Hundreds of guns seized in NSW raid

[blownvn]

Ken you seem fixated on the defense of possessions thing.

My original point in this thread was the defense of your person and it still is. You're saying it's not right to shoot someone (again you fixate on the killing, I'm talking about shooting to stop) who only wants to steal your possessions.

If you stop the guy stealing your possessions then he's probably going to attack you, then it becomes a case of defending your life. The whole whole point of CCW is to defend your, or your families lives. That's it, full stop. The problem you seem to have with it is that if they're only after your possessions then that's ok. So what about someone who just wants to assault you, rape you or kill you. Rape and assault are survivable but I would certainly shoot to stop either from happening to me or mine.

As for martial arts, yep, been there done that. I met my wife at Karate and I did it for about four years. I gave up when it became more about how much work the school could squeeze out of me rather than what I learned. I paid my fees each month for the privilege of running classes three times a week while not receiving a reduction in fees or any extra training myself. I also learned that martial arts might look good in the dojo but generally you won't use much of it on the street. The best thing about martial arts is learning to take a hit and what it's like to actually hit someone hard but other than that you're better off using knees and elbows and going for the soft targets like the throat, groin or your opponents knees. Martial arts is also not much use against multiple attackers. A gun however is the great equaliser.
It doesn't matter if your young or old, weak or strong, fat or thin. With some training anyone can be proficient with a firearm, certainly within the ranges of self defense (10m or less). The same can't be said for martial arts or even running away. I can certainly outrun my wife or seven year old daughter, but I can't outrun attackers with them at my side.

CCW isn't about punishment, it's about defense. Even in America (most states anyway) it's not OK to shoot someone who is running away with your stuff and I'm certainly not advocating that here. What I am advocating is the use of force to defend yourself from robbery, rape or assault.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ken2903

I am 99% sure you are wrong but to be fair, i did do a quick search and couldn't find anything. I asked you for a link because i know you can't provide one. I don't mean to sound rude and i honestly oppologise if it sounds that way, but the things you are posting are more damaging to your credibility and your position on the subject than it would be if you said nothing.

I am telling the way the law is. If you don't believe me then that is not my problem. It is interesting that NO ONE has shown any evidence to dispute ANYTHING I have stated and many have supported me with their own experience and evidence.

With which particular points do you disagree?

Edit: In that you are not that good at google it took me about 2 minutes to find this:

http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LE...WeaponsR96.pdf

Read Part 7

You can find the other states yourself...

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by ken2903

Nope, criminals are bad people but they are people just the same. Forget about legal issues for a second though, it is not ok to end someones life, even a criminal, for stealing your possessions. Is your stuff worth more than someones life?
I understand what your saying, give people the right to own a firearm for defense and the criminals that want to risk there lives will be sorted out pretty quickly, while the others will think twice. The problem is that using lethal force isn't punishment for a crime, its to prevent a crime. The mindset of you and others is just so far off track that people (the criminal ones) will start being shot for crimes that simply do not warrant the use of lethal force.

This is where I go grey. Let me be devils advocate for a moment.

Stealing your posessions. He/she isn't going to take you on or your posessions with a feather. They're coming armed with something. Now, you're also considering the person that is robbing you is in complete control of their faculties, not under an influence of an illicit drug (note the sarcasm...) so there's no uniform stripping of your hard earned booty.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by HLC

don't you think that the thought or risk of knowing there may be a firearm there wont scare crims away.

its as much a preventive measure as it is a solution if you look at it like that.

There are those, including me that believe that those that are prepared to rob you will now come even more heavily armed incase you have a gun.. and if you make one false move..

So no, I don't think the thought of a firearm will scare potential theives, just look at the US to see how absurd that premise is.

[blownvn]

Originally Posted by Rodp

There are those, including me that believe that those that are prepared to rob you will now come even more heavily armed incase you have a gun.. and if you make one false move..

So no, I don't think the thought of a firearm will scare potential theives, just look at the US to see how absurd that premise is.

People defend themselves successfully in the US every day using firearms. I bet those that do would rather have their guns than try for the moral high ground and say, "No, I don't like guns".

I wonder if you could go back in time and offer any of the dead or injured at Port Arthur a gun for defense knowing what was going to happen whether any of them would go, "Gosh no, guns are bad."

Lets face it, just one legally armed person in that cafe could have stopped the massacre in its tracks.
Before anyone starts with the, "oh, but more people would have been killed or injured by stray shots," then look at this example from the US just the other day.

http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...D=200880526010

A gunman walked into a bar in Nevada and gunned down two people before being shot himself by a person with a concealed weapon and the permit to carry it. The bar held 300 people yet no-one was injured by the CCW holder who stopped the shooting but several were killed and injured by the attacker.
Imagine the panic of 300 people where gun shots had erupted yet only the attacker was shot and killed.

I could give other examples of shooting cut short by people carrying concealed weapons but a simple search on Google will reveal plenty.

Check out this website:
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefe...g/blogger.html

It keeps track on the many self defense shootings in the US. Legal ownership of guns saves lives.

Crack down on the illegal ownership.

[XR Martin]

Any burglar in the US would tell you their biggest fear is hearing the cocking of a shotgun coming from inside the house. Ask any burglar in Australia what their biggest fear is and its probably tripping on the front step : Wouldnt matter what they were armed with, that noise would be a big enough deterrent.

[blownvn]

I reckon the only reason they banned pump action shotguns in Australia is because they sound scary and they look good in movies. There probably isn't a better weapon for home defense.

Funny thing is, that pump action rifles -regardless of caliber - are still totally legal. Shows you how stupid the gun laws are.

I reckon you should be allowed to own anything. They should just have appropriate licenses for it.
It cracks me up how people still claim anyone can buy a machine gun in the US. Only certain states allow ownership and they are federally controlled in regards to licensing. You need a special license to buy one and it must be registered and no full autos registered after 1986 are allowed, so they cost a fortune due to a fixed amount of guns (no new ones being registered) and a growing group of buyers. To buy one costs thousands, they start at about $3500-4000 for a piece of Cobray M11 and go to $60,000+ for the big stuff like miniguns or M2 .50cals.

[plext]

Bang.

Thread's dead baby. Thread's dead.



(With all required apologies to Q Tarantino)