Orion/FG/E8 platform could run until 2016?

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Yeah, and then neither happened....So what happened to all that money?

It went to another program. Government money for car manufactures isn't free. They work in the form of grants where the car company has to invest its own money and then get a percentage from the government.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Yeah, and then neither happened....So what happened to all that money?

Some of the money went into developing three fuel efficient engines for Falcon and Territory,
I'm sure if Ford saw an opportunity to export, the government would throw
some money their way, the timing sounds right and an election is in the wind....

[ltd]

Well having just read the new top gear magazine, they're convinced that the falcon will be gone in 2015, so I'm guessing that the big announcement will be for the development of the next falcon.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by ltd

Well having just read the new top gear magazine, they're convinced that the falcon will be gone in 2015, so I'm guessing that the big announcement will be for the development of the next falcon.

Mmm nah I wouldn't bet on it. If the next gen on-sale date is sometime in 2016 that's a long time in today's terms to develop a car. Burela is quoted as saying they don't have to make a decision until next year or 2012 so I don't think they'll tip their hand until closer to that date.

It could be that I6 export deal for the airport tugs has come to fruition.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

Gee your post has a real nautical theme... ?

I hope so as that would be using the dark sides tactics against itself..........

Just trying to coax JPFS1 without getting into nda trouble.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

It could be that I6 export deal for the airport tugs has come to fruition.

A few thoughts:
1)I don't think sources would be clamming up about just an engine export deal....
2)Ford could commit to an 8th generation Falcon well before the 2012 dead line.
3) Mondeo S/W = Falcon S/W replacement? <- Mondeo sales say nope

[Nikked]

Is an export deal still of value to Ford AU, given that GM-H struggled with it?

If there is (and we all hope so) a new RWD falcon after the FG series, you can bet that its being worked on now. Given that the focus deal fell flat, the falcon is getting the 4cly and the need of a falcon-type car in some other countries could all be interpreted as a sign of a Australian based GRWD deal...weather that means the current Falcon, or a post 2015-6 model.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Carsguide

"We can study that space," he says. "Right now the jury is very much out but there is no question that there are alternatives out there that can satisfy the motoring enthusiast as well as the general car buyer."

One of those alternatives is a locally produced version of the North American Ford Taurus, which has a sophisticated 3.5-litre V6 powering both front and all-wheel drive models.

The way Marin has spoken of this in the past gave the impression of indifference to which wheels drove the Falcon. Now I feel a little better about it all.

Reading the underlined part of the article would be the automatic conclusion in our interpretation of what MB is getting at. However, considering wes' post below, which as an alternative (and sane) view, would mean Taurus would be imported (if required), and Falcon will always remain... a Falcon.

Originally Posted by wescoent

GRWD is indeed confirmed, but this study will determine whether to aim the Falcon as a larger or smaller car.

If consumers prefer FWD, the Taurus will come and the Falcon will shrink.

If consumers prefer RWD, the Falcon will remain large and the Taurus will not be imported.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

The way Marin has spoken of this in the past gave the impression of indifference to which wheels drove the Falcon. Now I feel a little better about it all.

Reading the underlined part of the article would be the automatic conclusion in our interpretation of what MB is getting at. However, considering wes' post below, which as an alternative (and sane) view, would mean Taurus would be imported (if required), and Falcon will always remain... a Falcon.

We live in interesting times...

Originally Posted by wescoent
GRWD is indeed confirmed, but this study will determine whether to aim the Falcon as a larger or smaller car.

If consumers prefer FWD, the Taurus will come and the Falcon will shrink.

If consumers prefer RWD, the Falcon will remain large and the Taurus will not be imported.

There's not enough difference in size between Falcon and Taurus, they occupy the same spot.
So, do you sell them side by side or make Falcon smaller (and share with Mustang?)

If Ford imported the Taurus and made the Falcon smaller it would throw the cosmos out of alignment,
Ford could not ask upwards of $40,000 for a mid sized Falcon, it would become $28,000 cannon fodder.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by jpd80

There's not enough difference in size between Falcon and Taurus, they occupy the same spot.
So, do you sell them side by side or make Falcon smaller (and share with Mustang?)

We live in interesting times...



If Ford imported the Taurus and made the Falcon smaller it would throw the cosmos out of alignment,
Ford could not ask upwards of $40,000 for a mid sized Falcon, it would become $28,000 cannon fodder.

When MB is talking about studying/researching which "direction" it'll go, in reality the final decision won't be based off his findings but more to do with the bigger role the locals will play. This puts the smaller Falcon out of the picture.

The post quoted was just another view I hadn't seen elsewhere thus worthy of posting. If it shrinks then it'll only be offered as a niche premium, also shared globally.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

When MB is talking about studying/researching which "direction" it'll go, in reality the final decision won't be based off his findings but more to do with the bigger role the locals will play. This puts the smaller Falcon out of the picture.

The post quoted was just another view I hadn't seen elsewhere thus worthy of posting. If it shrinks then it'll only be offered as a niche premium, also shared globally.

OK I see what you're saying now, so Falcon stays as the
big car in Aussie but also maybe a mid sized derivative?

I like that idea, it's something that's been on my mind for quite a while,
companion to Mustang and perfect for replacing low local sales of Mondeo.....

[Road_Warrior]

I did pose the question earlier about smaller RWD variants...but whilst I think a 'smaller' Falcon is plausible, I don't think it will fly here, pardon the pun. Lincoln appears to be the key here.

Also - isnt the Taurus moving to a common platform with the Mondeo and Fusion or has that been changed now?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I did pose the question earlier about smaller RWD variants...but whilst I think a 'smaller' Falcon is plausible, I don't think it will fly here, pardon the pun. Lincoln appears to be the key here.

Also - isnt the Taurus moving to a common platform with the Mondeo and Fusion or has that been changed now?

A rumor, probably find that CD4 Fusion/Mondeo and Taurus will share power
train and electrical systems - a lot of the the expensive engineering stuff.


What I was thinking For was a down sized variant as well as Falcon to replace the Mondeo.
So instead of Falcon/Fairlane, we have something like Falcon/Cortina perhaps
as a Falcon / Mustang collaboration on a global scheme......

[Road_Warrior]

So you're talking about a RWD C/D and E platform...or do you think they'll scrap the E size (given that Falcon and Panther cars are the only ones left in the Ford empire)

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

So you're talking about a RWD C/D and E platform...or do you think they'll scrap the E size (given that Falcon and Panther cars are the only ones left in the Ford empire)

No a RWD D/E platform that can build a midsized sedan and Mustang as well as current small E Falcon.
Falcon is currently on E8, a full sized platform that covers small E Falcon and true E Fairlane.

If we had a RWD Mid sized car that had the 2.0 Ecoboost and corporate engines,
wecould skip Mondeo/Focus and maybe just go with Fiesta, Mid sizer(Futura) and Falcon.
The mid sizer could also be built in the states along side the Mustang sharing its front end
perhaps rekindling the name Maverick, the successor to Falcon over there...

[Road_Warrior]

Don't forget, they need to account for a CUV in that mix as well...

I wonder if Lincoln want a RWD-biased SUV to take on the BMW X5 and others of its ilk...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Don't forget, they need to account for a CUV in that mix as well...

I wonder if Lincoln want a RWD-biased SUV to take on the BMW X5 and others of its ilk...

Territory is a separate platform to Falcon, only about 40% of parts are shared between the two,
that being all the important expensive bits. Framing floor pan glass and trim are all unique to each.


I recon we could load Lincoln chock full of RWDs and get a better score than all
the D3s they have now, Sedan, coupe, LWB sedan, SUV, convertible coupe....

All of those could be on GRWD and shared with Ford NA as Falcon, Mustang, Territory and Fairlane/Galaxie...

[OZQUAD44]

This is all sounding fantastic, the current falcon is the goods, and the next lot of engines sound the goods too. Its good to be a blue blood at the moment.... Go FoA!


What was that about the Commodore not being made after 2012.... :-P

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by jpd80

OK I see what you're saying now, so Falcon stays as the
big car in Aussie but also maybe a mid sized derivative?

I like that idea, it's something that's been on my mind for quite a while,
companion to Mustang and perfect for replacing low local sales of Mondeo.....

Reality is if there were to be a GRWD - which in time looks very likely - the least we'd expect is both a short & long wheelbase.

The question becomes what strategy does Ford go with to equip Lincoln in becoming a top-shelf Euro beater? And to what extent do they go to? That is, to re-invent themselves as much as I think is required, to be seen as a serious player they need to go back to their roots and get a little extravagant and produce some super-sized luxury models. That, you can't do with fwd. Without stating the obvious the only way for Falcon to survive beyond 2016, as a RWD is directly linked to what Ford US does with Lincoln.

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

. Without stating the obvious the only way for Falcon to survive beyond 2016, as a RWD is directly linked to what Ford US does with Lincoln.

This is the best thing that could happen... why?
Because Lincoln will be built to compete wiz ze germans zats vhy!

Falcon will most likely then become a premium product with lots of performance engine and luxury appointments (think G6et and G8e but turned up to eleven) They will be able to spend alot more on R&D because the costs will be shared over greater volume. refinement, quality and innovation in design will increase!! awesome!!

This is possibly the worst thing also... why?
Because falcon will not be wholely and solely designed for australian roads people or tastes.

Am i right in thinking though that because of FoA's experience with RWD and lack there-of anywhere else, regardless of what they decide (to kill falcon or not) if they decide that GRWD goes ahead alot of the work for GRWD will be done in Aus ?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

This is the best thing that could happen... why?
Because Lincoln will be built to compete wiz ze germans zats vhy!

Falcon will most likely then become a premium product with lots of performance engine and luxury appointments (think G6et and G8e but turned up to eleven) They will be able to spend alot more on R&D because the costs will be shared over greater volume. refinement, quality and innovation in design will increase!! awesome!!

This is possibly the worst thing also... why?
Because falcon will not be wholely and solely designed for australian roads people or tastes.

Am i right in thinking though that because of FoA's experience with RWD and lack there-of anywhere else, regardless of what they decide (to kill falcon or not) if they decide that GRWD goes ahead alot of the work for GRWD will be done in Aus ?

Sure will and probably be a heavy evolution of our current E8, who's to say that Ford NA
haven't already been investigating "things" for future Lincolns using our E8?
So what if Falcon becomes a local variation for Australian conditions, provided the engineering
for the I-6 is preserved or at least allowed for in the front structure, all is well for our favorite car....

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Reality is if there were to be a GRWD - which in time looks very likely - the least we'd expect is both a short & long wheelbase.

The question becomes what strategy does Ford go with to equip Lincoln in becoming a top-shelf Euro beater? And to what extent do they go to? That is, to re-invent themselves as much as I think is required, to be seen as a serious player they need to go back to their roots and get a little extravagant and produce some super-sized luxury models. That, you can't do with fwd. Without stating the obvious the only way for Falcon to survive beyond 2016, as a RWD is directly linked to what Ford US does with Lincoln.

Im not as excited about Lincoln as the rest of everyone. I dont see it becoming a Euro-fighter. The costs of establishing the brand as high-end is extraordinary. It would take years to establish the image and dealer network. Also Ford would have seen the failure of Cadillac to become global so Lincoln will continue to be focused on North America and hence not really require a RWD platform.

If Ford was serious about this end of the market they wouldnt have sold Volvo, Jaguar and LandRover/Range Rover. At best I see Lincoln being a Acura fighter with a range of SUV and passenger vehicles based on existing Ford platforms with top of range being based on AWD Taurus.

The Falcon may come into all this, but that would be because Ford wants to utlilise the Falcon platform as a way of justifying its existence not because they actually need or want a top of range RWD car.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Im not as excited about Lincoln as the rest of everyone. I dont see it becoming a Euro-fighter. The costs of establishing the brand as high-end is extraordinary. It would take years to establish the image and dealer network. Also Ford would have seen the failure of Cadillac to become global so Lincoln will continue to be focused on North America and hence not really require a RWD platform.

If Ford was serious about this end of the market they wouldnt have sold Volvo, Jaguar and LandRover/Range Rover. At best I see Lincoln being a Acura fighter with a range of SUV and passenger vehicles based on existing Ford platforms with top of range being based on AWD Taurus.

The Falcon may come into all this, but that would be because Ford wants to utlilise the Falcon platform as a way of justifying its existence not because they actually need or want a top of range RWD car.

Lincoln becoming a euro fighter has more to do with its home market in North America, not Europe. There's no image and dealer networks to be established there.

And the prime reason for Ford offloading PAG was that PAG was a massive resource and money hog, ran at a loss, and diverted Ford's resourcing away from its own luxury brand which is - guess what - Lincoln. Look at what happened to Lincoln during the PAG years - it had to make do with rehashed FWD platforms from Ford. Before PAG, it had all manner of high-end luxury cars that people bought and loved.

Now that PAG is out of the way and the drain on precious financial and R&D resources is gone, Lincoln is now going to get the attention that is deserving of the name.

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by Brazen

If Ford was serious about this end of the market they wouldnt have sold Volvo, Jaguar and LandRover/Range Rover. At best I see Lincoln being a Acura fighter with a range of SUV and passenger vehicles based on existing Ford platforms with top of range being based on AWD Taurus.

And then they would have ended up in the same basket as GM and Chrystler. Jaguar and LR let Tata to their first ever loss, they required massive investments which Ford couldn't meet...

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Lincoln becoming a euro fighter has more to do with its home market in North America, not Europe. There's no image and dealer networks to be established there.

And the prime reason for Ford offloading PAG was that PAG was a massive resource and money hog, ran at a loss, and diverted Ford's resourcing away from its own luxury brand which is - guess what - Lincoln. Look at what happened to Lincoln during the PAG years - it had to make do with rehashed FWD platforms from Ford. Before PAG, it had all manner of high-end luxury cars that people bought and loved.

Now that PAG is out of the way and the drain on precious financial and R&D resources is gone, Lincoln is now going to get the attention that is deserving of the name.

Yeah I was referring to the US dealers needing to be established as a luxury dealer network. Most current Lincoln dealers are a joke, some are paired with Kia or Hyundai. A lot of Americans buy a vehicle on prestige and image the current dealer network does not cut it. Also Lincoln has not the best reputation in the US, the Navigator and ancient Town Car has painted Lincoln as a domestic gaudy brand. Although the latest vehicles are changing that, it will take time and money.

Maybe Falcon could be used to help build the image. But the fact is I am always suspect of positive announcements to offset negative announcements. Announcing that Lincoln will become this euro-fighter at the same time announcing that Mercury is dead just seems to be a little bit of lip-service to offset the bad news.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

And then they would have ended up in the same basket as GM and Chrystler. Jaguar and LR let Tata to their first ever loss, they required massive investments which Ford couldn't meet...

If Ford cannot meet the investment requirements of existing established luxury marques, then there is no way they can do the same to make a marque catch-up and compete at that level whilst re-establishing the dealer network and improving its image.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Im not as excited about Lincoln as the rest of everyone. I dont see it becoming a Euro-fighter. The costs of establishing the brand as high-end is extraordinary. It would take years to establish the image and dealer network.

No there's an easier way, sell Lincolns through Ford dealerships as the Uber brand to have.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Maybe Falcon could be used to help build the image. But the fact is I am always suspect of positive announcements to offset negative announcements. Announcing that Lincoln will become this euro-fighter at the same time announcing that Mercury is dead just seems to be a little bit of lip-service to offset the bad news.

Forget the Euro fighter tag, that's what GM does and turns Lincoln, Buick and such into fighters.
The truth is that they all sound like wannabe failures.

Neither lincoln nor Cadillac or even Lexus has anything like the snob
value of Mercedes, BMW, Audi or even Jaguar - and never will.

Ford should just build quality luxury vehicles their market research
points to and forget abut directly competing with euro brands,
just be better than Cadillac and Lexus....

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Forget the Euro fighter tag, that's what GM does and turns Lincoln, Buick and such into fighters.
The truth is that they all sound like wannabe failures.

Neither lincoln nor Cadillac or even Lexus has anything like the snob
value of Mercedes, BMW, Audi or even Jaguar - and never will.

Ford should just build quality luxury vehicles their market research
points to and forget abut directly competing with euro brands,
just be better than Cadillac and Lexus....

Yes forget the Euro's. Ford is benchmarking Toyota in terms of business strategy with one core brand - Ford Vs Toyota and one premium brand Lincoln Vs Lexus. I know there is another Toyota brand; a youth brand? (is it Scion or something?) in the US, but Ford wants to apply this model globally and the core Ford brand has enough of that hip-youth appeal in most global markets to not need another sub-brand.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

Yes forget the Euro's. Ford is benchmarking Toyota in terms of business strategy with one core brand - Ford Vs Toyota and one premium brand Lincoln Vs Lexus. I know there is another Toyota brand; a youth brand? (is it Scion or something?) in the US, but Ford wants to apply this model globally and the core Ford brand has enough of that hip-youth appeal in most global markets to not need another sub-brand.

Yeah,its scion. And one of Scions main cars is being introduced to Australia, or has been introduced, as the Toyota Ruckus.