holden leaving australia?

[ray38l]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Back to the imports: If the import tariff is "only" 5%, then why are a lot of imported cars worth up to twice here what they sell for overseas? Why do cars that, in Europe for example, are ordinary family cars or taxis, have to be sold here as "luxury prestige" models because of thier price? Using the 300C as an example, in the USA it starts at just under $28,000. Because of our rediculous restrictions on LHD cars, we have to get the specially built RHD version here, but surely that doesn't cover doubling the price for even the base model V6 here...

will you get over the fact that you cant buy a new left hand drive in Australia? Every thread about imported cars has you going on about how stupid it is that you cant drive them here. Get over it.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ray38l

will you get over the fact that you cant buy a new left hand drive in Australia? Every thread about imported cars has you going on about how stupid it is that you cant drive them here. Get over it.

Well we have to put up with your constant pro holden babble.

At least he has logic and reasoning in his posts on the subject.......

[IDT]

Sick to death of hearing that so many assume that if Holden goes so will Ford or anyone else for that matter. Simple economics says the exact opposite. If one of the big players goes the labor market grows reducing cost, local suppliers compete harder for sales to the manufacturers who remain, they become more efficient to reduce thier own costs, cars become cheaper to make for those that hang around and access to local markets gives them a competetive advantage. Removed government handouts results in them fighting harder for sales, we end up with cheaper cars on the sales lot. Finally there is more presure to expand markets outside of oz, so parent company investment becomes more important. This all said, Holden, Ford etc will stay producing vehicles in Australia for the very reason that it restricts access to others by making establishing a manufacturing hub in Oz way too damned expensive for new entrants. Think in these terms, if BMW established a manufacturing plant in oz to better access asian markets, imagine what it would do to GM, Ford and Toyota sales. We have a stable economy, highly competent workforce etc etc etc. They must stay in Oz to block competition on a regional scale. Ford and Holden in OZ are nothing more than loss leaders to their respective parent companies. Nothing more and never will be!

[ray38l]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well we have to put up with your constant pro holden babble.

At least he has logic and reasoning in his posts on the subject.......

i don't think i have been over the top about being pro holden.
I can see another useless hypothetical poll coming along but.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Yep, every time we go to a coal mine to load the train, I look out the windows at the guys working there and think "I'm on an amazing wage, but you guys earn a lot more than me...but I wouldn't swap your job for mine, you deserve every cent you get for the dangers you face...".

Back to the imports: If the import tariff is "only" 5%, then why are a lot of imported cars worth up to twice here what they sell for overseas? Why do cars that, in Europe for example, are ordinary family cars or taxis, have to be sold here as "luxury prestige" models because of thier price? Using the 300C as an example, in the USA it starts at just under $28,000. Because of our rediculous restrictions on LHD cars, we have to get the specially built RHD version here, but surely that doesn't cover doubling the price for even the base model V6 here...

Whilst I can agree to an extent...to be logical, you would have to recognise that most of the population struggles with driving a right hand drive car, letalone add another to the mix.

How many threads regularly address driver inability and inattention, not to mention stupidity and bravado gone wrong? You think 'changing' the side the steering wheel is on is going to help how? Sure, it may be good for business, but is it really as logical as it sounds?

With most things involving peoples wants and needs (read marketing) - it's unsustainable, you can't keep handing money to a problem and hope it will 'solve' itself. Yes, manufacturing is important, I don't dispute that - but it's important to understand that Holden have overstretched themselves, something that any ordinary business would have to just 'deal with'. Lean manufacturing comes into play - I'm sure they've got all the bean counters on it, but at the end of the day - if the suits are getting paid x and the employees y and the car costs z to make, they can only operate at a loss for so long before it starts to effect the economy just that little bit more.

[GT69]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

in the 1990's they all would have been earning in excess of 150k , except your brother hed've been on around 225k

So in the 1990's people were over paid, where as now they are getting a more balanced wage? What the hell is a second year anything doing getting 225k? Why? Jeebuz, no wonder people 'expect' well beyond what they are worth! Most of these 'cant find a job' people want 100k for doing bugger all and have been taught to expect it. This attitude needs to be kicked out of the world (not just Australia).

Holden screwed themselves with Cruze, How many bloody cars a month do they have to sell before they can turn a profit? 3000 crumpledoors and 2800 daewoo cruzes and they still cant turn a profit? I'd like to see how much GM's cut in Holdens Finances are, because if they cant do things without millions of dollars in handouts, they SHOULD go bankrupt. They are a BUSINESS that sends profits OVERSEAS to their PARENT company.

[Angeldust]

well possibly on a bright side, anything with a holden or ford v8 will double in value as there will be no more. Instant classics...

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

Whilst I can agree to an extent...to be logical, you would have to recognise that most of the population struggles with driving a right hand drive car, letalone add another to the mix.

How many threads regularly address driver inability and inattention, not to mention stupidity and bravado gone wrong? You think 'changing' the side the steering wheel is on is going to help how? Sure, it may be good for business, but is it really as logical as it sounds?

With most things involving peoples wants and needs (read marketing) - it's unsustainable, you can't keep handing money to a problem and hope it will 'solve' itself. Yes, manufacturing is important, I don't dispute that - but it's important to understand that Holden have overstretched themselves, something that any ordinary business would have to just 'deal with'. Lean manufacturing comes into play - I'm sure they've got all the bean counters on it, but at the end of the day - if the suits are getting paid x and the employees y and the car costs z to make, they can only operate at a loss for so long before it starts to effect the economy just that little bit more.

Point well taken.
In Europe for example, they have always had a mix of right and left hand drive cars, and think nothing of it. Look at car shows from the UK and they show a wide variety of vehicles with the wheel on either side, not to mention the common practice of going from England over to "the continent" to save big money on a new or nearly new car. My nephew who now lives in Edinburgh, Scotland, went on a weekend trip to Germany and bought a 12 month old Renault Clio Sport in left hand drive for half the price they were selling for in England.

It'll be interesting to see what the future holds for Holden and Ford. Many times the axe has been hovering over thier neck, held by American hands, but at the last minute there's a reprieve.
Sooner or later someone won't stop the axe falling, unfortunately...

[ebxr8240]

Yer well I doubt Toyota, GM U.S is going to loan any money this time..
After all it's coming from U.S owned company..
The U.S Gov have their own problems...
Debt clock http://www.usdebtclock.org/
Like as little people we have to live on what we can "afford"...

I remember around 2000 we had a car club meeting at Power Ford NSW..
I think Geoff Polities was there to tell us of the new model coming out..
The Holden crewman was bought up and many other G.M models...
He said they WON'T make any money making them !!!
We, Ford have to be SMARTER !!!
Clever man.. Wish he was still here !!!

[Reaper8]

wife friend that works at holden said that is all over the factory their saying ford was moving to china cos its cheaper. told her to wake up, but probably would be cheaper to build there and import back

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Reaper8

wife friend that works at holden said that is all over the factory their saying ford was moving to china cos its cheaper. told her to wake up, but probably would be cheaper to build there and import back

IF they were, it would not be to build Falcons. If the Australian operations shut down, it will be because nobody is buying Territories or Falcons, so building them in another country won't fix the problem. I call that rumour BS.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ray38l

i don't think i have been over the top about being pro holden.
I can see another useless hypothetical poll coming along but.

About which I suspect you will also complain.

[gtfpv]

[QUOTE=GT69]So in the 1990's people were over paid, where as now they are getting a more balanced wage? What the hell is a second year anything doing getting 225k? Why? Jeebuz, no wonder people 'expect' well beyond what they are worth! Most of these 'cant find a job' people want 100k for doing bugger all and have been taught to expect it. This attitude needs to be kicked out of the world (not just Australia).

errrrrmmmm !!! ever heard of coal miners lung ? or what happens to those in copper mines , or how about uranium?. how about people getting paid more because thier life expectancy is greatly reduced ( another dill ) who cant see past his toes . and no people dont want 100k for doing bugger all , they want the opportunity to earn it .
anyhow off topic . but i dont want to see more manufacturing , and cars are a big one , go down, because wages are so called too high !! perhaps we should link this to the housing thread .

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

errrrrmmmm !!! ever heard of coal miners lung ? or what happens to those in copper mines , or how about uranium?. how about people getting paid more because thier life expectancy is greatly reduced ( another dill ) who cant see past his toes .
anyhow off topic . but i dont want to see more manufacturing , and cars are a big one , go down, because wages are so called too high !! perhaps we should link this to the housing thread .

I'm sorry, can't agree with you there - think of the rest of the trades and occupations that are potentially hazardous, and possibly fatal to your health...painters, mechanics, factory workers (particularly haz chem based), they don't get paid more than they're worth, in fact, they're some of the worst paid 'trades' and jobs out there...

If that was even logical, a soldier should be getting paid more than that again - the problem is 'INFLATION'...The price isn't as high as it is for danger, the price is because as Irish said, 'why should they have to pull up stumps?' - the money is an attraction, mostly because people WANT WANT WANT and WANT some more...

Bit like people buying cars, they WANT and WANT - Holden delivers even though it's not viable, Ford doesn't deliver and gets ****canned for it...

Make sense?

The cost of these 'completely un-viable' options will come back to haunt everyone. In four years my wage increased 16k...my job role didn't, but house painters have been getting paid the same wage for the last ten years...

Holden won't leave Australia, they'll get bailed out again, and again and again - all due to poor money management and undertaking more and more un-viable options. As a result, wages will have to increase so that more taxes can be taken to 'help' Holden, and then houses and the cost of living...until it all gets too much, and we end up 'up **** creek without a paddle'...

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I'm sorry, can't agree with you there - think of the rest of the trades and occupations that are potentially hazardous, and possibly fatal to your health...painters, mechanics, factory workers (particularly haz chem based), they don't get paid more than they're worth, in fact, they're some of the worst paid 'trades' and jobs out there...

If that was even logical, a soldier should be getting paid more than that again - the problem is 'INFLATION'...The price isn't as high as it is for danger, the price is because as Irish said, 'why should they have to pull up stumps?' - the money is an attraction, mostly because people WANT WANT WANT and WANT some more...

Bit like people buying cars, they WANT and WANT - Holden delivers even though it's not viable, Ford doesn't deliver and gets ****canned for it...

Make sense?

The cost of these 'completely un-viable' options will come back to haunt everyone. In four years my wage increased 16k...my job role didn't, but house painters have been getting paid the same wage for the last ten years...

Holden won't leave Australia, they'll get bailed out again, and again and again - all due to poor money management and undertaking more and more un-viable options. As a result, wages will have to increase so that more taxes can be taken to 'help' Holden, and then houses and the cost of living...until it all gets too much, and we end up 'up **** creek without a paddle'...

you make some very good points Sezzy, And i guess you are right in many senses . on the other hand though , and this is a fact , but maybe less of an argument . BIG PROFITS usually allowed better wages , i know that may not make sense , but mixed with danger etc etc . this formula worked .
a race to the bottom is a worry nowadays , and seeing australians compete with other countries that work for less , is going to have huge consequences to australians living standard .you can buy a meal in the phillipines for a few cents , not in australia though. now when huge huge profits are still to be obtained , the wealth needs to be shared accordingly otherwise we may as well all be broke . no point being rich in the dessert .
i wish somehow , i knew the answer , or was qualified and had a better understanding of how to solve insolvency , the thought of an internal currency comes to mind , where your dollar buys you enough to live on your countries abilities , and is useless outside of australia .
i believe the CHINESE have a system like this . which is smart , australia will go down if all our wealth does not come back to the masses , in the form of skills- not handouts .
i hope your right about holden being bailed out , but i have heard that australian cars will not exist in this decade . and the associated employment in all fields will be dramatic . this is why i have bought up so many points in this thread . interested in your thoughts on this post ? and others . and it is still about holden going offshore along with ford shortly after i believe.

[Express]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

...to be logical, you would have to recognise that most of the population struggles with driving a right hand drive car, letalone add another to the mix.

It never ceases to amaze me how many Aussies complain about the Euro’s sold here having the blinker stalk on the LHS of the steering collum.

I can’t imagine how they would cope if the entire steering wheel assembly was moved to the left side of the vehicle.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Express

It never ceases to amaze me how many Aussies complain about the Euro’s sold here having the blinker stalk on the LHS of the steering collum.

I can’t imagine how they would cope if the entire steering wheel assembly was moved to the left side of the vehicle.

Spoke to a LHD Mustang owner at recent carshow, he says its downright dangerous! We have RHD FOR A REASON.... You cant see oncoming cars in a LHD car if you try and over take someone and its difficult to see cars to the left of you when overtaking as well. He hates driving it long distance and rarely overtakes anyone and drives it rarely in town.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

you make some very good points Sezzy, And i guess you are right in many senses . on the other hand though , and this is a fact , but maybe less of an argument . BIG PROFITS usually allowed better wages , i know that may not make sense , but mixed with danger etc etc . this formula worked .
a race to the bottom is a worry nowadays , and seeing australians compete with other countries that work for less , is going to have huge consequences to australians living standard .you can buy a meal in the phillipines for a few cents , not in australia though. now when huge huge profits are still to be obtained , the wealth needs to be shared accordingly otherwise we may as well all be broke . no point being rich in the dessert .
i wish somehow , i knew the answer , or was qualified and had a better understanding of how to solve insolvency , the thought of an internal currency comes to mind , where your dollar buys you enough to live on your countries abilities , and is useless outside of australia .
i believe the CHINESE have a system like this . which is smart , australia will go down if all our wealth does not come back to the masses , in the form of skills- not handouts .
i hope your right about holden being bailed out , but i have heard that australian cars will not exist in this decade . and the associated employment in all fields will be dramatic . this is why i have bought up so many points in this thread . interested in your thoughts on this post ? and others . and it is still about holden going offshore along with ford shortly after i believe.

Big profits do turn big wages - I don't have a problem with that, as long as the 'big profits' are being returned into the Australian economy, and not going to offshore companies (I'm not pointing fingers, I'm simply saying - there are many that do it...)

The Phillipines are cheap by comparison to Australia, but in 1997 in Japan it was costing 8 bucks for a cup of coffee...so it's all a little confusing...

Australia has a lot of 'potential threats' at the moment. Farms and land are being bought up by the Chinese and middle eastern (?) countries, corporate farms are inflating the price of water along the Murray Darling throughout Griffith/Berri/Renmark/Barmera (or were last time I worked in Agricultural fields)...the effects of 'globalisation' are taking their toll on the true 'Australian made and owned' companies. Greed and profit have driven this globalisation, and not just the greed of big business, but the greed of the consumer.

For the most part, we all live on borrowed money (I say the most part, because there are some who refuse to live in the credit society that we currently have established here, and there should be more of them. I believe if there were, the 'true value' of money would be recognised, not just the 'corporate money' that doesn't really exist anyway - if you get my drift?)

I don't think a 'national money' is the solution to the problem. Unfortunately I think it's a change of mindset that is required by the general populace (unlikely to happen and very idealistic on my behalf ).

We complain that the price of Australian goods are too high, and the quality too low, but the Chinese have made a market in Australia making 'photocopies' of what we have already created, and the quality is very rarely on par with Australia. Due to the lag in the wages, they are able to do it at a fraction of the price, appealing to those who are budget conscious, but not supporting local economy in the process.

From reading articles over the last few years, Holden have established a cycle of over representation in the media - and this is what sells their vehicles, not the quality (IMO). The average Australian sees Holden as 'Australian' and they don't want to see an Australian car manufacturer go to the wall (perhaps Ford need to play the political game that Holden are? I'd advise against it, but...it may work in their favour, you never know).

I think One Ford have the right idea, they're making frugal financial decisions that are proving to be successful for them (at the moment).

I guess my main problem (well one of them) is this:

The 'colour' consultant that originally worked for Ford, that now works for Holden - what kind of pay rise did she get? This occurred at roughly the same time as one on one off was occurring if I recall correctly...(I could be wrong though, so don't crucify me if I'm not right).

I'm curious as to how Holden could revert to one week on one week off for their staff, and yet still be spending money elsewhere?

Holden seem to have a history of crying poor, whilst still spending money...and I for one am at a loss as to why?

They don't 'make' the Cruze here to start off, they assemble it - so as far as how they can't afford to sustain this, is beyond me. If they were pressing the metal here, and paying 'Australian wages', I could understand why it's not as viable as it should be, but the wages in Korea (?) are well below that of the Australian worker...Having had a dabble in procurement in my previous job roles, very few items that are sold in Australia, are made in Australia, they're imported, mostly due to price (once again the problem with wanting 'better value for money').

So maybe it's time to start increasing the import tariffs? (Shock horror I know, and no doubt there are some who will jump up and down, but it seems to be the only way to keep Australian companies, Australian...and Australian money in Australia). We can't have it both ways - we either support the Australian economy or we deal with the fact that our manufacturing has gone offshore. There is no 'grey area'. We can't have our cake and eat it too...it's that simple.

Australia is a tiny country in the scheme of things - and Devereaux(sp?) was right, we will just become a hole in the ground to pull stuff out of send it to China (because it's cheaper, the Australian Aluminium industry is finding this out the hard way - anti dumping didn't really go their way, as it was proven the Chinese were doing what they were supposed to be doing - well, they were with the company I worked for, despite many attempts to make them look bad).

At the end of the day, all the publicity in the world is not going to repair the poor business/financial decisions that Holden has made. They can blame the disbandment of the GCIF, but as a Queenslander seeing the destruction that happened in the Summer of 2010/11, I would say a smart person wouldn't see that as a viable excuse - his wording seemed to give an underlying message (to me anyway) 'if it wasn't for Queensland, we'd be okay...' It makes me wonder what other 'media stunts' are to follow this article?

I don't want to see manufacturer's closing down, lean manufacturing is standard practice in most businesses - it seems Holden aren't really in for 'lean' as opposed to being 'number one'.

Originally Posted by Express

It never ceases to amaze me how many Aussies complain about the Euro’s sold here having the blinker stalk on the LHS of the steering collum.

I can’t imagine how they would cope if the entire steering wheel assembly was moved to the left side of the vehicle.

I don't particularly care what side the indicator stalk is on, you get used to it.

I wasn't complaining, merely making the observation that many are unable to drive a LHD car successfully...

[cartaa100]

im not an expert on costs on egineering a car but i rekon if the aus government should help out ford and holden with things like:

tax free pay for workers.
free stamp duty and all onroad costs all new aussie made cars.
stop the carbon tax (kick labour the **** out)
im sure the taxs for car companies i say get rid of them for aussie made cars.
and provide them with bonus' for coming out with great perfomance models! and green models! (i said perfomance so where not all driving hybrids even thought they take over 32 years to be beneficial for the environment)

im sure our government can afford it and it would keep australians in jobs!

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by cartaa100

im not an expert on costs on egineering a car but i rekon if the aus government should help out ford and holden with things like:

tax free pay for workers.
free stamp duty and all onroad costs all new aussie made cars.
stop the carbon tax (kick labour the **** out)
im sure the taxs for car companies i say get rid of them for aussie made cars.
and provide them with bonus' for coming out with great perfomance models! and green models! (i said perfomance so where not all driving hybrids even thought they take over 32 years to be beneficial for the environment)

im sure our government can afford it and it would keep australians in jobs!

Look, leave the Carbon Tax out of any problem you see with the industry. It's more political spin!
If it comes in, it'll probably add a small price to the cost of the car, maybe CPI. Guess what happens if it doesn't come in, CPI increase on the car.
It's easy for these whingers to blame, nobody has all the infomation. lets wait and see.

[Express]

My earlier post was to point out the unlikelihood of LHD cars entering the Australian market.

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Spoke to a LHD Mustang owner at recent carshow, he says its downright dangerous! We have RHD FOR A REASON.... You cant see oncoming cars in a LHD car if you try and over take someone and its difficult to see cars to the left of you when overtaking as well. He hates driving it long distance and rarely overtakes anyone and drives it rarely in town.

I drove my father’s ’69 Camaro many times when he was alive and this evaluation is spot on.

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I wasn't complaining, merely making the observation that many are unable to drive a LHD car successfully...

Maybe something was lost in the translation, I was agreeing with you in a round about way.

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I don't particularly care what side the indicator stalk is on, you get used to it.

I drive both on a daily basis and never have a problem either. It’s no different to knowing where the heater, stereo and other controls are located when changing from vehicle to vehicle. Your brain automatically makes allowances for the change. I was only pointing out that many people complain about it. I get it said to me constantly.

.

[charles_wif_xf]

Originally Posted by WAForce8

Sick to death of hearing that so many assume that if Holden goes so will Ford or anyone else for that matter. Simple economics says the exact opposite. If one of the big players goes the labor market grows reducing cost, local suppliers compete harder for sales to the manufacturers who remain, they become more efficient to reduce thier own costs, cars become cheaper to make for those that hang around and access to local markets gives them a competetive advantage. Removed government handouts results in them fighting harder for sales, we end up with cheaper cars on the sales lot. Finally there is more presure to expand markets outside of oz, so parent company investment becomes more important. This all said, Holden, Ford etc will stay producing vehicles in Australia for the very reason that it restricts access to others by making establishing a manufacturing hub in Oz way too damned expensive for new entrants. Think in these terms, if BMW established a manufacturing plant in oz to better access asian markets, imagine what it would do to GM, Ford and Toyota sales. We have a stable economy, highly competent workforce etc etc etc. They must stay in Oz to block competition on a regional scale. Ford and Holden in OZ are nothing more than loss leaders to their respective parent companies. Nothing more and never will be!

You do realise that should any of the auto manufacturers shuts up shop, its effectively kills the component suppliers. And guess what, no component suppliers means no cars made in Australia. With 250,000 people out of work, no one will be able to buy these cheaper cars you speak of.

As for a stable economy... its a confidence game. Make of that what you will.

[roberts]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Look, leave the Carbon Tax out of any problem you see with the industry. It's more political spin!
If it comes in, it'll probably add a small price to the cost of the car, maybe CPI. Guess what happens if it doesn't come in, CPI increase on the car.
It's easy for these whingers to blame, nobody has all the infomation. lets wait and see.

if you have driven any demo cars lately or been to a dealer look at the sticker on the left side of the windscreen, it has the forecast fuel economy on it and allso has in kg the amount of c02 the car emits, they are only on brand new cars and are pulled off before people take delivery, but anyway I have never under stood why it was on there till all this carbon tax priced per ton speak happened. Its quite clear that this figure will be used to determine the amount of carbon the car uses and will go on to your yearly redgo charge, small car less charge, big car higher charge, performance car bendover. When the game is explained watch small car sales double. Wouldn't it be good if the government owned a car company that sold one model with the least taxes, oh didn't the Nazi's do this with beetles
OH YEAH THE SAME SORT OF STICKERS ARE ON YOUR FIDGE AND DISHWASHER AND CLOTHS DRYER in kw's, making sense.

[Joe5619]

The carbon tax is not going to be apply to regos??

[Flat Top]

kim carr is in the us at Ford and GM right now, wonder why????

[roberts]

Originally Posted by Express

It never ceases to amaze me how many Aussies complain about the Euro’s sold here having the blinker stalk on the LHS of the steering collum.

I can’t imagine how they would cope if the entire steering wheel assembly was moved to the left side of the vehicle.

like jeeps have the bonnet catch on the passenger side foot well
if you look at the dash for any new car in Australia, you can see that the whole thing can be plugged into either side, image a line running down the centre of the dash it fits perfect, the gauge pod normally looks like it fits in the passenger airbag hole, VE's where the first I noticed when I was working at holden a few years ago. The new corollas have the handbrake in the middle of the center console.

[FPVGT500]

Blame the stupid government for all this carbon tax bs, car manufacturing is just going to get worse here.

[roberts]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

The carbon tax is not going to be apply to regos??

your explanation is weak?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????
You just haven't been told yet, seriously this is why manufacturers have to tell customers this up front before they purchase a car.

[gtfpv]

excellent reading Sezzy , and great posts there after too . food for thought .

[roberts]

Originally Posted by ray38l

will you get over the fact that you cant buy a new left hand drive in Australia? Every thread about imported cars has you going on about how stupid it is that you cant drive them here. Get over it.

and 300c's are built to the standard of a $28,000 car