FYI: Tax rates going up

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Suggest you have a distorted view on this and that you are only looking at the dollars you see in your pocket in the short term.

Perhaps have a listen to Professor Hans Joachim Schellnhuber(sorry he is not as slick as Monckton) who has no apparent interest in wealth redistribution in this country and could make a comfortable living doing any number of jobs:

http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/view/799264, he is on from the 24 minute mark.




To put some things into perspective for you:

TONY MAHER: People shouldn't take this scare campaign seriously at all. The Treasury modelling shows that the coal industry will be doubled by 2050.

They are making a million per mine worker in profits, not revenue, profits. BHP made $10.6 billion for six months this year, double what it costs for repairing the Queensland floods and cyclone damage. This is not an industry that's in trouble

Fairdinkum Sudsy, are you purely on this forum to get up everyone's nose?
If 99% of the contributors on here declared the sky was blue, I'm sure you'd argue it was pink bloody polka-dots!

[GT 160]

I dont get all this talk about the immediate closure of high polluting power stations.

In the interim wouldn't the remaining stations have to double, triple etc there output to make up the shortfall untill such time as new "cleaner" stations are built ? And given that some areas already have major problems with supply in high demand times such as summer. This would have to drive prices through the roof, not too mention the 1000's of jobs and damage to the local economies.

Wouldn't it make sense to build these so called "cleaner" stations first then shutdown the older ones.

But once these newer stations are built they aren't going to be paying as much carbon tax if at all so then how does the goverment then cover all the subsidies with reduced revenue.

Trying to find logic in anything this government is doing will send a man insane.

[The Monty]

Why cant we just plant more trees?

[sudszy]

More trees can only soak up so much co2, only the amount that was initially released into the atmosphere from deforestation in the 1st place and once done wont absorb any more.

They can not continue to absorb the co2 that is released into the atmosphere from the continual of burning fossil fuels.

Its not really possible to put more trees on the planet than were there before large scale deforestation/landclearing, trees only existed in areas that would naturally support them through nutrients in teh soil and adequate water supply, ie if we could cover australia in trees, it would probably would pull atmospheric co2 right down, but simple fact is we cant plant forests in the desert.

[MAD]

Deforestation doesnt release carbon in to the atmosphere. That only happens if the trees are used for fire. When used in a house, or furniture, they are actually a carbon storage.
Deforestation reduces the planets ability to absorb CO2, but evergreen trees are the best at it, deciduous tree's rotting leaves release CO2 back in to the atmosphere every winter.

[Sam_Boss260]

I'm going to ask a really really stupiod question.... so what is the govt going to do with this extra money raised from the carbon tax? I am obviously missing something here, as I don't understand how raising all of this money is going to save the environment.

[MAD]

What money? It is used to compensate big polluters, and low income earners that have to pay more for services. And 10% is going to the UN.

[MAD]

The only thing this could possibly be doing is benefitting someone that is related to someone in the Labour Party.
Someone that is looking to make a living trading carbon credits in a couple of years.

[Sam_Boss260]

still don't get it....

[|||]

Originally Posted by Sam_Boss260

still don't get it....

products that require a large carbon output will cost more. mr & mrs moneybags are all like "oh snap looks like we better work harder cos this power bill is off the hook!" mr & mrs dole bludger are all "hell yeah tax breaks time to upgrade from horizons to winnie blues mofo"

so in conclusion i dont know either

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by MAD

Deforestation doesnt release carbon in to the atmosphere. That only happens if the trees are used for fire. When used in a house, or furniture, they are actually a carbon storage.
Deforestation reduces the planets ability to absorb CO2, but evergreen trees are the best at it, deciduous tree's rotting leaves release CO2 back in to the atmosphere every winter.

well yes it depends on what is done with the timber once it has been felled, most of australia's land that was cleared in the 1800s was simply set on fire after being clear felled.

All of the timber that goes into packaging, ie all the woodchips that the japanese turn into packaging, rots in land fill creating co2.

[SEZ213]

Here's an interesting fact...a multi million dollar business has just upped the price of their products by between 10 and 20%, freight is on the cards for 20% also...I'm not naming but given what they produce, it's a sure bet they're on THE list...

[SB076]

Originally Posted by sudszy

[B]TONY MAHER: People shouldn't take this scare campaign seriously at all. The Treasury modelling shows that the coal industry will be doubled by 2050.
]

Treasury modellng doesnt take into account the impact of rising costs through the entire suppliy chain. Add to that the PM nor Treasury can not control business, therefore they cannot control what price increases will hit the public. If as the the govnerment has stated they will gain billions of dollars from the Carbon tax, then we can expect business to pass on these costs to the general public - therefore the general public will be funding these billions of dollars.

The compensation packages the governement is offering will not cover the extra costs of living. Pensioners are to get $10 extra per week, compare that to your power/gas bills three years ago with what you pay now - that increase alone is more $10 per week. Now add to that increases in everything else (food, transport etc) and they will be worse off

One other point the carbon tax starts at $23 per tonne - from there it will go up.

[Trevor 57]

This was in today's local paper, it was so true that I just had to post it here -

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Sam_Boss260

still don't get it....

In short...

1. 500 companies are going to be forced to pay more tax;
2. 500 companies are going to put their prices up to protect profits;
3. Most of the money that is collected in tax will be given to low income earners to give back to the company to support their higher prices;
4. Some of the money will go into "green initiatives";
5. All of the money is currently yours and mine. None of it will be this time next year;
6. All of the money will find its way either back into profits or taxes;
7. Anyone on more than $80k/pa will be topping up the toxic merry-go-round out of their par packet to offset the money that gets spent along the way.

How this solves Global Warming Global Cooling Climate Change, is beyond me.

What it does do is:

1. Pull money out of our families mouths;
2. Create an unfair market (why should companies in the same industry, using the same practices be charged or not depending in their throughput??);
3. Create more cash flow;
4. Put some more money into developing "greener" methods (though they will likely not be financially viable to implement without global adoption/adaptation);
5. Create a gutload more taxes, which is ultimately ALL this joke does.

[Work Horse]

Why doesn't the government introduce a popular tax!??

[Sam_Boss260]

Originally Posted by Scott

In short...

1. 500 companies are going to be forced to pay more tax;
2. 500 companies are going to put their prices up to protect profits;
3. Most of the money that is collected in tax will be given to low income earners to give back to the company to support their higher prices;
4. Some of the money will go into "green initiatives";
5. All of the money is currently yours and mine. None of it will be this time next year;
6. All of the money will find its way either back into profits or taxes;
7. Anyone on more than $80k/pa will be topping up the toxic merry-go-round out of their par packet to offset the money that gets spent along the way.

How this solves Global Warming Global Cooling Climate Change, is beyond me.

What it does do is:

1. Pull money out of our families mouths;
2. Create an unfair market (why should companies in the same industry, using the same practices be charged or not depending in their throughput??);
3. Create more cash flow;
4. Put some more money into developing "greener" methods (though they will likely not be financially viable to implement without global adoption/adaptation);
5. Create a gutload more taxes, which is ultimately ALL this joke does.

Thanks Scott. And that still doesn't answer the question.... we the public are funding this tax, that appears to simply be a mery go round that is not really being raised to pay for anything? So if they do not intrduce it we woukld surely be better off?

Sounds like the Giovt is trying to gather some cash to get themselves out of the ***** that they are in financially.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Sam_Boss260

Sounds like the Giovt is trying to gather some cash to get themselves out of the ***** that they are in financially.

Ed Zachary.

[MAD]

Yeah, but the ones that will make the money will be the companies that are slugged with the tax. Company A's product cost is increased by $5 a unit due to carbon tax, so they increase the sale price by $6 to cover it and a little more. Government gives Company A up to 66% rebate for the increased cost of producing the item. Company A's actual cost increase is $1.70. So their profit increases by $4.30 not the $1 it looks like on paper. On top of that they dont need to worry about competition because Joe Blow is given $4 to help pay for the increase.
Joe Blow is out of pocket $2, and Company A is in front by $4.30.

And in the end the Gov will not make any money from this, and at a later date we will be forced to pay another "one off" tax to rebuild the country.

[Geez Louise]

I am over the whole carbon tax thing...I think I will console myself and go outside and REV my carbon polluting V8 until I feel better! If I am going to pay for carbon...I may as well produce some more to get my monies worth!

[Sam_Boss260]

Originally Posted by Geez Louise

I am over the whole carbon tax thing...I think I will console myself and go outside and REV my carbon polluting V8 until I feel better! If I am going to pay for carbon...I may as well produce some more to get my monies worth!

AMEN brother !! .... I mean sister!

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Geez Louise

I am over the whole carbon tax thing...I think I will console myself and go outside and REV my carbon polluting V8 until I feel better! If I am going to pay for carbon...I may as well produce some more to get my monies worth!

I agree. If I'm paying for it, I might as well enjoy it. I think I might get a fireplace installed at home. That way I can produce more carbon 'pollution' when travelling to the bush to collect wood, more from the chainsaw to cut the wood, and more from burning the wood. It will probabaly be cheaper than paying the increasing prices for gas and electricity.

While I'm in the process of moving backwards in time, maybe a wood oven and hot water service might be nice too...

[MAD]

An update to the question of how can we tell which companies are gouging us if we dont have access to 'the list'.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-1...-rorts/2793160

ACCC flying squad to combat carbon rorts
Jeremy Thompson

A new 20-person ACCC flying squad will be given the power to track down and punish companies which try to rort the carbon tax, the Government has announced.

The $12.8 million Australian Consumer and Competition Commission team will be tasked with dealing with false and misleading claims and price rises that businesses blame on the new tax.

Since January tougher national consumer laws have been in force and used to impose hefty penalties, such as a fine of more than $5 million awarded against Optus for misleading advertising.

The laws specify fines of up to $1.1 million per contravention, and the ACCC will use them to prosecute carbon price rorters.

ACCC deputy chair Peter Kell says they have already imposed a series of multi-million-dollar penalties for giving consumers misleading information.

"Those are significant amounts," he told a press conference in Melbourne.

"Those are genuine deterrents to misconduct in the market."

Treasurer Wayne Swan says the consumer laws are the "toughest Australia has had for 100 years".

"I believe the vast majority of business will do the right thing, but for those businesses that don't do the right thing they will feel the full force of the law and heavy fines," he told reporters.

Mr Swan says the ACCC "will be as active as possible" when the carbon price is introduced on July 1 next year.

"The ACCC will be the cop on the beat out there to ensure that those that meet these false claims are dealt with and dealt with with the full force of the law."

Competition Policy parliamentary secretary David Bradbury urged consumers to dob in businesses that increase prices as a result of the carbon price.

"We've allocated $12.8 million over four years to the ACCC and will establish a dedicated team of more than 20 staff," he said.

"Their activities will be directed towards enforcement and education of businesses and consumers."

Mr Swan says the prices passed on as a result of the carbon price should be very small.

He says the carbon price will impact on the inflation rate by 0.7 per cent when the scheme is introduced.

"It is a price that applies to the 500 largest polluters," Mr Swan said.

"It is not a tax on households as is claimed by many but it will have a small price impact in the supply chain and that is why we have put in place assistance for households to ensure they can meet those price impacts."

Opposition Leader Tony Abbott says it is "interesting" the government has launched a new package to crack down on misleading and deceptive conduct.

"The most misleading and deceptive conduct has been by the Prime Minister herself," he said.

"The Prime Minister herself was misleading and deceptive before the election and the deception continues."

He says the carbon price was supposed to be revenue-neutral but "it's not" and a "$4 billion black hole" will be in the budget.

"Every day the deception deepens."

Still doesnt inform us how the ACCC are supposed to be notified of any such doings.

[prydey]

the idea that putting a tax on something will encourage people to use less of it is a joke to start with.

most of us use what we do, because we have to. its called living. the ability to live 'well' is getting harder by the day.

if you try to do the right thing by you and your family and put your head down and bum up and earn some decent coin, then the govt just keeps putting its hand out for more and more.

i think this govt has forgotten that its the people (well, not in this case) that put them there, and its the people that kick them out (very likely in this case).

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by MAD

An update to the question of how can we tell which companies are gouging us if we dont have access to 'the list'.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-1...-rorts/2793160



Still doesnt inform us how the ACCC are supposed to be notified of any such doings.

The $12.8 million Australian Consumer and Competition Commission team will be tasked with dealing with false and misleading claims and price rises that businesses blame on the new tax.

That's golden...yet another tax payer funded 'task force' is being implemented...although with the feral 500 list being 'secret', there is absolutely no way of knowing who is trying to rip us off and who isn't...

[Wise]

After looking over my pay slip I'm 4 dorrar worse off a week. So I'm paying 200 dorrar a week more than last financial year.

I'm totally fine if that 200 was solely going to qld flood related stuff, but its not. I want my money back already so I can redirect it elsewhere and make use of it instead of this crap its going in to now

[gtfpv]

still a very interesting thread , and i'm bewildered at all the new info coming out .
now the reasoning argument of why ? is the baffling question here .
i say WHY DIDNT they just raise the gst to 12% , or just raise income taxes ?
instead they chose a very hard sell , to create revenue as many of you put it ???

[Sam_Boss260]

I agree, raising the GST to 11% or 12% would make more sense. You pay extra tax as in you incur extra spending. At the govt simply takes the extra % into their coffa's. But this just doesn't make sense. Once again, we be being taxed (either directly or indirectly) for what?

[cheap]

Changing the GST (raising or lowering it) requires agreement of all the States (and probably Territories too)

Given the terrible relationship Rudd/Julia have built with the WA, VIC and NSW governments, there would no chance of having the GST changed.

Therefore Julia's had to resort to Plan B: there will be no carbon tax with my government....

At least she is consistent with relationships, her relationship with the Australian people seems to be as poor as it is with the State Governments.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

still a very interesting thread , and i'm bewildered at all the new info coming out .
now the reasoning argument of why ? is the baffling question here .
i say WHY DIDNT they just raise the gst to 12% , or just raise income taxes ?
instead they chose a very hard sell , to create revenue as many of you put it ???

See my earlier post.
No doubt someone related to someone from within the Labour Party will be a beneficiary of the potential money to be made by carbon trading when it comes in to play. Far enough down the track that no one will think it was a planned initiative.