Are high rise vehicles safe in built up areas?

[merlin]

Originally Posted by bladexr8

Yes, I won a 4WD. Why? Because I want to.
.

I want to win lotto, will I win it now? :yeees:

[Des]

Originally Posted by ltd

I think the point being raised is that currently these vehicles do not have the same taxes placed on them, and as such have become an incentive for people to buy them over any other normal car.

Additionally, they are classified as a commercial vehicle and as such do not attract any Fringe Benefits Tax, and again only serves to entice people to buy them over a normal car.

I have to agree with this post. The tax regime hits people movers but not "light truck" style 4x4's. It costs the same or more for a decent people mover than a "light truck" 4x4. What would you buy? Most people go for the best value option, more power, more room (including luggage) and generally better resale. Ford has done the right thing designing and introducing the Territory. The biggest problem comes when you find vehicles that come in both 4x4 and 4x2 but are almost identical in ride height etc.. This is why you need to qualify it as "light truck" vehicles, then you can include delivery vans and 2-3T pantech's etc. in any special licence training.
The crash incombatibility of differing vehicles will always be an issue unless every vehicle on the road were exactly the same (including how their maintained). This will never happen. My Falcon would punch a sizeable hole through any car in a side impact at speeds over 50 km/h. Should it be banned?

I should add here that I have no problems with 4x4's (legally modified or stock).

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by smoo

My BMW 5 series weighs 1.6t dry. With a tank of gas, and 4 people in, will be over 2 tonne (a trip to the tip with a trailer on the back was showing nearly 2.5t). Should I need a special licence to drive that too?

My Territory is 2.1 tonne ... plus car trailer ... plus rubbish = 3.8 tonne

But as I mentioned before ... someone can have a tiny box trailer ... and still can handle that.

Not really a new licence ... but definitely extra training is needed.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

I hope you're not serious. 4x4's drive alot differently than the standard sedan. There is a skill, this skill is laking from most 4x4 drivers.

You are obviously a great driver and very familiar with modern four wheel drives! NOT Yes all those Cayennes, Range Rovers, X5s i seen tipped on the footpaths around Toorak cos they couldnt handle putting around a suburban street. I seen skill lacking from most drivers, even Commodores and Falcons, in fact I even get held up by slow 2 wheel drive cars while i am driving my fourbie! What's up with that? These so called better handling, safer vehicles are not being demonstrated in any way. Now LTDHO, please tell us all how I should drive a 4x4, cos i have driven every car i have driven the same way, this will give me a good laugh - cos I seemed to handle both F250s on Saturday just fine thats about as big as they come, and i even accelerated much quicker than the other cars, and managed to turn the corner faster than the little buzz box next to me. Drove a new Navara the other day, same thing - so I am obviously doing something wrong here, cos i am not tipping them over and crashing them and running over children like i am supposed to be doing. That's it! It's because i dont have a specialized license instructing me to do so!

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

My Territory is 2.1 tonne ... plus car trailer ... plus rubbish = 3.8 tonne

But as I mentioned before ... someone can have a tiny box trailer ... and still can handle that.

Not really a new licence ... but definitely extra training is needed.

Was just pointing out the inconsistencies with the suggested anything over 2 tonne law a couple of pages ago.
But yes, as that saying goes, guns don't kill people, people do. Same sh1t different example here.

[AnthonyQLD]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

Depends how it is setup and used I guess.

Also depends where you live and where you work (Need to travel).
Also comes down to using it for a hobby as well.

Like most people lower cars and put bodykits on them ... and larger wheels, etc.

Both types of vehicles can be as equally as dangerous as each other ... it coems down to if the modification sare done properly/safely ... and then it comes down to the driver of the vehicle (moreso than anything else).

Quite a few friends of mine have "high-rise vehicles" (mucho money spent too) ... and they get used for their intended purposes ... but also get used in suburbia too. But they all know their vehicles aren't built for speed and cornering ... and their drive accordingly to be safe.

They can't afrd to drive like idiots in them ... cos of the amount of money that is spent on thier vehicles.

Thats true if the drivers are not drivng there 4WD like a sports car and no its limits they are no more dangerous than any other car

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

I hope you're not serious. 4x4's drive alot differently than the standard sedan. There is a skill, this skill is laking from most 4x4 drivers.

I agree.

Classic example; cornering.

Last weekend I had misfortune of being tailgated by an idiot in a Prado, he was trying to force me to go faster than 60 (the speed limit). I was in the left hand lane and had to turn, so I took the turn with out braking (quite safely) and I watched in the rear vision mirror os the driver of the Prado attempted the same thing; an interesting moment. The thing had massive understeer and I could see the drivers panicked face has he attempted to bring the Prado under control, he kept of my butt after that.

Some 4WD's are just trucks with car comforts and they need to be driven lioke trucks, maybe the manufacturer snould point this out.

[chevypower]

and a Falcon will never keep up with me in the Celica when going on the windy roads in the hills, ban them too hey! There are a lot of people who like pushing cars they dont own, that is true when car drivers get in a four wheel drive for their first time, it is them who like to tailgate a lot more than people who drive 4 wheel drives all the time. So let's ban those people from the roads! By the way, i have rented the latest 4L Prado, and i disagree with it's cornering capabilities you described - perhaps there are drivers out there who are just bleedin incompetant (more so than I realized) I never had to go slower than any other car that was doing the speed limit, i can promise you that, i even pushed it a little just for a bit of fun to see what it could do. I think there are just people who will hate 4x4s no matter what, they dont drive them to ever really know, and no matter what you tell them, they will only believe what they want to believe

[Des]

Shall I put it this way?
"Ban the idiots, not the vehicles!"

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by chevypower

and a Falcon will never keep up with me in the Celica when going on the windy roads in the hills, ban them too hey! There are a lot of people who like pushing cars they dont own, that is true when car drivers get in a four wheel drive for their first time, it is them who like to tailgate a lot more than people who drive 4 wheel drives all the time. So let's ban those people from the roads! By the way, i have rented the latest 4L Prado, and i disagree with it's cornering capabilities you described - perhaps there are drivers out there who are just bleedin incompetant (more so than I realized) I never had to go slower than any other car that was doing the speed limit, i can promise you that, i even pushed it a little just for a bit of fun to see what it could do. I think there are just people who will hate 4x4s no matter what, they dont drive them to ever really know, and no matter what you tell them, they will only believe what they want to believe

I took the corner at a safe speed that any sedan could have done, the Prado's centre of gravity & live axle suspension caused the vehicle to behave in a manner that the driver was not accustomed to.

WHEELS ACTIVE SAFETY PROGRAM...... dial-up UNfriendly shows the Prado coming 13 in a pack of 15 vehicles.
A van came last, but most people don't expect a van to handle like a car and so drive accordingly, hopefully people of truck based 4WD's do the same.

[herbs]

Originally Posted by Des

Shall I put it this way?
"Ban the idiots, not the vehicles!"

Amen to that

[chevypower]

i would agree it sounds like the driver not being accustomed to it, the vehicle can handle being "driven" if you get what I mean, but that's not because the vehicle is under-performing, more than likely just different to drive. Hey if somebody jumps in to a vehicle they are not comfortable with before they even get in it, then no matter how good the vehicle is, they are not going to feel comfortable about driving it for a while. One of the scariest things that happened to me was in an EF Falcon, driving along the wet windy road, the tail slid out and the car came to a halt across the middle of both lanes - it was my fault, i just got my license, the car had lousy grip and traction. People gotta take responsibility for themselves, I did. Having said that, i am also pointing out these cars such as the EF are not that great (Futura fitted with crappy tyres, no LSD and a live axle) I wouldnt expect the Prado to have done that in the same situation.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by Des

Shall I put it this way?
"Ban the idiots, not the vehicles!"

Best post in this thread ^

[Pilch]

Originally Posted by Des

Shall I put it this way?
"Ban the idiots, not the vehicles!"

fair enough. But then anyone here that's been out 4WD'n knows that the people that use a 4WD for their intended purpose are crazy idiot's :

[Falcon]

Do the 4wd owners tell you what to drive? Why should anyone have the right to tell someone what they should or shouldn't drive?

Mechan1k

I saw a case the other day at the Waste Management facility ... a guy with an X-trail and a tiny box trailer ... do you think he could reverse it on a 45 degree angle the 6 metres he need .... noooooooo ... it took him 20 minutes to do it. I nearly told the guy to get out of his vehicle and I'd reverse it for him.

How is he suposed to learn if he doesn't get out there and try it (oh, and box trailers are harder to control than large ones. I suposed u just jumped in a car and started reversing trailers like a pro? I doubt it! Maybe if he was given some advice, he would learn quicker! :

[LTDHO]

Originally Posted by chevypower

You are obviously a great driver and very familiar with modern four wheel drives! NOT Yes all those Cayennes, Range Rovers, X5s i seen tipped on the footpaths around Toorak cos they couldnt handle putting around a suburban street. I seen skill lacking from most drivers, even Commodores and Falcons, in fact I even get held up by slow 2 wheel drive cars while i am driving my fourbie! What's up with that? These so called better handling, safer vehicles are not being demonstrated in any way. Now LTDHO, please tell us all how I should drive a 4x4, cos i have driven every car i have driven the same way, this will give me a good laugh - cos I seemed to handle both F250s on Saturday just fine thats about as big as they come, and i even accelerated much quicker than the other cars, and managed to turn the corner faster than the little buzz box next to me. Drove a new Navara the other day, same thing - so I am obviously doing something wrong here, cos i am not tipping them over and crashing them and running over children like i am supposed to be doing. That's it! It's because i dont have a specialized license instructing me to do so!

Fortunately I drive a series of vehicles. Including new Hilux's and Patrols and a Patrol similar to the one in the pic! I am very familiar on how they accelerate, stop and steer. However my point isn’t based on this. More so the bulkiness. It appears that most large vehicle owners still drive like they are in a corolla or Laser.
In my experience I have seen many more 4x4’s roll than sedans. I blame both the vehicle and driver for this.
Also I see daily the 4x4 driver staying to close to the vehicle in front. I have to assume that is because the aluminium bull bar will protect the driver of the 4x4. As a winch can not be bolted to an aluminium bull bar, I fail to see a use for these.
I didn’t ever suggest that sedan drivers are better.

Originally Posted by chevypower

How to select reverse is different on a 4x4 to a 4x2?

Due to a massive blind spot behind the driver of a lifted 4x4, it is not as simple as selecting reverse. Extra care has to be taken.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m anti 4x4 as I drive one myself and go off road frequently.

I am however anti SUV. I classify SUV as any 4x4 that doesn’t go off road.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by pb02

I don't think it has anything to do with buying these vehicles to avoid paying more tax!

Are you also implying that unskilled people only buy 4x4's???? How about the unskilled people behind the wheel of high performance cars, buses, trucks, hell almost every taxi!!!

Your first point; absolutely. When these vehicles hit the shore here they attract less duty than normal sedans. Also, commercial vehicles in general have do not attract any FBT, so as either a company vehicle or a novated lease vehicle they are a sound choice. Especially when FBT rates can be up to 49% of the annual depreciated value of the vehicle.

I am not implying that unskilled people buy 4wd's at all. What I am implying is that these vehicles through design have a higher propensity to seriously injure people than a normal sedan due to their impact points being higher, as well as their centre of gravity being higher.

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by Falcon

Do the 4wd owners tell you what to drive? Why should anyone have the right to tell someone what they should or shouldn't drive?



How is he suposed to learn if he doesn't get out there and try it (oh, and box trailers are harder to control than large ones. I suposed u just jumped in a car and started reversing trailers like a pro? I doubt it! Maybe if he was given some advice, he would learn quicker! :

Doesn't take much ... and before I jumped in and started towing ... I watched others first ... and asked questions ... pretty simple stuff. Also tried it and tested it myself at home in the driveway before going out on the road with one connected.

I know box trailers can be harder to maneouvre than larger trailers .. some boat trailers can be a pain as well.

But for someone who looked like he had been driving for quite some time (guy was in his late-50s) ... I would have expected a better effort than that anyway.

[AnthonyQLD]

Originally Posted by Des

Shall I put it this way?
"Ban the idiots, not the vehicles!"

agree

[Kingsley]

I couldn't care less what people choose to own and modify, as long as it remains legal and they can drive the thing properly. Personally, I have absolutely no desire what-so-ever to own a 4wd of any description, but respect the rights of those who want to. I have quite a few friends who have modded 4wd's and they drive them responsibly, quite aware of their vehicles capabilities, in both modded and unmodded states. Most of them spend their weekends with clubs at organised events. The only exception to the rule is the idiot wife of one associate who has the worst mentality of any vehicle owner I've ever experienced. She honestly believes that because she has a larger vehicle ( heavily modded Landcruiser), she has the right to use both lanes as she see's fit, does not have slow or give way to anyone at roundabouts, has the right to sit up someones **** if she thinks they're going to slow or they just irritate her. Any speed below the speed limit is unacceptable and she needs at least 3 spots to park. The point is, the arrogant fat pig would have the same mentality in a Falcon or Commodore, following a Corolla. It's the attitiude of a few idiots like her, that give the rest a bad name.

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by ltd

Had a mate who was T boned by one of these troglodite morons who went through a red light.
There was a reason I said HAD a mate, as he is no longer with us thanks to some foll with an inferiority complex and a 2 inch pecker - requiring such an oversized vehicle.

Mate, get a clue. First off, your post is so full of stereotyping dribble it's not funny. If I ranted about saying you were obviously a hoon because you're on a Ford site and you only own a performance car to make up for a small dick and erection problems you'd tell me to **** off, and rightly so.

Secondly, the fact it was a 4WD had nothing to do with it. Sure they can be more dangerous in a side impact, but are you going to tell me a Falcon has never killed someone in a side impact? Mini Mokes are dangerous to motorbike riders, let's ban those.

And third, the guy RAN A RED LIGHT! Last time I checked, that's illegal. How can you possibly blame the 4WD for that? The driver was clearly to blame, what he was driving had nothing to do with it. If he flew through the red in an Excel would you be calling for a ban on them? Didn't think so.


Ban low performace drivers, not high performance cars. That phrase gets thrown around a lot here when ACA or Today Tonight kick up a fuss. Yet everyone is quick to bash 4WDs, stereotype the owners and ignore the real cause of the problems. You're all no better than the 80 year old Volvo driving whingers who call Neil Mitchell up every morning to about hoons.

[tex]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

Mate, get a clue. First off, your post is so full of stereotyping dribble it's not funny. If I ranted about saying you were obviously a hoon because you're on a Ford site and you only own a performance car to make up for a small dick and erection problems you'd tell me to **** off, and rightly so.

Secondly, the fact it was a 4WD had nothing to do with it. Sure they can be more dangerous in a side impact, but are you going to tell me a Falcon has never killed someone in a side impact? Mini Mokes are dangerous to motorbike riders, let's ban those.

And third, the guy RAN A RED LIGHT! Last time I checked, that's illegal. How can you possibly blame the 4WD for that? The driver was clearly to blame, what he was driving had nothing to do with it. If he flew through the red in an Excel would you be calling for a ban on them? Didn't think so.


Ban low performace drivers, not high performance cars. That phrase gets thrown around a lot here when ACA or Today Tonight kick up a fuss. Yet everyone is quick to bash 4WDs, stereotype the owners and ignore the real cause of the problems. You're all no better than the 80 year old Volvo driving whingers who call Neil Mitchell up every morning to about hoons.

Pretty harsh mad chicken, I reckon this argument has gone on for TOO long.
(I do agree with u by the way !)

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Should these things be allowed in built up areas, such as cities & suburbs?

I think it's comical that a Territory owner should post this. It's a wonder that all the people with lowered cars dont complain about the height of a Territory's bumpers

As for the question, anything is safe in the city if driven properly.

[nang3]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

Mate, get a clue. First off, your post is so full of stereotyping dribble it's not funny. If I ranted about saying you were obviously a hoon because you're on a Ford site and you only own a performance car to make up for a small dick and erection problems you'd tell me to **** off, and rightly so.

Secondly, the fact it was a 4WD had nothing to do with it. Sure they can be more dangerous in a side impact, but are you going to tell me a Falcon has never killed someone in a side impact? Mini Mokes are dangerous to motorbike riders, let's ban those.

And third, the guy RAN A RED LIGHT! Last time I checked, that's illegal. How can you possibly blame the 4WD for that? The driver was clearly to blame, what he was driving had nothing to do with it. If he flew through the red in an Excel would you be calling for a ban on them? Didn't think so.


Ban low performace drivers, not high performance cars. That phrase gets thrown around a lot here when ACA or Today Tonight kick up a fuss. Yet everyone is quick to bash 4WDs, stereotype the owners and ignore the real cause of the problems. You're all no better than the 80 year old Volvo driving whingers who call Neil Mitchell up every morning to about hoons.

I agree..

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

Mate, get a clue. First off, your post is so full of stereotyping dribble it's not funny. If I ranted about saying you were obviously a hoon because you're on a Ford site and you only own a performance car to make up for a small dick and erection problems you'd tell me to **** off, and rightly so.

Secondly, the fact it was a 4WD had nothing to do with it. Sure they can be more dangerous in a side impact, but are you going to tell me a Falcon has never killed someone in a side impact? Mini Mokes are dangerous to motorbike riders, let's ban those.

And third, the guy RAN A RED LIGHT! Last time I checked, that's illegal. How can you possibly blame the 4WD for that? The driver was clearly to blame, what he was driving had nothing to do with it. If he flew through the red in an Excel would you be calling for a ban on them? Didn't think so.


Ban low performace drivers, not high performance cars. That phrase gets thrown around a lot here when ACA or Today Tonight kick up a fuss. Yet everyone is quick to bash 4WDs, stereotype the owners and ignore the real cause of the problems. You're all no better than the 80 year old Volvo driving whingers who call Neil Mitchell up every morning to about hoons.

First off, I don't own a high performance car. Secondly, you do not know what I do mate so you might not want to be so dismissive of the information and experience I have.
Thirdly, if you naively believe that 4wd vehicles are no more dangerous than a normal sedan then you have typified the very problems that the rest of us motorists face.

Your arguement about how vehicles perform in an impact is so flawed that quite frankly everyone who has read your post is now dumber for having done so. It is this type of unadulterated ignorance that has made the 4wd issue such a big problem in the first place.

As for getting a clue mate, I put it to you that I have a clue and in fact you don't; by the fact that you obviously have no concept of different types of vehicle construction and the resultant concentration of forces, let alone the actual metallurgy of the materials used and their respective tensile strength.
If you would like a clue, perhaps you could spend a night with the local fire brigade and attend some accidents involving 4wd. Or better yet, perhaps you can check with the bureau of statistics and check what average percentage of either sedans or 4wd's have caused the most fatalities. Simply burying ones head in the sand does not make the problem go away, and denial that a problem exists is just fanciful.

[Biggoggs]

There's a natural element of Darwinism in action on the roads, take a look at the U.S.. People figured out ten/twenty years ago, that the bigger the car, the safer their kids would be, so manufacturers built bigger and heavier cars and people bought them. And because everyone had a big SUV, you needed a bigger one to keep your kids safe, snowballing into what it is today.

As for raised 4x4s, if people want to go offroad --- or simply want to look like they do --- it's their own prerogative. If you're worried about your own vehicle's safety, get Ford to reinforce the Falcon.
As for a seperate license, the dynamics of your driver instructor's car was probably different than your first car anyway. The last thing we need is a family car license, a SUV license, a sportscar license, a Skyline/WRX license, a small-car license, a ute license, etc. They all handle differently, but not car vs. plane/boat/helicopter different.

Besides, Falcon vs. Raised Hilux = one Hilux with a wheel torn off (or at least bent) and it's passengers' head through the side windows after its subsequent roll-over.

Car parks are the worst places, as the spots are too narrow which causes pain chips when they open their doors.

[4.0i_SiX]

I stick by my motto - Take it offroad or take it OFF the road.

Im a regular 4x4er and plan on building a short wheel base Nissan patrol with a sensible sized lift kit. This will NOT be used as a daily driver and only ever be driven on the tarmac when absolutely necessary.

The danger is NOT the height of the vehicle AT ALL. Someone who drives a 4x4 like that, KNOWS how to drive it. Its the soccor mums in big arsed Landcruisers who cant see over the dashboard who are dangerous!!!

[4.0i_SiX]

I have answered below, have a read ;)

Originally Posted by stockel

This is possibly another argument altogether but...

Why would you need to increase the ride hieght that much??

1) approach/departure angles:
Surely the approach/departure angles aren't that bad on this 4wd from factory? (know nothing about toyotas). In my experience (Jackaroo, Pajero, range rover, defender etc) the factory approach and departure angles were suffiecent however this is obviously a piontless argument as it depends on the condition of the track you are on!

You'd be surprised how easily a stock 4wd can get hooked up on a rut

2) clearance:
At the end of the day aren't the diffs and axles etc still the same height off the deck as before the mods?

No, to lift the Diff centre you need larger rims/tyres, in order for these to fit without hitting the body/suspension, it needs to be lifted

Also the probability of rollover would be hugely increased after the mods.

True

I think that unless I am missing something these huge height increases overall are more for look at me purposes than anything else (Happy to hear thoughts on this!)!
It would be interesting to hear some serious 4wd peoples (don't know how we qualify this lol!!) oppinion on this - I'M SURE I WILL!!!!

:

[4.0i_SiX]

Originally Posted by turboute

The real test of this question is :
you have 2 drivers A & B
Driver A is in a std falcodore sedan sedan and Driver B is in huge *** 4WD skysraper
upon approaching an intersection the driver sneezes - please note that sneezing is an uncontrolable bodily function and every part of you body including your heart momentarily stops. Also it is one of the few excuses that you may be able to get away with in court for causing an accident.

This stops them from being able to stop before the intersection and they both hit a car. Who do you think is going to do less damage? Irrespective of driver skill the 4WD will probably kill someone, due to the bull bar going straight through the window and missing all the side impact protection. Also it's larger mass means that It will take much more energy to stop it - ie it will go through the car while the average sedan will stop much closer to the initial point of impact.

and..what about the driver of a bus or semi trailor?