are hundreds of them, although many do not realise they are actually hazards and just drive oblivious to them.

No mechanical knowledge test, the only road worthy test for the vehicle is the instructor checking the condition of the vehicle before he trusts his life to it. If it has bald tyres, ABS/airbag lights on, cracked glass, frayed seat belts, loose seats etc, leave it at home as the instructor will not get in it (you would be amazed at what people turn up in).

The participant feedback form might be a part of it, yet to work out the finer details.

Lets not forget, this is at expressions of interest stage to see if it is worth the effort putting it together. This is important to me as it will take a lot of effort and time when I should be doing some hard core study. In fact I may put it on the back burner for a month or two until I have my big exam out of the way (9th of next month). The design of the test will be done with some input from the instructors.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by flappist

But neither does a slow driver.....

And what you are saying is that the only experience you have driving fast is in old technology rattle traps with low performance suspension, brakes, dynamics and no computer driver aids?

You do realise that a F6 XR6 N/A is a higher performance vehicle than a phase 3 GTHO as shown an many recent tests don't you.....

Play the ball, not the man


Your stupid statements don't warrant anymore of a response than that given above. I am not going to justify myself to ridiculous statements like that.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by T3man

I disagree mostly with the stated concept that driving at higher speed requires more concentration and is therefore a cause of fatigue.

I disagree with your disagreement

Originally Posted by T3man

It is my firm belief, and most taught theory, that if the driver is totally immersed in full concentration for the job at hand ie driving, then the chance of distraction, and therefore having a potential "incident", is minimised.

So, you have never heard of anyone being totally fatigued due to higher concentration levels (regardless of task), never heard of someone saying that they are "mentally knacered"?

Originally Posted by T3man

I know from personal experience (driving literally millions of kms both for a living and for pleasure) that driving at lower speeds on deserted, low risk roads is extremely tiring and I have to take many more rest periods when driving in such conditions.

I know from personal experience that you are talking from "your" experience, and I know for a fact that your epxeriences are not those of others

Originally Posted by T3man

I also must state with the utmost emphasis that, regardless of the speed, anyone who isn't able to devote 100% attention is simply an accident going somewhere to happen. It takes just as much concentration to drive correctly regardless of the speed. In fact there is a huge argument that if you drive too slowly for the conditions then your thought process also slows and so does your reaction times.

Absolutely correct.

[Trevor 57]

But to get back onto topic.

It will be interesting to read the results of these observed drives, I don't reckon the attitudes and behaviours have gotten any better since I did it last.

What has surprised me is the increased agression levels demonstrated by drivers these days, my regular journey's into the 'big smoke' never cease to amaze me with the risks people are prepared to take with little understanding that they are actually putting themselves and others at risk.

I do understand their frustrations driving in city conditions on a daily basis, I frequently say "I don't know how people do this every day".

With the increase in population in our cities and the minimal improvement in traffic management, including new, faster moving roads, it is quite understandable (kind of) why there are so many aggressive drivers.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

Play the ball, not the man


Your stupid statements don't warrant anymore of a response than that given above. I am not going to justify myself to ridiculous statements like that.

Is that how you play the ball not the man?

If you are going to tout your personal experience as the basis for your expert opinion do not get upset when the currency of your experience is questioned......

You have stated you are a heavy vehicle driving trainer in the smallest and most heavily "nannied" mainland state in Australia and have been so for decades.
You have further stated you have not driven modern cars on modern roads and high speed.

So what is the basis of your position other than following the training dogma from your school provided by the people who base a significant part of your operating budget on income from speed cameras?

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by flappist

You have further stated you have not driven modern cars on modern roads and high speed.

where did I state that?

I just sold a 2008 Ford and purchased a November 2010 build Ford.

Originally Posted by flappist

So what is the basis of your position other than following the training dogma from your school provided by the people who base a significant part of your operating budget on income from speed cameras?

what is this dribble supposed to mean?

[302 XC]

gecko,
Still sounds like a great idea

I think with some comparisons between those in this thread
IE
Some who drive city roads, late model,outerlimits older models,dedicated car drivers,truck drivers what have you
It would certainly sort the
"Im good", nah "Im better"
I think to throw a cat amongst the pigeons
Maybe compare those with a good driving history and those with a terrible driving history
It would prove those with a terrible history have imporved there skills

[T3man]

Quote:
Originally Posted by T3man
I disagree mostly with the stated concept that driving at higher speed requires more concentration and is therefore a cause of fatigue.

I disagree with your disagreement So do you have any evidence to support your theory on this? See my more detailed response below ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by T3man
It is my firm belief, and most taught theory, that if the driver is totally immersed in full concentration for the job at hand ie driving, then the chance of distraction, and therefore having a potential "incident", is minimised.

So, you have never heard of anyone being totally fatigued due to higher concentration levels (regardless of task), never heard of someone saying that they are "mentally knacered"? Yes, I have heard of it - I've also heard of the Easter Bunny. What I'd like to know is how someone can regulate their concentration to match the speed they are driving which is what you are suggesting? It is my long held belief that regardless of the speed a driver must give 100% concentration which you have agreed with elsewhere so your own position on this seems confused. The simple fact is that the longer one does any chore the risk of fatigue increases so when concentrating fully one must have regular rest periods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T3man
I know from personal experience (driving literally millions of kms both for a living and for pleasure) that driving at lower speeds on deserted, low risk roads is extremely tiring and I have to take many more rest periods when driving in such conditions.

I know from personal experience that you are talking from "your" experience, and I know for a fact that your epxeriences are not those of others

Quote:
Originally Posted by T3man
I also must state with the utmost emphasis that, regardless of the speed, anyone who isn't able to devote 100% attention is simply an accident going somewhere to happen. It takes just as much concentration to drive correctly regardless of the speed. In fact there is a huge argument that if you drive too slowly for the conditions then your thought process also slows and so does your reaction times.

Absolutely correct. And this is where you actually contradict yourself - I have said the same thing consistently but honestly can't see your two views having continuity ...

[divine_afg]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Many moons ago 10-20kmh over the posted limit was standard procedure on Dandenong Rd
(It could still be the norm, I haven't been back there for a while.)

Come to think of it there were quite a few metro roads around Syd where if you drive at the posted speed limit you'd hold up traffic and get abused.

Not quite the norm anymore, HWYPatrols and Police presence makes it hard nowadays. Since the incident with bob jane they have been hard on.
You can still speed if you wanted to just gotta now when and where.

[FreddyDUZ747]

Nyaaawwwww,rules and all..........

[MAD]

I'd be very interested in the test.
I'd love to see how I stack up, and it would be a great opportunity to find any areas that might need improvement.
You cant improve something if you dont know there is something wrong with it.

[FgNewbie]

Originally Posted by T3man

.... And this is where you actually contradict yourself - I have said the same thing consistently but honestly can't see your two views having continuity ...[/COLOR]

I have to think in extremes to agree with one school of thought. Based on my own experience, I accept there are scenarios where both schools of thought are applicable. Adrenaline is part of my equation. Physical and mental stamina too.