Vfacts February 2020

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Yeah it’s about 12k extra for phev. Rav4 is 2k. The phev is miles better, uses half the fuel, but buyers will just look at cost and avoid it. Which is a shame cause it’s vastly superior. 1.9 litres per 100 versus 4.6 for the rav 4 hybrid.

That's absolutely great Boss. (Offering the PHEV and it's stats, that is)

[Sprintey]

Toyota's hybrid strategy has been really well thought out. They must have worked out the most realistic, practical drivetrain to reduce emissions pretty early on, and then just stuck with it. They probably invested in Prius at a loss for some while; now they are trying this approach with the Mirai and hydrogen.

You see the battery tech might be older - but it's cheaper and more accessible with the Nickel based batteries. Is it more intert? Maybe they were waiting for lithium to get to a certain cost/safety level - I note the coming Yaris hybrid will have lithium batteries.

In doing so, they've avoided the publicity of fires that some of the other lithium batteries have provided.

A short range - about 2km electric and focus on the Atkinson cycle engines has paid off. This also has meant lower battery replacement costs so those 32K quotes like with that Leaf don't stun owners.

Sending the driveline to all mainstream models as a policy has been a masterstroke, and Joe Public gets to see real savings comparable to the 1.5 to 2K additional price. It's now taking off.

As for Prius, I'm surprised Toyota hasn't yet made it full electric or PHEV to maintain the flagship fuel miser/environment saver status it had. Maybe the tech isn't yet mature enough? Maybe they don't need the model anymore?

Hybrid 300 Landcruiser will be interesting.

[ozpacman]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Will take a few years for a change of strategy to flow through. And change really needs to be customer driven. Start giving them hybrid, plug in, ev options and wait to see how the customers react. No point ditching diesels if customers keep buying them. In the end it’s the customer who decides what powertrain they need.

Great point Boss. It's definitely a case of horses for courses.

I seems to have become popular to criticise people's choice of purchasing diesel powered vehicles, although I have no idea why. If you want to regularly move or tow heavy loads then they're the only sensible option.

I don't care how high-tech your new petrol engine is, diesel still rules in that department and always has. Dr Smith's recent experience with the new V6 petrol Hiace van is a case in point.

Get out into the regional areas and you can pretty much back it in that any vehicle that is worked hard will be a diesel. All the vehicles (aside from motorcycles) at our place are diesels - we just love 'em!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by ozpacman

Great point Boss. It's definitely a case of horses for courses.

I seems to have become popular to criticise people's choice of purchasing diesel powered vehicles, although I have no idea why. If you want to regularly move or tow heavy loads then they're the only sensible option.

I don't care how high-tech your new petrol engine is, diesel still rules in that department and always has. Dr Smith's recent experience with the new V6 petrol Hiace van is a case in point.

Get out into the regional areas and you can pretty much back it in that any vehicle that is worked hard will be a diesel. All the vehicles (aside from motorcycles) at our place are diesels - we just love 'em!

Just to clarify, Boss's response, Ford isn't offering a diesel or hybrid in the new Escape,
just 2.0 EB and top of the line PHEV........

It would be nice if they offered either an efficient diesel or a 2.5 hybrid,
they're offering neither at the moment.

As for V6 petrol vans, they're useless and should also serve as example as to why
the V6 petrol Hilux and Prado just won't sell in this country, people know that the
diesel roughly halves fuel use..... But, add a hybrid side for stop/go city running
and the petrol vehicles come back into focus....

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Just to clarify, Boss's response, Ford isn't offering a diesel or hybrid in the new Escape,

just 2.0 EB and top of the line PHEV........



It would be nice if they offered either an efficient diesel or a 2.5 hybrid,

they're offering neither at the moment.



As for V6 petrol vans, they're useless and should also serve as example as to why

the V6 petrol Hilux and Prado just won't sell in this country, people know that the

diesel roughly halves fuel use..... But, add a hybrid side for stop/go city running

and the petrol vehicles come back into focus....

Be interesting to see a cost over life of vehicle comparison.
Petrol costs more to use (a lot more) but diesel costs a lot more to repair when it fails...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

Be interesting to see a cost over life of vehicle comparison.
Petrol costs more to use (a lot more) but diesel costs a lot more to repair when it fails...

When you got a lot of stop and go, the hybrid is just as efficient as a diesel but,
for constant speed running on the highway with a load, diesel is heads and shoulders better.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Toyota's hybrid strategy has been really well thought out. They must have worked out the most realistic, practical drivetrain to reduce emissions pretty early on, and then just stuck with it. They probably invested in Prius at a loss for some while; now they are trying this approach with the Mirai and hydrogen.

You see the battery tech might be older - but it's cheaper and more accessible with the Nickel based batteries. Is it more intert? Maybe they were waiting for lithium to get to a certain cost/safety level - I note the coming Yaris hybrid will have lithium batteries.

In doing so, they've avoided the publicity of fires that some of the other lithium batteries have provided.

A short range - about 2km electric and focus on the Atkinson cycle engines has paid off. This also has meant lower battery replacement costs so those 32K quotes like with that Leaf don't stun owners.

Sending the driveline to all mainstream models as a policy has been a masterstroke, and Joe Public gets to see real savings comparable to the 1.5 to 2K additional price. It's now taking off.

As for Prius, I'm surprised Toyota hasn't yet made it full electric or PHEV to maintain the flagship fuel miser/environment saver status it had. Maybe the tech isn't yet mature enough? Maybe they don't need the model anymore?

Hybrid 300 Landcruiser will be interesting.

Toyota’s strategy is excellent. Just give buyers the cheapest hybrid you can so they can gloat to their friends they are saving the planet. Just ignore the fact the more expensive plug ins are using half the fuel. Or EV’s are using none.

But with all environmental issues, being seen to be doing something is actually more important than actually doing something worthwhile.

EV’s burn so much co2 in mining and manufacturing the batteries and electric motors, that they will never be less co2 intensive over their lifespans than a small petrol car. Don’t tell the greenies that though.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Yeah it’s about 12k extra for phev. Rav4 is 2k. The phev is miles better, uses half the fuel, but buyers will just look at cost and avoid it. Which is a shame cause it’s vastly superior. 1.9 litres per 100 versus 4.6 for the rav 4 hybrid.

2020 Ford Escape pricing (before on-roads):
Escape FWD 2.0 EcoBoost - $35,990
Escape ST-Line FWD 2.0 EcoBoost - $37,990
Escape ST-Line AWD 2.0 EcoBoost - $40,990
Escape Vignale FWD 2.0L EcoBoost - $46,590
Escape Vignale AWD 2.0L EcoBoost - $49,590
Escape ST-Line PHEV FWD - $52,940
It's actually nearly $15K more to step up from petrol to hybrid in the 2020 Escape. I think a FWD Rav4 Cruiser is $41K +orc....no chance of selling at a 10th of Rav4 volume if it's $14K more even allowing for the higher specs.
Should add Escape is a plug in hybrid, Rav is not. Europe does have a Escape Diesel/Mild Hybrid available.
https://www.ford.co.uk/content/dam/g...T-new_kuga.pdf

[jpd80]

Man, this is crazy, no 2.0 EB in Endura and now they’re
overcompensating with 2.0 EB in Escape and no diesel.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I'm seeing a lot of those MG3s on the road, they're cheap as too.

It's a mildly successful Chinese light car:

https://www.caradvice.com.au/731365/2019-mg-3-review/

I'd consider it if it didn't come with a gutless naturally aspirated engine.

Also a lot of the newer LDV T90 utes too.

MG have been good with dealer roll outs too. They have some trusted dealerships in the community backing their product. Remember the early successful days of Daewoo? It can and has been done in the past, the only negative feedback on MG at this point is the cost of parts. People replacing brake pads / rotors at the 30k mark?

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Man, this is crazy, no 2.0 EB in Endura and now they’re
overcompensating with 2.0 EB in Escape and no diesel.

My crystal ball reckons we wont see Endura for more then another 12 months max.... Its now an older product and I reckon Ford is quietly trying to let it die.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Smoke Pursuit

My crystal ball reckons we wont see Endura for more then another 12 months max.... Its now an older product and I reckon Ford is quietly trying to let it die.

Not even that, the price is just too rich.

I've heard that the next gen is C2 based but yes, we probably won't see it here.
Endura needed three things, the lower cost three row Chinese version with a 2.0 EB version.

[CyberWasp]

and a different name.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Toyota’s strategy is excellent. Just give buyers the cheapest hybrid you can so they can gloat to their friends they are saving the planet. Just ignore the fact the more expensive plug ins are using half the fuel. Or EV’s are using none.

But with all environmental issues, being seen to be doing something is actually more important than actually doing something worthwhile.

EV’s burn so much co2 in mining and manufacturing the batteries and electric motors, that they will never be less co2 intensive over their lifespans than a small petrol car. Don’t tell the greenies that though.

It's more about everyday people making significant fuel savings for not much of a premium on the regular car. Not so much about the saving of the planet virtue signalling. (I could link Stan's Hybrid Car song...) The truly virtuous are now spouting that they don't own a car or just cycle/rideshare.

If my assumption is right and you are at Ford, surely you guys can see this? Prius had the virtue, but the moment Camry and Corolla (and now RAV4 with huge success) went hybrid the sales of the hybrid system went through the roof, on everyday cars for normal people.

There are graded steps to this, first hybrid, then PHEV where Ford have aimed well, then electric. Takeup will be a function of pricing/ROI. eg. If savings pay for the extra feature in 4 years or less, I outlay the capital to upgrade it. Solar paid itself back here in 3 years. Batteries aren't there yet. For a car, if I go from 8L/100 to 4L/100 and do 10,000km a year, that's 4L x 100 = 400L savings, x 1.30 (rough average price, it's about to fall bigly) = saving of $520. A 2K additional price is paid back in 4 years in this example.

I reckon far more of the public thinks this way, rather than

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnFAAdOBB1c



*agree with your last para. You should see the mess Lithium mining can make.

[Poetic Justice]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

In the retail market Triton is the cheaper model, however as this group gets a quote across it's whole fleet at roll-over time it really comes down to the incentives provided by the manufacturer month to month which can be a further discount on national fleet pricing, plus the preparedness of an individual dealer to make a deal. One thing I didn't ask was if the group does it's own servicing or goes to a dealer?

As to Chinese vehicles I still think there is a buyer reluctance otherwise why doesn't everybody buy one...time will either prove or disprove perceptions.

I don't think it's still well known just how much say VW/Audi builds and sells in China or GM or Ford etc...made in China is one thing, built in China with international QC standards is another...but I'm going way off topic...

I understand but Triton being a cheaper ute from the get-go (ie. invoice pricing) then I don't think it would particularly matter how much incentives are - I would imagine any dealer with any limited help from manufacturer wouldn't make a Hilux as cheap as a Triton spec-for-spec.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

It's more about everyday people making significant fuel savings for not much of a premium on the regular car. Not so much about the saving of the planet virtue signalling. (I could link Stan's Hybrid Car song...) The truly virtuous are now spouting that they don't own a car or just cycle/rideshare.

If my assumption is right and you are at Ford, surely you guys can see this? Prius had the virtue, but the moment Camry and Corolla (and now RAV4 with huge success) went hybrid the sales of the hybrid system went through the roof, on everyday cars for normal people.

There are graded steps to this, first hybrid, then PHEV where Ford have aimed well, then electric. Takeup will be a function of pricing/ROI. eg. If savings pay for the extra feature in 4 years or less, I outlay the capital to upgrade it. Solar paid itself back here in 3 years. Batteries aren't there yet. For a car, if I go from 8L/100 to 4L/100 and do 10,000km a year, that's 4L x 100 = 400L savings, x 1.30 (rough average price, it's about to fall bigly) = saving of $520. A 2K additional price is paid back in 4 years in this example.

I reckon far more of the public thinks this way, rather than

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnFAAdOBB1c



*agree with your last para. You should see the mess Lithium mining can make.

Ford have made a better fist of hybrids in the US. Been selling them there for a pretty long time.

Australia hasn't really cared too much about hybrids until the last year or 2. But Toyota's success with them has been by getting the price of them so cheap, over and above the regular petrol models. Now Ford is moving onto the more advanced plug in hybrids, but have to charge a lot more for them. Toyota don't bring in their plug in hybrids here, because they would be charging a lot more for them. They sell them in Japan and the US.

Ford really should have been selling basic cheap hybrid systems here a couple of years ago to get into the market, and then focused on plug ins later on.

Toyota seem to be the only ones having any success selling hybrids. All the other brands only get tiny %'s of sales of hybrid versions.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Man, this is crazy, no 2.0 EB in Endura and now they’re
overcompensating with 2.0 EB in Escape and no diesel.

I'm telling ya, as much as a hybrid Escape would be nice and I'd imagine my wife's regular home to cbd work trips would mean she could probably use no petrol in a return trip all week after overnight recharge that Vignale with a 183kW/387Nm I4 turbo petrol and paddle shifters will be is very hard to bypass and you save $3.5K and get AWD.