Do you pre-fill your oil filter and, if so, are we doing it right?

[Winter XR8]

So let's say a FIFO worker leaves his car at the airport while he goes off to do his swing. When he comes back to his car after 2+ weeks away does he (A) jump in and start it up and drive away or (B) does he pre oil his engine before leaving the car park as it has sat dormant for a few weeks? I would say 100% of people would get in and drive away. So I really don't think not pre filling the oil filter after dropping the oil 5 minutes beforehand is going to make any difference at all.

[arronm]

No you crank the engine twice for 5 seconds , then you let it start. I do this if I havnt started my cars for more than a couple of days.

Although the above is completely different to starting a car with a dry oil filter

[wobblysauce]

Never pre-filled any filters(Fuel/Oil, others)... unless it is requested and most applications do not.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Thing is- filling the centre hole - there is a danger of introducing contaminants to engine that are not filtered- so will be unnecessary wear.

And if filling the side holes and pushing open the membrane to get the oil in- is a danger of damaging the membrane with all the problems that will introduce.

And as Bent 8 noted- will be a delay in any event before oil pressure forces oil through the filter-so from my perspective you are introducing a whole lot of risks with negligible benefits.

Probably using a sample of 1,000 users over 20 years will be more damage than good pre filling filters.

In regards to the risk of getting contaminants in the filter when prefilling ....i think the risk in some situations of not being able to get the filter in position without knocking bits of sh#t from under the car into the filter is worse in tight circumstances (filled or dry) , especially if your crawling around under it like i do

Lets be honest do we all fastidieously clean around the oil fill hole when we tip it in , and if you use a funnel you wipe out the main part but the spouts normally full of sh#t cause its been sitting in the garage for months ...go to most workshops and have a look at how clean there dippers are

you can only do your best , sure its not vital but does anyone really believe your gonna do any harm by filling the filter ?

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by wobblysauce

Never pre-filled any filters(Fuel/Oil, others)... unless it is requested and most applications do not.

If you were a diesel mechanic you'd have a really strong lift pump finger

[solarite_guy]

This is certainly an interesting discussion. As I go and research things and recall my past experiences 2 things come to mind.

1. Peeling an onion.
2. Taking a length of some distance. Then continue to divide it by 2 until the end of time.

I don't know if anything discussed here and researched elsewhere will change anyones practices. I know my practices won't change.

I admit I have never seen or heard of anyone, with a pretty much stock application and operating environment, having issues as a result of pre-filling oil filters or not pre-filling. Also, for folks who do pre-fill, I have never heard of issues from either method mentioned here.

However, this is just me for stock like engines, and I will use the same word mentioned earlier by another poster, I cringe at the sound of clatter while a dry filter is filling on startup after an oil and filter change. I absolutely cringe at that sound.

I fill those filters right down the center hole. Am I worried about introducing contaminates that way? To be honest no more so than the worry I have of the filtering media of the new filter having something embedded within it ready to be pushed right into my oiling system.

What I do know is, when I do this, the light goes out or the gauge shows pressure just as quickly as if the oil had never been changed.

This reminds me, based on reading some posts, I think there may be a misconception of where the oil goes when it is poured down the center hole.

The oil does not remain remain only in the center hole. As mentioned very early in the discussion, the oil is wicked up by the filter media. Now, it does not just remain in the media and bottom of the center hole either. The oil runs through the media and on to the other side, i.e. the incoming side.

Then when the center hole is refilled a second or in some cases a third time and after the oil level stabilizes, the oil level as seen in the center hole is the same as the level existing on the other side, the incoming side of the filter media. The entire filter is full as seen visually through the center hole at this point. This reduces the amount of oil volume and distance needed to travel before oil reaching critical areas.

As for modified and racing engines, it is important to know and understand exactly what has been modified and re-engineered in the engine. This applies to oil changes and everything else, when it comes to maintenance. Depending on the changes, maintenance procedures need to change as well.

When we lost that motor back in the 90s, it wasn't just us. A lot of high dollar and sportsman teams had the same problem and we all came up with the same solution, pretty much independent of each other. In this case there was a movement to some cam profiles that were a lot quicker on the leading ramp than normal at that time. So even though the lobes I spec'd out had several degrees of asymmetry built in to slow the valve prior to closing, the opening side was extremely fast. With only 220 - 240 lbs on the seat needed to control the valve, the acceleration rate on the opening side beat up the Clevite77 cam bearing, just a little bit on every start up. That was a valuable lesson. We changed how we engineered, built and maintained motors at that point.

P.S. Thumbs up to smoo. That is pretty much how I "built" my first 2 engines. The first one a 170 slant 6 for a friends Valiant and the 389 for my first car, a '65 GTO. Blind person in the dark.

[Maka]

For those who dont & theres no knock after a fresh oil change, alls good but if you heard that momentary knock start developing, bet you start prefilling your oil filter then lol!

cheers, Maka

[Maka]

From Amsoil's blog - Should I pre-fill the oil filter before installing?

"The Internet is full of pre-fillers and anti-pre-fillers, all of whom seem able to reference a high-mileage conversion van or pickup they’ve serviced for decades either pre-filling or never pre-filling the filter.

Some filter manufacturers say pre-filling the filter isn’t necessary. But remember – they make filters, not engines. There’s a reason engine manufacturers recommend 0W-XX or 5W-XX motor oils, and it’s so the oil flows readily at startup when it’s cold and the engine doesn’t go without vital lubrication while it builds oil pressure.

To help ensure the engine doesn’t start dry, we recommend you pre-fill the oil filter if you can. Horizontally oriented filters can pose a problem, but even they can be pre-filled with some oil. I typically pour a little oil into the filter and tip it sideways and check the oil inside. If there’s room for more before it begins to spill out of the opening in the filter, I add a little more oil before installing the filter."

http://blog.amsoil.com/your-oil-filt...ions-answered/

cheers, Maka

[FTE217]

Can Amsoil or any other Engine Builder etc advise pre mature engine failures due to not pre filling oil filters ?
Has your own better than average mechanic advised this or practiced it ?
In all my years actively involved with my mine who does re builds also no just the general servicing bread and butter don't recall him going on about this and I've done oil changes with him on my cars countless times.

[DJR-351]

My uncle got me into the habit way back when on the farm, over the years I've tried to break the habit but to no avail, I've tried counselling, hypnosis and even went cold turkey, nothing works, once a pre-filler always a pre-filler.......DAM YOU UNCLE MURRAY!!......but i have now come to accept my condition and learned to live with it, it's taken years but i'm no longer ashamed and try to hide it....

I'm a pre-filler, and i'm proud of it!

[FTE217]

acceptance fully DJR-351.
Like many things back in the day - your trained as many are on countless things no harm admitting it good your out of the closet lol......
This practice before my time if I recall part right was prior to the current oil filter cannisters there was filter cartridges ???
Another eg, ike priming a shock absorber way back then when only hydraulic oil filled pre gas pressurisation, oh some still prime their shocks, ffs you can't work the piston rod up to normal speed in the first place.
All I'm saying I've seen no proof at all that pre mature engine failure or problem has been by no fillers - and how many oil/filter changes occur daily right round the country and the world ?

[IPCOlsen]

I always pre fill. If it’s a side mount filter I will still soak the media then empty the excess, cartridges I soak the media in oil before install.

The first start after a change and probs every start the bypass valve will open in the filter letting unfiltered oil through until oil pressure equalises (or close to) on either side of the media. At least by soaking or pre-filling the first start oil doesn’t hit dry media and have to soak through.

Below is some data on a VZ 3.6L which was daily driven for 8km each direction (sample 1-3). Sample 4 was driven once every 2-4 weeks. Over the past 4 years its been in storage and gets started once every 6-11 months driven around over the course of a week (50-100km) then placed back in storage (sample 5). No removal of the fuel pump relay prior to starting. Now I remove the relay for this oil change.

Most interesting point to note is that it seems the particle size is higher in sample 5 especially for the low kms, granted SFA but maybe from the all the dry starts.

Also time has no adverse on oil condition, at 4 years I still changed it too soon. Filter was taken apart and appeared fine.

[XByoot]

We run accusump on hi po engines to pre oil as well as ensure adequate supply of oil under all operating conditions so I guess why not pre fill filters.

Hey Solarite..a 170 Slant huh? Great old engines. In OZ due to our RHD cars there’s no room for the oil filters on the oil pump so we run a remote oil filter and very long solid lines over to the water pump area, they run right under the exhaust manifold so oil temps must get interesting if anyone ever measured them!. When you drop the filter the lines will usually drain,I seriously doubt anyone bothered giving it a second though when they designed this system and the seem to live well as a low stress engine they are.That being said why not pre fill the oil filter to reduce the pain, no harm.

[Vesper Martini]

If a filter is mounted sideways or upside down that's a good clue it doesn't need to be pre filled.

when I serviced Trucks we pre-filled the filters, but they sat upright, and took a lot more oil than a car filter.

ive never pre filled a car oil filter.

[commodorenutt]

It's like toilet paper..... folder or scruncher, over or under....embossed or plain.....

Anyone remember the "toilet roll" filter conversions? Not sure how good they really worked, and how quickly they opened the bypass valve, but I've seen a couple of old cars in one of the vintage clubs with them. Pretty much like the Alloytec cartridge, but takes a dunny roll (without the cardboard). One of my mates is into 4WD'ing and was telling me yesterday there's a company pushing them all over again, some 60 years later.

I guess we'll still be pre-filling in another 60 years too....

[aussiblue]

If a filter is mounted sideways or upside down that's a good clue it doesn't need to be pre filled.

But if you pre-fill on the inlet side and the anti-drainback valve is working you should be able to invert the filter momentarily to screw it on without losing all that cold viscous oil. That's how we used to do it with the Rambler Rebel with the filter sitting inverted front and centre (slightly to the drivers side) but admittedly engine build tolerances were probably much less tight than now and oil much heavier and viscous back in the early 70's.

[aussiblue]

...and I very much younger and faster so I could flip a filled oil filter pretty quickly.

[solarite_guy]

Originally Posted by XByoot

We run accusump on hi po engines to pre oil as well as ensure adequate supply of oil under all operating conditions so I guess why not pre fill filters.

Hey Solarite..a 170 Slant huh? Great old engines. In OZ due to our RHD cars there’s no room for the oil filters on the oil pump so we run a remote oil filter and very long solid lines over to the water pump area, they run right under the exhaust manifold so oil temps must get interesting if anyone ever measured them!. When you drop the filter the lines will usually drain,I seriously doubt anyone bothered giving it a second though when they designed this system and the seem to live well as a low stress engine they are.That being said why not pre fill the oil filter to reduce the pain, no harm.

Hey Steve, I like the Accusumps too, but just never ran them, for one reason or another. Usually the car owner. And to be honest a lot of "street car" classes don't allow them or even allow dry sumps. A local fella here (Tommy Howes), who used to run with the Wild Bunch down in Australia, usually has an accusump. All in all I think the pre-charging and the time it buys you in the event of oil system problems are both good to have.

That 170 slant 6 was smooth as glass. Flat tappet cam and all. It is kind of funny what you describe about that long oil line. I can't remember how that oil filter was set up. At that time I may not have thought twice about it. Today, my conscience wouldn't let me spin a dry filter on in that situation.

I had a very similarly long return line on my first 7 second engine. But it was a dry sump with an external 5 stage SCP pump. The pump hung off the lower right front of the engine (as you sit in the car). The return line got kind of close to #1 header pipe. We wrapped that pipe. Then with a zip tie held the line to a water spigot on the block to hug it, then up and over the back of the engine and blow shield to a System 1 filter mounted on the firewall on other side of the engine. Then it dumped into the filter boss on the side of the block. Then is the motor sat for any period of time, it took literally 5 seconds (if that) to pop off the drive belt, spin up the pump to get oil pressure in the system and replace the belt. That RDI alloy block never saw babbitt bearings in the cam tunnel and a 55mm core supported the profiles it ran and it never started without pressurising the oiling system first.

The System 1 reminds me of something IPCOlsen brought up. It is true, a liquid passing through a porous fabric media has an easier time on initial contact when the media is wet with the same liquid to begin with, than if the media is dry to begin with.

I also, wet the media in my upside down lawn mower filter before installing it. Just for that reason. Nothing runs out all over the place, when I install the filter, but the media is wet.

Back to the System 1, it has a metal mesh filter much like an Oberg. However, my System 1 filters have the shape and dimensions of an FL1A, where as the Oberg comes flat, rectangular, etc. The metal mesh filters don't seem to pose quite as much resistance to flow on initial contact with a fluid as the fabric filters do. Part of that may be, because the metal filter media is probably never or very rarely actually dry.

I found a crappy picture that shows the oil line I described as it comes from behind the headers and over the back of the engine. Now imagine the oil having to go through the filter and then up to the front of the block where the oil filter boss is located. Kind of reminds me of your description of that slant 6 set up.

[Smoke Pursuit]

I was always taught to oil the o ring and leave it at that. Start the vehicle wait for the oil light to go off switch it off and then dip the stick and add if required. FYI I'm only a bush mechanic but spent sometime as a young fella working on trucks with a qualified diesel mechanic.

What is more distressing is the amount of vehicles I see that miss service intervals, or do up to double the recommended km's before an oil change, most of which still go perfectly?

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

Anyone remember the "toilet roll" filter conversions? Not sure how good they really worked, and how quickly they opened the bypass valve, but I've seen a couple of old cars in one of the vintage clubs with them. Pretty much like the Alloytec cartridge, but takes a dunny roll (without the cardboard). One of my mates is into 4WD'ing and was telling me yesterday there's a company pushing them all over again, some 60 years later.

commodore, did you read post #17.
I have 1 remote (oil) 4M dunny roll filter and 1 remote (fuel) 4M filter. They work great, truck runs nice and cool due to oil being circulated up into some airflow.
Jackmaster in Melbourne is still selling the rolls. Though you can just use two ply rolls.
http://www.jackmasteroilfilters.com....ents-plus-info

4M were made in Sydney but I've traced their company to WA now.

I really do not know why they fitted it as the truck has a Ryco spin on and another LHS mounted factory remote filter. Later Traders just have two block mounted spin ons.

The one pictured (on the tray headboard) takes 4 stacked rolls.

[Davehoos]

Most of the toilet roll filter I seen where fitted to bypass systems.
Ie grey Holden.it has no original filter. often came across these with toilet roll shreaded.

Lot of trucks use a bypass filter circuit Our T4100 had one.

Oil normally dumped into the sump or the oil pump once normal oil pressure is achieved is directed to the filter. Newer cars now have a second filter inside the screw on filter.

Bigger Isuzu have a massive filter and the hole base for the oil is tiny.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Davehoos

Most of the toilet roll filter I seen where fitted to bypass systems
Lot of trucks use a bypass filter circuit Our T4100 had one..

Like this LHS one, inside, next to the air filters, yes same system, same truck different engine.

[XByoot]

Originally Posted by solarite_guy

Hey Steve, I like the Accusumps too, but just never ran them, for one reason or another. Usually the car owner. And to be honest a lot of "street car" classes don't allow them or even allow dry sumps. A local fella here (Tommy Howes), who used to run with the Wild Bunch down in Australia, usually has an accusump. All in all I think the pre-charging and the time it buys you in the event of oil system problems are both good to have.

That 170 slant 6 was smooth as glass. Flat tappet cam and all. It is kind of funny what you describe about that long oil line. I can't remember how that oil filter was set up. At that time I may not have thought twice about it. Today, my conscience wouldn't let me spin a dry filter on in that situation.

I had a very similarly long return line on my first 7 second engine. But it was a dry sump with an external 5 stage SCP pump. The pump hung off the lower right front of the engine (as you sit in the car). The return line got kind of close to #1 header pipe. We wrapped that pipe. Then with a zip tie held the line to a water spigot on the block to hug it, then up and over the back of the engine and blow shield to a System 1 filter mounted on the firewall on other side of the engine. Then it dumped into the filter boss on the side of the block. Then is the motor sat for any period of time, it took literally 5 seconds (if that) to pop off the drive belt, spin up the pump to get oil pressure in the system and replace the belt. That RDI alloy block never saw babbitt bearings in the cam tunnel and a 55mm core supported the profiles it ran and it never started without pressurising the oiling system first.

The System 1 reminds me of something IPCOlsen brought up. It is true, a liquid passing through a porous fabric media has an easier time on initial contact when the media is wet with the same liquid to begin with, than if the media is dry to begin with.

I also, wet the media in my upside down lawn mower filter before installing it. Just for that reason. Nothing runs out all over the place, when I install the filter, but the media is wet.

Back to the System 1, it has a metal mesh filter much like an Oberg. However, my System 1 filters have the shape and dimensions of an FL1A, where as the Oberg comes flat, rectangular, etc. The metal mesh filters don't seem to pose quite as much resistance to flow on initial contact with a fluid as the fabric filters do. Part of that may be, because the metal filter media is probably never or very rarely actually dry.

I found a crappy picture that shows the oil line I described as it comes from behind the headers and over the back of the engine. Now imagine the oil having to go through the filter and then up to the front of the block where the oil filter boss is located. Kind of reminds me of your description of that slant 6 set up.

image

The old Slant setup had a similar long run of plumbing...just not as pretty and no dry sump or 55 mm cam! Pulling the drive belt to pre oil would be ideal. I remember years ago making a poor mans accusump at a place I worked at to pre oil fresh engines before start...far from correct in today’s world of OHS but I used an old fire extinguisher , fitted a dash six fitting at the bottom to connect to the oil gallery and then applied regulated air pressure at the top, about 15 psi. Yes not perfect, yes risked aerating the oil if I ran it low but it worked.. and yes it was dangerous if some bozo put a full pressure of unregulated air into it.. I dis assembled it when I left for that reason. Here’s a memory for you Dave!
Not a 170but a big block 225!


Couldn’t help myself, rebuilt it using a longer 198 Slant rod to get rid of the old tin can pistons, runs 2.2 turbo Chrysler pistons with narrower ring packs. I don’t recall the thickness but a fraction of the originals..runs nice, must be the longer rods hahah
You can’t see the filter in the pic but it sits under number one exhaust runner , you can just make out a line and the oil pressure light sensor. I fire sleeved the line under the manifold to help exposure to heat..not sure if it helps but it’s a feel good thing . As for 55 mm cams, well, a LSM core sure would be sweet in an Arrow block

[Davehoos]

My last apprentice started filling oil filters as he was advised by experts at tech. we did a little test and found most of our fleet the oil drained back into the sump after 15 minutes. Some engines with filters on the side or hanging retained half or less. We did some oil pressure checks and found it fluctuated a bit when the engine was stabilising.

I had lways primed the filter on Leyland/rover V8. much easier with an older engine to lift out the distributor to set up the points and spin the oil pump with a drill. these are like other holden engines that are slow to pick up oil. pump is higher than the oil and not in the sump.

Had a small lawnmower diesel spun main brearing this year.. it was used for at least 6 months like that as it had full oil pressure due to the gallery being blocked and no bearing metal in the drained oil.
occasionally it was hard to start and leaked oil out the rear main seal. found nothing in the filter

[Davehoos]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Like this LHS one, inside, next to the air filters, yes same system, same truck different engine.

I think the idea was that they had more oil quantity so they didn't need as big an oil cooler.

[TICKFORD220]

Originally Posted by XByoot

The old Slant setup had a similar long run of plumbing...just not as pretty and no dry sump or 55 mm cam! Pulling the drive belt to pre oil would be ideal. I remember years ago making a poor mans accusump at a place I worked at to pre oil fresh engines before start...far from correct in today’s world of OHS but I used an old fire extinguisher , fitted a dash six fitting at the bottom to connect to the oil gallery and then applied regulated air pressure at the top, about 15 psi. Yes not perfect, yes risked aerating the oil if I ran it low but it worked.. and yes it was dangerous if some bozo put a full pressure of unregulated air into it.. I dis assembled it when I left for that reason. Here’s a memory for you Dave!
Not a 170but a big block 225!
image

Couldn’t help myself, rebuilt it using a longer 198 Slant rod to get rid of the old tin can pistons, runs 2.2 turbo Chrysler pistons with narrower ring packs. I don’t recall the thickness but a fraction of the originals..runs nice, must be the longer rods hahah
You can see the filter in the pic but it sits under number one exhaust runner , you can just make out a line and the oil pressure light sensor. I fire sleeved the line under the manifold to help exposure to heat..not sure if it helps but it’s a feel good thing .

That's an awesome looking motor.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

But if you pre-fill on the inlet side and the anti-drainback valve is working you should be able to invert the filter momentarily to screw it on without losing all that cold viscous oil. That's how we used to do it with the Rambler Rebel with the filter sitting inverted front and centre (slightly to the drivers side) but admittedly engine build tolerances were probably much less tight than now and oil much heavier and viscous back in the early 70's.

You really don't notice the death rattle in the newer mills , but in my Windsor if you put synthetic in it ....it rattles something terrible because of the build clearances (as aussiblue has said) same as Maka said if you don't fill the filter the sound of the crank rattling in the mains that sound is not nice

The same thing is happening in the modern engines you just don't hear it so much because of the better design and tighter tolerances

[aussiblue]

They are still pushing the Frantz toilet roll bypass filter system https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn5yLW7efK0 and http://www.frantzfilters.com/

[Tassie f100]

I seem to remember years ago some filter sales rep telling us that oil never wears out!so if it is always filtered properly it should never need changing,just replace filters regularly.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

I seem to remember years ago some filter sales rep telling us that oil never wears out!so if it is always filtered properly it should never need changing,just replace filters regularly.

What sort of Cigarettes was he smoking