vFacts October 2019

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

This video shows why Ford got it wrong with the 2.0 Ranger.

Yes I know this is not what they are built for, and not what they are designed for, but I think a lot of you know where I am coming from.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz_twBApgZY

"Poor thing"......

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

This video shows why Ford got it wrong with the 2.0 Ranger.

Yes I know this is not what they are built for, and not what they are designed for, but I think a lot of you know where I am coming from.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz_twBApgZY

Thats the problem is thats the type of driving you use every day on the road, at least I do anyway

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

What, it holds its torque longer and has more power....over 3250rpm, who consistently rev's a diesel past 3250rpm?

I drive diesel vehicles everyday and never take them much past 2500rpm because between 1200 and there is where they do their work.
If you look at that chart, both come on at 1250, the 2.0l peaks at 2000 and drops off whereas the 3.2l holds its torque until 2500 where they align again.
Its only the initial rush and extra 50nm in that short 1750-2000rpm range where the bi-turbo has any consistently usable advantage.

The key is that the smaller engine is never below the output of the larger one,
when it's not towing the smaller engine gives generally better fuel economy.
The main draw back of the smaller engine is less engine braking, that can be a big deal.

The gains in the actual real world usable range are next to nothing and it uses just as much fuel to achieve it as stated by Simon.

As I said, its probably a great driveline for many applications, and is more refined, but its not the be all and end all that has been pushed by certain people.

The big issue with the older Pumas is tighter emissions, the new 2.0 is a better mouse trap.
but, what's being sold to the people here is not the end of the story, it's another get through
as the Ranger was never designed to accept a V engine, the next T6 architecture does.

I think Cyberwasps link gives a much better real world indication of its abilities than your dyno chart and it got its **** handed to it in every aspect.

So if Ford offered, say a TT V6 Ecoboost, all would be forgiven?
This is the area Ford is working on and Cyberwasp probably already
knows that as I suspect that he has intel on the T6 Project from over
at the other place.

Still waiting for the 200 Kw Amarok to make a sales splash or the BMW/Nissan thing..

Of More concern was the F150 Raptor's lack of brakes, if that's typical
of large US Pick Ups then don't ever get in front of them, they might
just run you over at the lights..

[jpd80]

There was also some very good late work done by AVL on the 3.2l
that kept it in the game with emissions....a bit like the Falcon I-6.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

What Ford didn't expect was the major backlash to Ranger Raptor, the regular Ranger
buyers gladly accepted the new more efficient two litre diesel. There's still a big market
there that Ford can capitalise on with larger more powerful engines, Gen two T6 brings
a lot of changes and seems to be now accepting that Aussie buyers like capacity, those
six cylinder engines... that's a big win and why I have a lot of confidence that Ford has
turned a corner, not that we will see it until new products arrive.

The "backlash" was a load of garbage though, as they had to increase Raptor production due to demand. Buyers had no issue, just internet tossers who wouldn't buy one anyway. Not to say a bigger petrol engine wouldn't have been better, even the engineers were saying it deserved one, just that buyers weren't bothered by it, and if it was a fuel guzzler they probably wouldn't have bought it anyway. Toyota proved petrol V6's and V8's in big off roaders is a dead end here, by dropping Hilux V6 and Landcruiser petrol V8. As the manufacturers keep saying, and sales figures prove, is that we are a diesel market here when it comes to large SUV's/utes.

I think Amarok V6's high take up rate would have got some attention too.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

What, it holds its torque longer and has more power....over 3250rpm, who consistently rev's a diesel past 3250rpm?

I drive diesel vehicles everyday and never take them much past 2500rpm because between 1200 and there is where they do their work.
If you look at that chart, both come on at 1250, the 2.0l peaks at 2000 and drops off whereas the 3.2l holds its torque until 2500 where they align again.
Its only the initial rush and extra 50nm in that short 1750-2000rpm range where the bi-turbo has any consistently usable advantage.

The gains in the actual real world usable range are next to nothing and it uses just as much fuel to achieve it as stated by Simon.

As I said, its probably a great driveline for many applications, and is more refined, but its not the be all and end all that has been pushed by certain people.

I think Cyberwasps link gives a much better real world indication of its abilities than your dyno chart and it got its **** handed to it in every aspect.

Aren't the utes in the video more powerful regardless of what engine the Ranger has...I think we need to keep in mind the 2.0L was developed to meet future regs and provide a base engine to replace the 3.2L which eventually has to be dropped just on emmisions compliance. By the time it's dropped we get "other engines" to sit above the 2.0L Ecoblue.

Edit: In fact in the UK Edge ST-line a version of this 2.0L has 177kW/500Nm..maybe that should have been the Raptors engine until it can fit a V6. Edge St-Line's 0-100 is 1.6 secs faster in AWD form over the fwd 100Kg lighter Edge regular 2.0L diesel.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The "backlash" was a load of garbage though, as they had to increase Raptor production due to demand. Buyers had no issue, just internet tossers who wouldn't buy one anyway.

There was actually a shortage of wheels and Bridgestone tyres for RR and ours were reallocated away from other markets and they got replacement tyres.

Not to say a bigger petrol engine wouldn't have been better, even the engineers were saying it deserved one, just that buyers weren't bothered by it, and if it was a fuel guzzler they probably wouldn't have bought it anyway.

Slow down,
the product offered with baby diesel had a good reception from those that wanted to buy it
but equally, a second power train would have increased sales as well.

That experience has galvanized Ford into realising that it's only catering for one side of the market...

Toyota proved petrol V6's and V8's in big off roaders is a dead end here, by dropping Hilux V6 and Landcruiser petrol V8. As the manufacturers keep saying, and sales figures prove, is that we are a diesel market here when it comes to large SUV's/utes.

I actually hope Toyota thinks that, I really do because it will open up the field
completely for Ford, now that next gen Colorado platform has been cancelled.
The only other contenders are all those seriously over priced Full sized Pick Ups
that HSV and Walkinshaw are busy converting...
The Harrop V8 conversion for Colorado nearly doubles the price of the vehicle
it too will be toast in a couple of years...

I think Amarok V6's high take up rate would have got some attention too.

The problem was that Amarok fizzed and wan't the force that people expected.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Aren't the utes in the video more powerful regardless of what engine the Ranger has...I think we need to keep in mind the 2.0L was developed to meet future regs and provide a base engine to replace the 3.2L which eventually has to be dropped just on emmisions compliance. By the time it's dropped we get "other engines" to sit above the 2.0L Ecoblue.

A lot of conjecture here but I'm thinking V6 diesel and V6 Ecoboost,
Ford will go so far with performance and then let the aftermarket take over.

Edit: In fact in the UK Edge ST-line a version of this 2.0L has 177kW/500Nm..maybe that should have been the Raptors engine until it can fit a V6. Edge St-Line's 0-100 is 1.6 secs faster in AWD form over the fwd 100Kg lighter Edge regular 2.0L diesel.

Two possibilities with that tune,
A. Developed to use higher centane diesel available in Europe
B. RR has a "safe tune" that covers a wider variance in diesel quality.

Aftermarket now has a better tune for the 2.0L diesel.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by jpd80

A lot of conjecture here but I'm thinking V6 diesel and V6 Ecoboost,
Ford will go so far with performance and then let the aftermarket take over.



Two possibilities with that tune,
A. Developed to use higher centane diesel available in Europe
B. RR has a "safe tune" that covers a wider variance in diesel quality.

Aftermarket now has a better tune for the 2.0L diesel.

Don't get me started on fuel quality..the government should grow some and tell the oil companies what they need to do to stay selling in Australia...just once let the government dictate what has to be what and if the fuel companies are not interested let them know that if they don't want to comply the refineries will be nationalised.

[PG2]

I'll leave this thread open for the moment - I don't want to wreck it for everyone for the sake of a few.

I'll make it very clear though, the next person that makes an unnecessary comment about someone's car will be having a little break from AFF. We are all car enthusiasts at the end of the day and I find it the height of rudeness when someone bags someone else's car for no apparent reason.

[au2000]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The "backlash" was a load of garbage though, as they had to increase Raptor production due to demand. Buyers had no issue, just internet tossers who wouldn't buy one anyway.

To be fair, there's been a equal amount of those "internet tossers" as you call them that also have no intention of buying it but will praise it and everything else no matter what.

Just because people have opposing opinions, does not make their views wrong

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by au2000

To be fair, there's been a equal amount of those "internet tossers" as you call them that also have no intention of buying it but will praise it and everything else no matter what.

Just because people have opposing opinions, does not make their views wrong

Agreed, some people might only have a ****ty Kia and a secondhand Territory, others might have a ****ty Hyundai and a secondhand G6E and neither may ever own a Ranger, but they can have opposing views, doesn't make either wrong as opinions are like arseholes..

[jpd80]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but how do we sift true reality from a sea
of observation and believed facts. Some opinions may be well informed, based
on what products are planned for the future but details still to be confirmed,
while other opinions are based on what was fact twenty years ago in certain
locations, buyers back then would have preferred cars and scoffed at the idea
of Holden going out backwards. Other opinions are based on fairy tales told on
the internet of products guaranteed to local companies that never materialise.

The issue becomes when those opinions are dressed as facts and I am guilty
of this as much as the next. I see so much potential for improvement but,
for that to actually happen, buyers must equally be open to change.

IMO, "Ted Bullpitt" and his extended family have now turned their backs on Holden
and now buy "Hyundai/Kia", not because they are dodgey or cheap but quite the opposite.
Ted and his family has discovered VALUE, the bang for bucks they used to get at Holden
is now being offered by budget import brands, they are now good quality and lower priced
than the once vaunted Japanese car brands.

and this is why I believe that in the next two to five years, Hyundai/Kia will make big
gains against Japanese brands like Mazda, Toyota, Mitsubishi and Honda. All those
compact and sub compact cars and SUVs are up for grabs but then they will go after
the more expensive mid sized SUVs and Utes...

[Syndrome]

I can't see the Kerrigans saying "Oh Steve, could you move the Excel? I need to get the Elantra out so I can get to the Sonata.”

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

I can't see the Kerrigans saying "Oh Steve, could you move the Excel? I need to get the Elantra out so I can get to the Sonata.”

"Hey Dad, New Commodore for ....."

"Tell him he's dreaming..."

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

I can't see the Kerrigans saying "Oh Steve, could you move the Excel? I need to get the Elantra out so I can get to the Sonata.”

maybe the perfect note to move on and wait until next months vfacts......

...on a side note I'm organising a test drive of the new Transit Custom Sport DciV..black with stripes..136kW of van ...now this should get Transit numbers up and closer to Toyota...

[CyberWasp]

The Transit Custom is a Sleeper in the Ford range and has potential to steal a lot of sales off the opposition I thinks.

[Franco Cozzo]

Let us know how that test drive goes, that looks mint

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

image
maybe the perfect note to move on and wait until next months vfacts......

...on a side note I'm organising a test drive of the new Transit Custom Sport DciV..black with stripes..136kW of van ...now this should get Transit numbers up and closer to Toyota...

Time for Ford to do a Supervan 4

[Sprintey]

I know it's the other marque, but since we're going back to those daggy sticker pack black vans of the early 1980s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn5gY7LK8Mc

Look at the superior handling in this clip (nice model too):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Eu3voRnkJM

[bigwil]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

image
maybe the perfect note to move on and wait until next months vfacts......

...on a side note I'm organising a test drive of the new Transit Custom Sport DciV..black with stripes..136kW of van ...now this should get Transit numbers up and closer to Toyota...

The A-Team your new van is ready

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

This video shows why Ford got it wrong with the 2.0 Ranger.

Yes I know this is not what they are built for, and not what they are designed for, but I think a lot of you know where I am coming from.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz_twBApgZY

*Digs out auto history books*
It's with some satisfaction I see a 1971 XY 250 2V would also dust the Raptor on the 1/4 mile.

[au2000]

Originally Posted by jpd80

IMO, "Ted Bullpitt" and his extended family have now turned their backs on Holden
and now buy "Hyundai/Kia", not because they are dodgey or cheap but quite the opposite.
Ted and his family has discovered VALUE, the bang for bucks they used to get at Holden
is now being offered by budget import brands, they are now good quality and lower priced
than the once vaunted Japanese car brands.
.

Absolutely, I think this applies to gm and ford, the only difference between them is that most of ford's products are quite good, just need buyers to decide if they are willing to pay the $$$ ford wants where as Holden is edging closer to the brink of oblivion with no real quality. Son's gf just picked up a demo Astra for basically new yaris money, just shows if ur after a cheap newish car they are out there.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by au2000

Absolutely, I think this applies to gm and ford, the only difference between them is that most of ford's products are quite good, just need buyers to decide if they are willing to pay the $$$ ford wants where as Holden is edging closer to the brink of oblivion with no real quality. Son's gf just picked up a demo Astra for basically new yaris money, just shows if ur after a cheap newish car they are out there.

Watching Ford trying to sell Focus and Escape is like watching doctor Kevorkian fish...
it looks like a sales strategy developed by a corporate accountant who has no idea that
real people actually object to being over charged for products they would otherwise buy.

Holden's problem is a much simpler one of optics, it's an Aussie icon without any Aussie products.
Most of it's former buyers have voted with their wallets and sadly, judgement day is coming.
GM effectivly killed the brand and all the easy high value sales generated from it's small
local manufacturing base.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

GM effectivly killed the brand and all the easy high value sales generated from it's small
local manufacturing base.

So you're saying with certainty that Holden could have continued making cars in Elizabeth if only it and Toyota remained?

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by jpd80

You do realise that Bronco is being developed in two door and four door models....

No I didn't, actually found very little info on it. But Broncos of the past were characteristically all 2 doors

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Time for Ford to do a Supervan 4

The Ford GT's Ecoboost V6 would tie in with the first Supervan having a GT40 engine.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

and this is why I believe that in the next two to five years, Hyundai/Kia will make big
gains against Japanese brands like Mazda, Toyota, Mitsubishi and Honda. All those
compact and sub compact cars and SUVs are up for grabs but then they will go after
the more expensive mid sized SUVs and Utes...

Mazda moved the price of the 3 up considerably, along the lines of Focus. And it's sales have dropped off. I think last month it was outside the top 10, when it used to be top 3 or 4. It's entry point is now around 24k. Either price is the sticking point, or people hate the look of the weird rear quarters on the hatch. I know I do.

Corolla and others have moved up to the area north of 23k as well. Manufacturers are starting to look at profits over numbers. Kia admitted they will not be making profit on passenger cars come 2021, so I recon you will see them move up as well. They might be happy to try to steal market share with minimal profits now, and then go up and hope buyers stay later? Or they may be happy to go no profit on passenger cars, and try to make money back on SUV's?

I'd think they will have too, as South Korea is not a cheap country to manufacture in. From what I recall their auto workers are on similar money to ours. Not like Thailand or China.

[russellw]

October graphical stats are up now.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

No I didn't, actually found very little info on it. But Broncos of the past were characteristically all 2 doors

You won't but it's about the same length as Everest.