Should drivers over 70 hand in their keys ? - Page 4

castellan · 08-09-2014, 10:42 PM

Maybe some of it has to do with people who have no interest in cars at all they just see it as a means of trans port, they just get behind the wheel and are oblivious to all around them.

How many idiots I have come across who talk and gin around and have very little concentration at the task at hand.

Just last week a old dude I was in the car with was talking and paying bugger all attention at all but plodding about 40 km to 55km in a 70km he did not care at all as he thinks he is not speeding so he is fine, he has all day to just bugger around. I just put up with it, but I could of said shut up and watch the road, pay more attention instead of just buggering around in ignorance, it's a bloody road, not a sheep station for crying out loud.

I have had people of all ages do like such.

Bad habits lead to more bad habits.

People who drive through stop signs with no regard that really gets on my goat, and If I said do you know you just drove through a stop sign ? and they say, did I, with no real regard, that's it ! they should be off the road directly.

Rolling through a stop sign is one thing but not slowing down at all is much much more serious. even drag racing on the street could possibly maybe be better than that because if they are not running stop signs or lights at least they could be in charge of the situation. but the hairy fairy is off with the pixies no.

Franco Cozzo · 08-09-2014, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castellan

Rolling through a stop sign is one thing but not slowing down at all is much much more serious. even drag racing on the street could possibly maybe be better than that because if they are not running stop signs or lights at least they could be in charge of the situation. but the hairy fairy is off with the pixies no.

Earlier this year when I left work, I caught up with my ex apprentice outside of work and thought I'd let him drive me about so he could get some more practise legally and we'd go somewhere away from the lit up concrete jungle of outer Melbourne. He wanted me to take him out so why not, we could go to the pub for dinner too, win.

I directed him out to Gisborne from Tullamarine and made him cross Cherokee (which is one of the mountains next to Mt Macedon) which is all tree lined dirt roads and a steep climb, no lighting and animal central.

I took him out there at around 7pm so it was dark and I was hoping we'd see some roos and wombats, to scare the **** out of him.

Anyways he wasn't very confident so he was doing about 30km/h on the dirt roads, fair enough I won't rush him along.

Then at one stage he started doing 50, no worries.

I seen we were coming up to a T instersection on the dirt roads, tree lined sides with a stop sign, and he didn't slow down, and I'm yelling STOP!!!

He goes through at about 50km/h and at the last second reefs the wheel to the left when the trees in front of us just come into view of his headlights and we avoid going head on into the trees by a bees dick.

He tells me, I saw the stop sign but didn't know the intersection was there....

After that he did alright though.

**tut0r** · 08-09-2014, 11:55 PM

I was talking to my friend today about 5 year testing for your license and he to liked the idea, but he said to me he probably wouldn't pass. I asked why, which brought him to tell me an interesting answer, "on your driving test you practice and practice to pass, only to find once you start driving you will be driving totally different". I completely agreed with what he said when I think about my test, it wasn't so much about this test is going to make me a better driver it was a thing of, I want to pass this 'stupid' test so I can get my license.

I should of technically failed because when coming to stop at some lights I went over the big white line due to the lights changing yellow as I was approaching was so nervous I didn't make my mind up whether to go through or stop....I ended up stopping without slamming the brakes on but rolled into the pedestrian crossing...You know what I did? I swore every word I could think of, turned to the tester, apologised and proceeded to back the car up slightly as no one was behind me to where I was supposed to be.

Suffice to say by that point I thought I had failed and couldn't give two ***** about the rest of the test....I passed, why? Was it because I corrected my mistake? The tester was in a good mood? It was always drummed in my head you go over that line in your test, automatic fail....

So in short that whole test wasn't me paying attention to the road as such, more just trying to pass the test, I went straight back to driving with one hand on the wheel one on the shifter(manual), to smoking while driving, having a coffee and smoking while driving and god knows how many other bad habits....Yet to this day I have no had an accident or caused one, but could I pass my test again?

Probably not.

2011G6E · 09-09-2014, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castellan

Just last week a old dude I was in the car with was talking and paying bugger all attention at all but plodding about 40 km to 55km in a 70km he did not care at all as he thinks he is not speeding so he is fine,

And therein lies the crux of the entire road safety philosophy at the moment..."Don't speed and you'll never have an accident".
People have been brainwashed to believe that all they have to do is stay at or below whatever number on their speedo matches the road signs, and that's the end of their involvement in road safety...they aren't going "one K over" so they don't have to worry about accidents. They won't happen. They only happen to those nasty speeders.

Until we get people to take driving seriously...people of all ages...nothing will change.

mik · 09-09-2014, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

I cant believe this is still going .

You cant just take away some ones licence due to age.

Mandatory on road testing every few years supported by a certificate of fitness is the only fair solution.

I think putting it solely in the hands of a GP is ridiculous too as they have a vested interest in keeping their patient happy...

This could be quite a growth industry.

it might seem like that, but if doc gives the all clear and then harry suburban goes out and kills himself or someone else ....... doc will be in the doo doo.

Yellow_Festiva · 09-09-2014, 07:06 AM

My dad is 71, my FIL is 72.

I have asked to borrow the keys to dads ute a few times and he warns me that the steering is real poor, the car drifts all over the road, above 90 it has the shakes and the headlights are real poor - so poor that you can hardly see anything at night.

I hop in and all is fine. The problem is, my dad is too proud to let go and admit that his senses and reflexes are not what they used to be. He badly needs to wear glasses but refuses because 'real men don't wear glasses' and proudly boasts that he has never had an accident even though it is probably the grace of others around him and God that helped him out. He doesn't bother indicating any more - he hardly did it in the past anyway but now I just think he forgets. I cringe every time I'm driving with him yet he won't have a bar of any conversation about how his driving is getting worse.

my FIL is much better, but his peripheral vision is shot - he will drive straight through a 2 lane round about and not respect the indicated lanes. He drives much better than my dad but only because he was a much better road user his whole life. Myself and my wife are thankful that he drives a new Beemer as it would look after the occupants in an accident.

I actually do want older drivers to have to do a test - both theory and practical every 2-3 years and test stuff like vision and reflex times - as well as the road rules that have changed or been updated in the past decade.

It would be great for my dad to hear it from someone else that his diminished health is effecting his driving. When we try and tell him we are 'attacking' him.

2011G6E · 09-09-2014, 07:56 AM

The sad part is that there are three problems: Older drivers who honestly do not realise how bad their driving has become, and a public that doesn't want to be seen to be "disciminating" against older drivers by imposing harsher rules on them or "taking away their freedom" by restricting heavily their "right to drive"...combine this with governments who don't want to be seen to be making life "difficult" for their voters or to be "targeting" the elderly, and we have a problems.

To which I say, bull-puckey. Driving is not a "right"...never has been, never will, as much as some people seem to think it is. It's a skill, a learned skill, that demands ongoing concentration and thought and care and attention.
It's not some god given right that as many people as possible must be allowed to have at all costs from one end of your life to the other...at one end with easy driving tests to get your licence in the first place, and at the other by doing everything in our power to keep as many elderly people as possible on the road, to the vast swath in between where bad and inattentive drivers are pushed under the carpet and ignored in our quest to hammer people who stray a kilometer or two over the limit.

As I said, it should be hard...hard and expensive and a long process...to get your licence in the first place. In Finland it takes three years to get your licence, and they produce some of the best and most skilled drivers at a young age in the world. Driving is a dangerous and potentially deadly thing to do, yet we treat it as if it's a contest to get as many drivers as possible spat through the system each year and out onto the roads after a short learners period, a fudged logbook, and a short cursory driving test on a nice sunny day.

Start the learner process at 15 like some other modern countries do...Provisional at 17, then no open licence until further testing shows you're worthy of an open licence at, say, 19 or 20. Retest skills every five years, and when you get to a certain age, doctors exams and retesting every two years, including reaction tests and strict eyesight tests for all ages.

And yes, sadly, that leans an awful lot of people are going to have to take a reality check and realise that they simply should not be driving a vehicle, full stop. Sorry. That's life...It's full of disappointment ain't it?

Imagine the outcry and demand for strong action if we applied the same "standards" to airline pilots as we did to car drivers..."Oh, so old Joe Bloggs's eyesight is failing a bit and his reactions aren't near as good as they used to be...but the poor old guy loves the freedom to be up there amongst the clouds and to get out of the house. So what if he has to wobble to the plane on a walker and takes five minutes to clamber into the drivers seat before slowly making his way out onto the runway...he's contributed to society over the years so we can't be too harsh on him..."
Would you get in a plane again if you knew that a pilot took one test at the start of his career...and that was it then, he was just let go on his merry way with no further testing until he reached old age? Nope.

The old cliche is right...it's a privilege, not a right...and you should have to prove, and keep on proving through your life, that you're entitled to it.

Franco Cozzo · 09-09-2014, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

my FIL is much better, but his peripheral vision is shot - he will drive straight through a 2 lane round about and not respect the indicated lanes.

I do that when there is no one next to me

steve.zissou · 09-09-2014, 12:46 PM

all drivers should be tested (practical every 10 years (5 years for 30 and under and 1 year 70 and over).

now thats govt revenue raising i could live with

mik · 09-09-2014, 01:48 PM

Testing on its own is no good, it needs to have a bit of a refresher course......... not like going for your licence again, but to just make sure driver x still remembers the road rules and any new road rules and a medical goes without saying.

TheSneakiness · 09-09-2014, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tut0r

I should of technically failed because when coming to stop at some lights I went over the big white line due to the lights changing yellow as I was approaching was so nervous I didn't make my mind up whether to go through or stop....I ended up stopping without slamming the brakes on but rolled into the pedestrian crossing...You know what I did? I swore every word I could think of, turned to the tester, apologised and proceeded to back the car up slightly as no one was behind me to where I was supposed to be.

Suffice to say by that point I thought I had failed and couldn't give two ***** about the rest of the test....I passed, why? Was it because I corrected my mistake? The tester was in a good mood? It was always drummed in my head you go over that line in your test, automatic fail....

Similar situation to me except it was for doing 65km/h in a 60km/h zone. I rode the brake to slow the car up so it wasn't as noticeable. Passed.

As for on topic, I wouldn't say hand in their keys, I would say bi-yearly retests for their licence, for sure. It's covered in our sensationalist media everyday about older drivers having accidents because of various things.

ford71V8 · 09-09-2014, 02:43 PM

I'm sure I've only recently read here in Adelaide that the govt want to remove the medical testing for elderly drivers and let them decide when its time for these checks? Had a quick google but didn't find anything - can anyone confirm reading a recent article relating to this?

noflac52 · 09-09-2014, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

Similar situation to me except it was for doing 65km/h in a 60km/h zone. I rode the brake to slow the car up so it wasn't as noticeable. Passed.

As for on topic, I wouldn't say hand in their keys, I would say bi-yearly retests for their licence, for sure. It's covered in our sensationalist media everyday about older drivers having accidents because of various things.

Its all right to pass a judgment on some one else but to do it out of hand without good reason doesn't give it much credibility.

A couple of questions.

Are you passing judgment because the media report it or because there is some factual basis that you draw on to support your opinion ?

You haven't mentioned how often you consider is fair for yourself to be tested regularly. So how often do you think is fair for you to be tested for your skill levels and why?

2011G6E · 09-09-2014, 05:45 PM

"Why" is an easy one.

* Bad habits.
* Poor driver training in the first place which is never again addressed with retesting at any time in your driving life.
* People become complacent and start to do a task "on automatic"...it's just natural but when you're controlling a car it certainly can't be glossed over.
* Changing rules/road environment which is also never addressed properly as years go by.
* You could even throw in vehicles changing over the years. Put the foot down in a family car of twenty or thirty years ago and it will accelerate nicely. Do that with a modern...usually automatic...modern "family car" and it will plant you back in the seat like a muscle car of days of old. Chuck in an older (or just a poor) driver and we must have all seen the news items about how "I just touched the accelerator" (accidentally floored it more likely) brings trouble of a sometimes tragic kind.

There's a hundred reasons everyone should have a hell of a hard time getting a licence in the first place and then having an even tougher time over the years with testing and retesting every few years. As I said, we train drivers do it and we don't have to worry about steering or oncoming traffic.

Driving is seen as a simple task that anyone can do. Nope...nope it's not. Some people simply have to be gently told "Sorry, but this isn't for you".

But they won't be...and that's the problem...

TheSneakiness · 10-09-2014, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noflac52

Its all right to pass a judgment on some one else but to do it out of hand without good reason doesn't give it much credibility.

A couple of questions.

Are you passing judgment because the media report it or because there is some factual basis that you draw on to support your opinion ?

You haven't mentioned how often you consider is fair for yourself to be tested regularly. So how often do you think is fair for you to be tested for your skill levels and why?

1. Being involved in day to day traffic watching these people go about their driving and wondering why they do some of the things they do. Also looking on the RACQ bookface page and reading in absolute astonishment of people who have no idea about the road rules. Suppose you cannot generalise on age however it does seem when the rules get changed the older generations do not pick up on it.

2. I think then in essence everyone should go through a retest when their licence is up for renewal. Alot of people on the roads don't know what to do when coming to a roundabout and more people than have have no idea how to merge into traffic.

3. In saying this again everyone who comes in from overseas should not be allowed to drive on their native licence. Who says the rules are the same between China and Australia, or Ukraine and Australia. They should be made to at least take a brief driving test and a theory test to determine if they are safe on our roads. If not too bad, find other ways to get around.

LTDHO · 10-09-2014, 08:04 AM

Most people don't know 95% of the road rules!
Who has actually read the rule book? (not the small one to get your licence)
I have, it's a big book! Worth the read.

Focusfan · 10-09-2014, 08:48 AM

Yes and no. Medical tests should be compulsory over 80.
If healthy and reflexes still good yes.
If health problems like heart or stroke history and poor reflex time NO.
Medicals should be every 12 months and doctors should be non personal
in their report on this.

**GasoLane** · 10-09-2014, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

In saying this again everyone who comes in from overseas should not be allowed to drive on their native licence. Who says the rules are the same between China and Australia, or Ukraine and Australia. They should be made to at least take a brief driving test and a theory test to determine if they are safe on our roads. If not too bad, find other ways to get around.

But if this worked both ways we would not be allowed to drive in other countries, and unfortunately in some places here there are no other ways to get around.

noflac52 · 10-09-2014, 10:45 AM

The problem with this idea of handing a licence in at a particular age is that most people only know what our media outlets report on.

How often do you hear about an elderly person hitting a building in a car park or other area from the media and statements are made that they got the accelerator pedal mixed up with the brake. There is never any follow up from the media making a statement to the actual cause of the accident, so how do we know how many of these accidents are the cause of confusion in the elderly or just media after another story creating the concept that its true when it actually isn't?

Only last night there was a news item about an elderly driver hitting a unit in a retirement village and the woman who owned the unit stated that he got the accelerator mixed up with the brake that can be the only explanation. The media left it at that because it suited their story line not because it had anything to do with any facts. The media then mentioned the age of the driver right at the end of the segment as being 64.

So after giving the impression throughout that it was an elderly driver 64 is mentioned. The problem arises that everyone now remembers that it was another elderly driver but in fact it was a much younger driver that caused the accident and there is no mention of what actually caused it.

So how many of these accidents on a national annual basis actually end up in tragedy. Realistically probably not many at all!

Now I'd like to compare it to the national suicide rate which runs at 7 people per day according to a report I heard just this morning and ask the question; how big a deal is it that elderly drivers crash occasionally for whatever reason when this comparison is made?

Shouldn't our focus be on this much larger epidemic in our society that is killing us and what might be done to reduce this rate of suicide??

The media will build a subject until it becomes a major talking point and that is what I think has happened with older drivers. It doesn't mean that there is much substance to it!

mik · 10-09-2014, 02:05 PM

noflac52 , all fair points, but a medical every 5 or 10 years for a driver and competency test should not be such a big deal, perhaps a bit more often for the 70 + and onward,
and in the scheme of things if you find out you might have a problem and can rectify it, its a win.
my bet is there are a lot of people out on the road that perhaps should not be driving for reasons other than old age.

Trevor 57 · 10-09-2014, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTDHO

Most people don't know 95% of the road rules!
Who has actually read the rule book? (not the small one to get your licence)
I have, it's a big book! Worth the read.

all the time, what would you like to know -

(by the way, there is more to being a good driver than knowing the road law)

Itsme · 10-09-2014, 05:51 PM

A few old people get media attention for accidents & every one assumes all oldies should hand in their keys, maybe they should if proven beyond doubt if their faculties have diminished.
I've seen a lot younger drivers on the road that are not worthy of keeping their licences so to put things in prospective reason all licence holders should be subjected to some form of retesting/medical examinations to determine who is fit to drive on our roads.
This stops all type of discrimination.

LoudPipes · 10-09-2014, 06:32 PM

I don’t believe we should be falling into the trap of thinking all old people lose their mental capacity as they don’t.

Definitely their reflexes, eye sight, hearing, strength and the like will deteriorate at differing rates and to differing effect with age but not necessarily their ability to think, some do, some don’t.

Many people are as sharp as a tack in their nineties and I could without any thought offer up the names of half a dozen of my friends in their seventies and eighties that would give most people a run for their money when it came to knowledge or even quiz questions on a wide range of subjects and not only would they most likely outperform most, they would do it with astonishing speed of recall.

I know many people who have made their own decision not to drive or give away night driving.
Driving offers freedom but as we get older we are also aware of our own mortality and most of us don’t want to kill ourselves or anyone else for that matter.
Of cause there will always be some who don’t get it and continue on to become a danger and for this reason and to offer a safe guard, I definitely see no problem with the elderly being tested for their ability to drive.
I see the Doctor Patience scenario as a good option, if the doctor says no, then no it is.

As far as re testing in car, if they do the elderly then they should be fair and do everyone but that would be a logistical nightmare and I’d hate to be the political party that tries to bring it into being.

noflac52 · 10-09-2014, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mik

noflac52 , all fair points, but a medical every 5 or 10 years for a driver and competency test should not be such a big deal, perhaps a bit more often for the 70 + and onward,
and in the scheme of things if you find out you might have a problem and can rectify it, its a win.
my bet is there are a lot of people out on the road that perhaps should not be driving for reasons other than old age.

I can't agree with you more on those points. Retesting and rectification, that will get to the real problems we face!

Here's a hypothetical for the younger drivers who are responding to the thread.

When I started my career the average age for retired persons in my field to die was 66 so no need to hand in a licence due to age.

I'm retired now and the average age has gone up to late seventies or older for retirees in my field due to vast improvements in personal safety and equipment along with many medical breakthroughs.

So with the same rate of progress in medicine etc you may have the good fortune to live well over a hundred years with some luck.

We now have a situation where you are faced with not being able to drive for the last thirty to forty years of your life due to some arbitrary decision made back in 2014 because of public pressure. A decision not made on facts and each individuals abilities.

Would you be happy, as car enthusiasts, to live with this?

castellan · 10-09-2014, 09:45 PM

When I up graded my truck licence I seen a Asian dude doing the eye test their they have, he said witch way up or down or from what way, they turned on the light that's in side of it and made him read a line that I could see even the one under it from where I was standing with out the light on.
If this is the rubbish vision testing that's used, it's a said joke I would say and down right pathetic.

If you can't control a car in a slide if it did say get out of control you should not be on the road I would think. as that's just ignorance in my book.

If you drive a hopeless pile of junk with no regard to tyres or shocks and don't maintain it with in reason mechanic order you should not be on the road, it's a death trap driven by a dunce with no regard for others.

b0son · 11-09-2014, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castellan

If this is the rubbish vision testing that's used, it's a said joke I would say and down right pathetic.

reminds me of this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7DcrVIdaSk

Focusfan · 11-09-2014, 07:54 AM

We all have a say in driver quality due to age young or old being the basic cause of driver deaths.
Funny how over the years we overlook some other very important issues in driver deaths on the road.
One is bad roads causing cars to leave the road, big pot holes, damaged bitumen surface that goes unrepaired for months.
Then the cars themselves. All Aussie made cars are made to collapse in an accident to remove stress to the body.
All good to a point then the collapsed panels crush the human into the back seat or sideways to the passenger side.
Euro models have a lot more strength in the cabin frame than any car made here, no mater what year model.
Mercedes for example had the engine travel downwards in a major hit.
Aussie cars still go straight back into the cabin.
Euro models use ultra high strength a and b pillars. Aussie uses standard high strength steel. Maybe Europeans are worth more than Aussies so they do not really give a dam. 90% of elderly driver only
travel locally in their cars so are not much of a threat on the roads.
High speed suburban hoons are the bigger threat and trucks as well. How many trucks have you seen run red lights. Let me bet a lot
more than elderly drivers.

**Falcon Coupe** · 11-09-2014, 09:16 AM

So because we face a "bigger threat" we should sweep other issues under the carpet and pay them no mind?

This IS an issue and one worth discussing, many good points have been raised in this thread.
Feel free to start another thread regarding the many off topic issues you stated.

monzie · 11-09-2014, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Focusfan

High speed suburban hoons are the bigger threat and trucks as well. How many trucks have you seen run red lights. Let me bet a lot
more than elderly drivers.

Here we go again, another truck bashing thread.

Trevor 57 · 11-09-2014, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Focusfan

We all have a say in driver quality due to age young or old being the basic cause of driver deaths.
Funny how over the years we overlook some other very important issues in driver deaths on the road.
One is bad roads causing cars to leave the road, big pot holes, damaged bitumen surface that goes unrepaired for months.
Then the cars themselves. All Aussie made cars are made to collapse in an accident to remove stress to the body.
All good to a point then the collapsed panels crush the human into the back seat or sideways to the passenger side.
Euro models have a lot more strength in the cabin frame than any car made here, no mater what year model.
Mercedes for example had the engine travel downwards in a major hit.
Aussie cars still go straight back into the cabin.
Euro models use ultra high strength a and b pillars. Aussie uses standard high strength steel. Maybe Europeans are worth more than Aussies so they do not really give a dam. 90% of elderly driver only
travel locally in their cars so are not much of a threat on the roads.
High speed suburban hoons are the bigger threat and trucks as well. How many trucks have you seen run red lights. Let me bet a lot
more than elderly drivers.

Aussie built Falcons are ANCAP 5, what do you say to that?