Hypothetical-would Ford be in better position if it had FG wagon instead of Territory

[flappist]

Originally Posted by arronm

Thats exactly right and if I want an up market wagon and shop "A" doesnt have it I will buy it from shop "B". Then all my servicing and parts money will go to shop "B" and then when I need a new car I may look in shop "B" first and may consider shop "A"

But I am probably the minority.

On the other hand by not making the wagon which "forced" you to go to shop "B" shop "A" may have saved more money than they would have made if you bought a new car every week.

I find it amusing that the one that makes all the models that "everyone wants" e.g. cheap N/A V8s and sports wagons is the same one that had a couple of billion dollars handed to them and STILL made a loss.

[arronm]

I agree and with all that hand out money they still laid off a large amount of workers.

But in this case I will be selfish and say I dont care about the company and buy what suits my needs, because thats exactly what all new car buyers are doing. That dont care about holden or ford.

If new buyers at least considered a holden or ford before their purchase our local car industry may be in a better condition than it is.

BUT take a look WHO is buying new cars today and who was buying a new car in 1980 or 1990.

If I moved to America and owned a VE over here I would probably buy a Pontiac G8 over there. Get my drift.

[RedHotGT]

Well, My answer to the OP is No.

Fleet sales are actually BAD for profitability of a major car company.
Sure - you sell a whole heap of cars - but at a reduced price (read: less profit).
Now - a fleet buyer is going to own the car for less than 2 years (give or take) and then sell it off (cheap) to buy another one.
The reason this effects the RETAIL market, is because a buyer who may have considered buying a new car from the manufacturer, can now buy a 2 year old example at a MUCH cheaper price.
1 single fleet sale can actually effect the sale of 2 x vehicles. The first car was sold for reduced profit, and then the resale can effect what would have been a retail buyer of a new car.
Short Version: Fleet Sales are not what Car Manufacturers want.

[mik]

Originally Posted by onfire

I think Ford would be in a much better position if they had invested heavily in an Australian developed and built mid-sized sedan, rather than the Mondeo.

And preferably rear wheel drive ;).

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Gothefalcon

Similarly... the FG is a slightly wider bodied car on a "carry over" platform (so to speak... the way I understand it) not an "All new" ground up design.

The only thing the FG shared with the BF was the floor from around the rear diff to the back and everything below it, including the rear suspension. Everything above that and forward of that was all new, which IMO is good enough to call all new. Most people don't realise just how very little of the platform was carried over. There is nothing forward of the rear diff or above it that isn't unique to the FG in terms of chassis and body.

I'm not talking powertrain or wiring or anything like that, i'm soley talking chassis and body.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Hypothetical-would Ford be in better position if it had FG wagon

Absolutely.
It may well be another case of "right decision at THAT time," but there has been a resurgence in wagon sales.
An Ecoli option would be a BIG hit with Taxi's and fleets, an XR6T "Sports Wagon" would go down a treat, and if the EB ever takes off a wagon version would also work.
Whilst I understand there would be signifigant work involved, I don't understand why it would be SO hard (in the scheme of things)???
Is there something fundamentally different about the FG platform?
Obviously it would nolonger be a LWB variant, but what is so hard about whacking a wagon rear on the exiting FG?

[Brazen]

It would be easier to make FG wagon than a BF wagon, because now with the FG the window frames are separate to the door pressing, so you just need to change the window frame on the two side rear doors instead of having two different door pressings for BF sedan and wagon.

You can also tell the FG was designed with a wagon in mind with a horizontal side window line rather than the rising wedge shape that most sedans have nowadays. The FG would be easy to continue the side window line for a wagon.

I think a wagon is a necessity nowadays to make Falcon relevant for the buyers who now see SUVs as a more appropriate family car, it is too much of a stretch to have them consider a sedan. Also ECOLPI is wasted without a wagon.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by flappist

On the other hand by not making the wagon which "forced" you to go to shop "B" shop "A" may have saved more money than they would have made if you bought a new car every week.

I find it amusing that the one that makes all the models that "everyone wants" e.g. cheap N/A V8s and sports wagons is the same one that had a couple of billion dollars handed to them and STILL made a loss.

Holden has made profits, Ford has made record losses.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Holden has made profits, Ford has made record losses.

Who wouldn't make profits if you received double the handouts, what would those profits be if they only got $1billion?

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Holden has made profits, Ford has made record losses.

Do you even know what those losses were, or are you just trying to point-score?

[mcflux]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Also ECOLPI is wasted without a wagon.

Wagons ftw, but I disagree here. Any ECOLPI car purchased is a winner over its petrol equivalent, with the exception of big-hp bang-for-buck or driven-to-church owners.

I've got my eye on ECOLPI utes (or egas) as my next car.

Also FG wagon doesn't make sense when terri & mondeo cover the bases in lieu of the falcon wagon (exception: telstra).

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Absolutely.
It may well be another case of "right decision at THAT time," but there has been a resurgence in wagon sales.
An Ecoli option would be a BIG hit with Taxi's and fleets, an XR6T "Sports Wagon" would go down a treat, and if the EB ever takes off a wagon version would also work.
Whilst I understand there would be signifigant work involved, I don't understand why it would be SO hard (in the scheme of things)???
Is there something fundamentally different about the FG platform?
Obviously it would nolonger be a LWB variant, but what is so hard about whacking a wagon rear on the exiting FG?

Taxi operators rarely buy new Falcons now, they pick up 2nd handers from the auctions. Fleets have always avoided gas, and the XR6 wagon was a flop whenever it was tried.

Unfortunately Hybrids are killing the lpg Taxi, they are just way cheaper to run in an urban enviroment, and the concerns with the batteries are turning out to be a non issue.

The Territory saved the bacon

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The only thing the FG shared with the BF was the floor from around the rear diff to the back and everything below it, including the rear suspension. Everything above that and forward of that was all new, which IMO is good enough to call all new. Most people don't realise just how very little of the platform was carried over. There is nothing forward of the rear diff or above it that isn't unique to the FG in terms of chassis and body.

I'm not talking powertrain or wiring or anything like that, i'm soley talking chassis and body.

If that is the case... then, me included... and thanks for clearing that up !
D

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by tweeked

Taxi operators rarely buy new Falcons now, they pick up 2nd handers from the auctions. Fleets have always avoided gas, and the XR6 wagon was a flop whenever it was tried.

Unfortunately Hybrids are killing the lpg Taxi, they are just way cheaper to run in an urban enviroment, and the concerns with the batteries are turning out to be a non issue.

The Territory saved the bacon

Times have changed since XR6 wagon was out in 1994. Back then only 4% of Falcon were XR6. Now 45% are.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Times have changed since XR6 wagon was out in 1994. Back then only 4% of Falcon were XR6. Now 45% are.

Ahhhh good old percentages...........

That isn't far off the same number of cars though is it?

4% of 73000 = about 3000. 45% of say 10000 is 4500. Neither figure is anywhere near the volume needed to make a viable market.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by tweeked

Taxi operators rarely buy new Falcons now, they pick up 2nd handers from the auctions. Fleets have always avoided gas, and the XR6 wagon was a flop whenever it was tried.

Unfortunately Hybrids are killing the lpg Taxi, they are just way cheaper to run in an urban enviroment, and the concerns with the batteries are turning out to be a non issue.

The Territory saved the bacon

That makes no sense in so many ways
Taxi drivers LOVE Falcons and Falcon wagons, many will cling to their BF3 wagons until they are forced off the road.
Yes, a pry-*** is cheaper to run than a Falcon, so is a Vespa.
Fleets don’t like LPG, hahahaha what planet are you living on?

Xr6 Wagon a flop? What does that even mean? The FG XR6 is a trim level, ie something more appealing than the taxi pack. V8 wagons were always popular, so if they could comply a XR6T wagon without too much additional expense it would sell.

FFS Nobody is suggesting that Hyundai Getz owners will flock to the Falcon Wagon, but it would pull sales back from Camry’s, 6’s, Commodes, and even vans.
Nor am I suggesting it will single handedly save the Falcon. But, assuming it’s not too hard or too expensive to build a wagon on the E8 platform, the extra sales could be a welcome boost.

And Terrirtory saved WHAT bacon? The FG is nolonger built on the 169 platform, so the only real commonality is the I6, which they are trying to phase out of the Terri, and which is going to be replaced with a V6 anyway.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

That makes no sense in so many ways
Taxi drivers LOVE Falcons and Falcon wagons, many will cling to their BF3 wagons until they are forced off the road.
Yes, a pry-*** is cheaper to run than a Falcon, so is a Vespa.
Fleets don’t like LPG, hahahaha what planet are you living on?

Xr6 Wagon a flop? What does that even mean? The FG XR6 is a trim level, ie something more appealing than the taxi pack. V8 wagons were always popular, so if they could comply a XR6T wagon without too much additional expense it would sell.

FFS Nobody is suggesting that Hyundai Getz owners will flock to the Falcon Wagon, but it would pull sales back from Camry’s, 6’s, Commodes, and even vans.
Nor am I suggesting it will single handedly save the Falcon. But, assuming it’s not too hard or too expensive to build a wagon on the E8 platform, the extra sales could be a welcome boost.

And Terrirtory saved WHAT bacon? The FG is nolonger built on the 169 platform, so the only real commonality is the I6, which they are trying to phase out of the Terri, and which is going to be replaced with a V6 anyway.

Yes they love Falcons, but they rarely buy new ones. They pick most up at auctions.

I take it you are from Melbourne, it is a Falcon taxi stronghold, but Falcons are now outnumbered by hybrid Toyotas (not just Prius - the Camry is now the mainstay) in places like Brisbane.

I do know what an XR6 is, but maybe you dont recall the XR6 wagon, the model that they did try, but they couldnt sell enough so they stopped building them.

Also aware where the Terry comes from, and that it is built on the Falcon line. Without it, they would have closed up shop IMO for sure.

[VICFPV]

If they build a lowered lwb territory that looks like a wagon. Issue resolved.

[Gothefalcon]

This is how I see/understand it... In a time, not all that long ago... business with large fleets would buy their cars... and have workshops to look after them... large taxi operators were probably the last of such business' to operate in this way !?? When they could buy a full fleet from Ford or Holden... they would generally chose one or the other.. and stick with that make.. as then they could have Sedan, Wagon & LWB (for premium service)... but there would be a fair comonality of parts.... so if a trans blew up, they could bring the car in and swap it out for another one to get the car back on the road... and then get the stuffed one reco'd to put back in "stock" ready for the next car that died... this would apply to many parts, engines, diffs, etc...
Times change... and with every new model.update.. the comonality of parts would slowly reduce... making it less atractive to stay with one make etc...
When Ford killed the Fairlane... it meant that some taxi fleets would have to move to Statesman for their Premium service vehicles.. to retain the comonality... they then slowly moved the rest of the fleets over to Holdens as well... When Holden stopped making it's wagon for a while ( a fair gap before VE Wagon arrived)... it left some fleets looking for what to replace them with... good 2nd hand vehicles started to become the norm....
Now these are running out too... and Aussie cars aren't all that "cheap" to keep anymore.. 6spd transmissions.... Dana diffs that constantly need carrier bearings etc (I have never needed to repair any of my BW diffs/bearings etc... but every car I've owned with a Dana diff has needed something done to it at some stage ! Taxi fleets would notice this a lot more!)
As leasing slowly became the norm for fleets... and in-house workshops slowly became the exception )rather than the rule) so business has allowed "what ever car you want - within this criteria" to be the choice...
Now.. a lot of business are moving to "cheaper to run", over "cheaper to buy"... so the large "average" car segment is slowly being eroded away... and most punters don't buy "base spec" anymore...
Lease cars are looked after by the manufacturer, under warantee... and then upgraded before it runs out... Business tax incentives made many years ago were set up to encourage business to turn their fleets over this way (which is why cars lose approx 50% of their value in 3yrs)... so the average punter could afford a better (newer) car cheaper... thus lowering the age of the national fleet... thus helping to make the roads safer but getting more "clunkers" off our roads.
There are probably many more factors in the equation... but if business and taxi fleets no longer support the local industry... and punters keep moving towards the many many more options they have in vehicles now... it just makes it harder for out local industry to find the cash to invest in developing new models (or keep some existing ones)
If Ford & Holden want to keep the Falcon & Commydore... then they just have to create "the car" that everyone want to own ! (much easier said than done, I know... but has been done before)
Ford has gone some way towards swaying the fleets, by fitting the 4cyl ecoboost in the Falcon... but it will take a while for the fleets to come around to that (why buy a turbo 2.0... when they can buy a similar car with a N/A 2.0, cheaper?)
FBT laws changes again recently... many business' are now just giving their empoyees their car allowances as normal income... it's cheaper to do it that way... and then empoyees can buy whatever they want (ie: a cheaper car and pocket the rest.. or a dearer car and put in some cash of ther own... or a different car they like better)... further undermining the local industry (not Ford & GMH perse'... but the locally built offerings from these brands)

Their are many factors which, together, are currently leading towards the eventual demise of our local industry (the strong Assie dollar and other countries products flooding out markets included)... it will take changes in Govt. policy, Aussie business and punters alike to support our local manufacturers.. and our local manufacturers to make the cars we all "have to have", and many other things combined, before things get any better !

Like I said... this is how I see it... I could be right, somewhat naive, or completely wrong.... for the good of the local industry and my beloved Falcon... I hope I am !

D

[Crazy Dazz]

In the EF, the XR6 was a limited production model with a modified engine, that sold at something like a 20% premium to a Futura. At the time you could get a V8 wagon in most trim levels at only a small premium to the I6.
Fast forward 20 years, and the XR6 has been whittled back to little more than a trim level. It is pretty much the entry level model for private buyers (effectively replacing the Futura.) Its nuts to suggest that private buyers of a Falcon wagon wouldn’t pay a little extra for something above the poverty pack.
“CONCEPTUALLY” the XR6 turbo has replaced the original XR6, and yes that would be a limited seller. It might still attract buyers given that there is no V8 Falcon, and nolonger a performance Territory.

I think what has killed off so many variants is the compliance costs. Back in the old days, if a combination was possible, Ford & Holden whacked it together and sold a few. Now, as I understand it, if you change the fundamentals of a vehicle (ie not just cosmetics and trim) it has to go through all the emissions and safety compliance again, so the developments costs are substantial. This would also create a problem whereby it would be pointless to develop a sedan to JUST meet emissions standards, if by adding a few kilos and changing the shape the wagon doesn’t.
IMHO, if the sedan qualifies, and the wagon is simply a legitimate variant, then it should automatically qualify also. Similarly safety checks should only apply to the bits that have changed, and be done only once.

[Nikked]

No...


The falcon wagon never achieved the numbers the Territory has...

Holden making profit? They have made quite a few losses since the VE...

[barra240t]

Never ever, full stop. Polities got it right, SUV was the future

[Road_Warrior]

What would have strengthened their position is if they spun another SUV off the Territory platform. Say X3 sized.

[jpd80]

And would Holden even have a Sportwagon had commitments to Pontiac not gone so badly awry,
MO, Holden would have nixed the Zeta wagon and even the Ute if they knew GMNA was going to reneg on orders.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

And would Holden even have a Sportwagon had commitments to Pontiac not gone so badly awry,
MO, Holden would have nixed the Zeta wagon and even the Ute if they knew GMNA was going to reneg on orders.

Sportwagon was never a export certainty, the US market just doesnt favour wagons that much. There was talk of a G8 sportwagon but nothing ever happened, ute was confirmed as an export but that was late in the game and not pivotal to the ute being developed.

[R-Design]

I think Ford got it right with the Teeritory, they've just failed to keep up with spending to keep it fresh relative to the competition. The latest facelift should have been a completely new model but that ships sailed.

As for Falcon, it needed to move with the times. If it'd changed from a sedan to hatch configuration you would have had the best of both worlds, a car with a sporty silhouette and perceived practicality. Look at the Mondeo, do they even sell the sedan here, or was it so unpopular that it was dropped from the range?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Sportwagon was never a export certainty, the US market just doesnt favour wagons that much. There was talk of a G8 sportwagon but nothing ever happened, ute was confirmed as an export but that was late in the game and not pivotal to the ute being developed.

Same thing happened with G8 Sporwagon but was cancelled before the public ever got wind of it.

Originally Posted by R-Design

As for Falcon, it needed to move with the times. If it'd changed from a sedan to hatch configuration you would have had the best of both worlds, a car with a sporty silhouette and perceived practicality. Look at the Mondeo, do they even sell the sedan here, or was it so unpopular that it was dropped from the range?

You could almost use the hatch and rear glass from the Mondeo to do that, add a V6 diesel option and we're there.

I personally don't see Ecoboost or EcoLPI going anywhere much, they're both brilliant ideas
but it's like Ford is trying to feed buyers them alternatives to diesels, anything but what they really want.

The main competition to large cars is small and medium SUVs, both of which have a high % of diesel sales.
So if Holden and Ford wanted to compete with those vehicles, wouldn't ti make sense to add some of those features.
A hatchback for better utility and a diesel for greater efficiency would be a great start.

Ask impartial people how they think a hatchback diesel Falcon would sell in the market and watch the thought processes start....

[FPV GTHO]

I've heard various comments about all VE variants that they were done the way they were because of export potential - bigger standard wheelbase, largely differentiated LWB as well as greenlighting sports wagon and SWB ute.

Had they known how where their exports took them I'm sure the whole range would be completely different.

[R-Design]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I personally don't see Ecoboost or EcoLPI going anywhere much, they're both brilliant ideas....

Since Polities went to Jaguar all those years ago Ford AU lost its champion. We had a man not only with vision but the charisma and salesmanship to sell his ideas to the brass in the USA. Everything thats happened in the last ten years has been a weak attempt to hold onto what we had then instead of pushing forward based on those foundations. EcoBoost in Falcon was dictated by Ford US passenger cars we to have a 4 cylinder variant. It was a waste of money and resources, Falcon already has too many engine variations.

Ford AU has been biting off more then they can chew, diesel territory, Falcon V8, and EcoBoost. All late to market, and all underperforming sales wise.

[Ducati888]

Ford is not in trouble, nor is it in a bad position.

Ford Australia manufacturing may be just about done, but Ford as a global organisation is the third biggest auto maker. That's far from being in a bad position. From Detroit's point of view, they are humming along very nicely indeed. Detroit's point of view is the only one of any relevance in the big picture.

That doesn't help Broady or Geelong, but it is the reality.

A more correct question would have been "would Falcon be in a better position...."