Should volunteer firefighters get paid?

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Might be able to wrangle the front cover of Time magazine though - its been graced by Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin, according to Twitter I fit in there somewhere

Russ, can we have a name change here to Adolf Stalin jnr please

[roddy1960]

Ah...A minimum of four weeks pay if I heard it right on the news last night . I think it might even be a bi partisan decision too...Imagine that ..

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by snap0964

You guys might need to settle for an Ahn Do mural on the side of Flinders st station - maybe something like this ?

image

I've already got a mural in Footscray

[snap0964]

Yep, I should've known - The Godfather Part IV.

[snap0964]

Actually, that's not a day release bracelet on the left wrist?

[MITCHAY]

Maybe we are starting to see some sense coming out.

Volunteers doing a couple of days here and there, maybe a week or two is one thing but when they are doing a full time load like they have been doing, they should be paid. I think that is fair.

The only real debate left is where that line is and what it will cost.

Some are saying that with more volunteers we could cover the surge but the NSWRFS have supposedly 70k+ members which should do it many times over so why are we having this problem even with the holidays considered?

[Franco Cozzo]

The RFS with the 70K members - is it one of those typical top heavy corporate structures where its got about 100 blokes doing the physical work with 69,900 'admin' staff to do administration paper shuffling for the administration assistant for the administration assistant for the administration assistant for the administration asistant's assistant?

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The RFS with the 70K members - is it one of those typical top heavy corporate structures where its got about 100 blokes doing the physical work with 69,900 'admin' staff to do administration paper shuffling for the administration assistant for the administration assistant for the administration assistant for the administration asistant's assistant?

Lol no way near mate and even the worse government in Australia isn't that bad. But I will give thumbs up for the play on how top heavy things can be.

I often joke we have more people who are only busy because they are busy telling everyone they are busy.

They never seem to understand that the grunts would just get the job done fine without them

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I don't really think we need more incentive to volunteer but this is going beyond giving up a bit of time.

I was just reading an article yesterday where they supposedly have hundreds on the waiting list around here. In fact I looked around the local brigades and some are wanting people and others are saying to put yourself on a wait list.

Don’t believe everything you read, the actual volunteer numbers are falling at alarming rates, some brigades close their books but that’s for various reasons, most will be turning people away at the moment because quite simply they don’t have the time to process the paper work and inductions to get them rolling.

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I get your point but I'd highly doubt anyone would volunteer for fire fighting of all things just to tick some boxes. Much less extreme avenues to go for that.

It happens, the brigade I’m a part of has had some go through as part of the duke of Ed program

Most have hung around, some have changed brigades as they’ve moved address but are still very active.

It’s not uncommon for a lag once they finish school and then they get back into it once things settle down again.

My young bloke did it for his Duke of Ed did a hand full of calls, (car fires, Grass fires and the likes) then his HSC and girls sort of got in the way, he finished the HSC this year and I was surprised when he asked if he could get on a truck

No prouder moment in an of RFS guys life than seeing his 18yo son walk out to his first strike team

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Maybe we are starting to see some sense coming out.

Volunteers doing a couple of days here and there, maybe a week or two is one thing but when they are doing a full time load like they have been doing, they should be paid. I think that is fair.

The only real debate left is where that line is and what it will cost.

Some are saying that with more volunteers we could cover the surge but the NSWRFS have supposedly 70k+ members which should do it many times over so why are we having this problem even with the holidays considered?

A number of things here these fires have been going on for some time, my father in-law (retired but the fittest 65yo you ever met) has been working on fires around the state since September (I think) like a FIFO worker, he’d fly out Sunday for Tenterfield or so where and be back the following Saturday then do it all again the following Sunday. These guys are getting tired

Also Most RFS brigades on the urban interface do call rates in the hubdreds that’s more than aa few permo stations

Yeah there’s 70k volunteers, but they aren’t all fire fighters, they’re made up of coms training catering etc and some can’t give time like others. Also keep in mind the bulk of people work mon - guys that can are struggling.

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

The RFS with the 70K members - is it one of those typical top heavy corporate structures where its got about 100 blokes doing the physical work with 69,900 'admin' staff to do administration paper shuffling for the administration assistant for the administration assistant for the administration assistant for the administration asistant's assistant?

Yeah ok, what ever, let me find something you do and your proud of so I can pick at it with absolutely no knowledge of how it works.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

It happens, the brigade I’m a part of has had some go through as part of the duke of Ed program

Most have hung around, some have changed brigades as they’ve moved address but are still very active.

My young bloke did it for his Duke of Ed did a hand full of calls, (car fires, Grass fires and the likes) then his HSC and girls sort of got in the way, he finished the HSC this year and I was surprised when he asked if he could get on a truck

No prouder moment in an of RFS guys life than seeing his 18yo son walk out to his first strike team

.

Heading out towards a fire front would be nothing I could ever imagine myself or anyone would want to do.

You guys are absolute heroes in my opinion.

[MITCHAY]

Thanks mate for giving some perspective to the discussion.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

Yeah ok, what ever, let me find something you do and your proud of so I can pick at it with absolutely no knowledge of how it works.

I work in 'sales', while I don't know firefighting, I have a good grasp on psychology, propaganda, politics, crowd behavior and how to emotionally manipulate people to get them to do things that I want them to do.

Which is EXACTLY what you are responding to at the moment

[The Yeti]

[QUOTE=Franco Cozzo;6381803]I decide not to argue with an idiot

[marty351]

Just heard that NSW volunteers to get $6g for more than 10 days active service.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by marty351

Just heard that NSW volunteers to get $6g for more than 10 days active service.

It’s UP to and there will be lots of hoops

Back when Keating did it you had to prove a heap before you could lodge a claim

Don’t get me wrong it’s a good thing, but don’t think for a second it’s 6k for 10days work

Not every fire fighter who’s done more than 10 days will get it and very g32 will get the full 6k

[Cav]

[QUOTE=The Yeti;6381890]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I decide not to argue with an idiot

Name calling to win an argument is an admission that you have lost the argument.


I read that somewhere.


I think it was Franco's cousin, some bloke called Socrates


When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.


Definition of Slander:


A false spoken statement about someone that damages their reputation, or the making of such a statement.

Hey wait a minute, it all depends on whether calling Franco an idiot is a false statement or not. It begs the question: Is Franco an idiot?


Maybe we should take a poll?


How about we ask an expert: Hey Franco, are you an idiot?

[Syndrome]

If they get paid they can no longer be called volunteers.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

If they get paid they can no longer be called volunteers.

It’s not pay it’s essentilly some money as compensation to keep the wolf from the door

If you would work at least 2 weeks with no guarantee of money to pay your rent or mortgage, or feed your family good for you

Basically you need to have done 10 days to get up to $300 a day

These days are AT LEAST 12hr days but usually closer to 16hrs and a few I did (I’m paid so it doesn’t count) we’re 19hrs, put that in to ah hourly rate and it’s minimum wage.

And if these men and women didn’t a lot of our ***** would be singed
Even in the safe suburbs

[The Yeti]

[QUOTE=Cav;6382065]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

Name calling to win an argument is an admission that you have lost the argument.


I read that somewhere.


I think it was Franco's cousin, some bloke called Socrates


When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.




Definition of Slander:


A false spoken statement about someone that damages their reputation, or the making of such a statement.

Hey wait a minute, it all depends on whether calling Franco an idiot is a false statement or not. It begs the question: Is Franco an idiot?


Maybe we should take a poll?


How about we ask an expert: Hey Franco, are you an idiot?

Mate if I carried on about something you are proud of like Francis did to me you’d be pretty dirty. I feel justified in my response

Personaly I have nothing but respect for you and your service to the country.

And I don’t think it’s to difficult for others to be respectful

If he had any knowledge of the subject it would be a debate

As he doesn’t, .....

[Cav]

Just lighten up mate ;-)


Life's too short.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by Cav

Just lighten up mate ;-)


Life's too short.

Life is too short,

Too short to be disrespected

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

Mate if I carried on about something you are proud of like Francis did to me you’d be pretty dirty. I feel justified in my response

Personaly I have nothing but respect for you and your service to the country.

And I don’t think it’s to difficult for others to be respectful

If he had any knowledge of the subject it would be a debate

As he doesn’t, .....

Remember a bloke called Alan Turing? He was an English man who is credited as being the father of theoretical computer science and artificial intelligence, he invented a device called the 'Turing machine' which helped do calculations to figure out the settings used for the German 'Enigma' code machine during WWII.

His work and that of his team is credited to have potentially ended the European theater of war two years early, saving an estimated 14 million lives.

They refused to recognise his work, treated him as an outcast, they prosecuted him under an amendment dating back to 1885, he agreed to being chemically castrated, leading to him soon after ending his own life - because of his homosexuality.

The UK Government finally apologised to him 55 years after his suicide, only following a large internet campaign putting pressure on the government, then another decade on from the apology, they've decided to put him on the new 50 pound note this year.

If there was a man deserving of respect for his contributions to global society, its Alan Turing - yet he was treated horribly because of what he did in his private life.

The irony is about you claiming respect about that beautiful man Cav is that Vietnam war veterans were treated like **** when they arrived back in country after being forced into service by the Government, taunted for being 'baby killers', had things thrown at them, the RSL wouldn't even have a bar of them.

I don't believe I've actually personally attacked you in this thread, I've made remarks about my thoughts on potential legal issues with volunteer firefighters being paid and reasons for the ADF why they may not be involved further, then a sarcastic post about the organisational structure of the RFS, in which you chose to take offense to, then wanted to know what I do so you can pick it apart, in which I've told you.

Secondly, I'm a believer in that respect is earned, rather than given - I'm not going to lay on praise because you choose to volunteer your time fighting bush fires, good work you contribute to your local community, pat on the back.

Deserving of my respect? In my eyes, no and even less so because you go around demanding to be respected for something you volunteer for, then you've tried to turn this about you being personally attacked.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Remember a bloke called Alan Turing? He was an English man who is credited as being the father of theoretical computer science and artificial intelligence, he invented a device called the 'Turing machine' which helped do calculations to figure out the settings used for the German 'Enigma' code machine during WWII.

His work and that of his team is credited to have potentially ended the European theater of war two years early, saving an estimated 14 million lives.

They refused to recognise his work, treated him as an outcast, they prosecuted him under an amendment dating back to 1885, he agreed to being chemically castrated, leading to him soon after ending his own life - because of his homosexuality.

The UK Government finally apologised to him 55 years after his suicide, only following a large internet campaign putting pressure on the government, then another decade on from the apology, they've decided to put him on the new 50 pound note this year.

If there was a man deserving of respect for his contributions to global society, its Alan Turing - yet he was treated horribly because of what he did in his private life.

The irony is about you claiming respect about that beautiful man Cav is that Vietnam war veterans were treated like **** when they arrived back in country after being forced into service by the Government, taunted for being 'baby killers', had things thrown at them, the RSL wouldn't even have a bar of them.

I don't believe I've actually personally attacked you in this thread, I've made remarks about my thoughts on potential legal issues with volunteer firefighters being paid and reasons for the ADF why they may not be involved further, then a sarcastic post about the organisational structure of the RFS, in which you chose to take offense to, then wanted to know what I do so you can pick it apart, in which I've told you.

Secondly, I'm a believer in that respect is earned, rather than given - I'm not going to lay on praise because you choose to volunteer your time fighting bush fires, good work you contribute to your local community, pat on the back.

Deserving of my respect? In my eyes, no and even less so because you go around demanding to be respected for something you volunteer for, then you've tried to turn this about you being personally attacked.

Yes well all that is very good Franco, but as John McEnroe would say nice and loud on the tennis court, "Answer my question!"





Are you an idiot?

[mcflux]

I'm a volunteer firey (Vic CFA)

Luckily my employer (a 'large business') offers paid leave for emergency services activities.

Sometimes I attend fires on days I'm rostered on, and take paid leave. This is a luxury many do not have. Mind you I might get a day's pay but put in 20hrs on the fireground.

Sometimes I attend fires on days I'm not rostered on (ie unpaid).

Sometimes I cannot respond to a callout as I am rostered on and work cannot replace me on that particular shift (essential service, govt act trumps me here).

The $300/day up-to $6k govt/employer assistance for specific volunteer fireys will go a long way towards enabling volunteers to continue volunteering. This will mitigate to a great degree self-employed people from going under, or small businesses whose employees are responding to a fire to say, for example, stop said small business from burning to the ground.

For the average person here, if you were a self-employed volunteer or small business employee volunteer (or the employer), would you respond to a fire 300kms away, or stay at your work to put food on the table for your kids? For some volunteers or their employers this is the choice they're left with.

I'm not a fan of our govt and this announcement will need a fair bit of tidying up, but I welcome it, it will go a long way towards getting on top of the bushfire crisis this season.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

It’s not pay it’s essentilly some money as compensation to keep the wolf from the door

If you would work at least 2 weeks with no guarantee of money to pay your rent or mortgage, or feed your family good for you

Basically you need to have done 10 days to get up to $300 a day

These days are AT LEAST 12hr days but usually closer to 16hrs and a few I did (I’m paid so it doesn’t count) we’re 19hrs, put that in to ah hourly rate and it’s minimum wage.

And if these men and women didn’t a lot of our ***** would be singed
Even in the safe suburbs

Nope. It is just another attempt to turn another sector from permanent to part time workers. Ii is happening with the PSO replacing work which was done by Police in the past.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Nope. It is just another attempt to turn another sector from permanent to part time workers. Ii is happening with the PSO replacing work which was done by Police in the past.

This grand Govco plan must have started a long long time ago then

This SMALL gesture will not create a shift from paid to volunteer emergency workers

[Cav]

I silenced Franco.


I think I will carve a notch in my computer desk.

[GasoLane]

Can we please stop with the personal and off topic comments, any more will be deleted.

[Cav]

I believe that volunteer firefighters should have their service cost neutral to them. That is reasonable costs incurred by them as a result of their volunteering should have those costs refunded.



They volunteer their time.


If they wanted to be a paid firefighter then they would apply to be one.


How's that Gaso?

[jinksie]

Yes absolutely especially when they are out there for so long.

The Aussie bush will continue it's cycle of rejuvenation in another 20 odd years.

Why not legislate that houses in bush to be fire proof!

The concrete house and roof house that will withstand the 90 seconds of 600 degrees means that people and property remain safe in these areas.

While Insurance companies allow houses that burn down to be insured against fire and local Councils approve house plans, it could be considered a deliberate act to permit a non fire proof house to be built in fire prone areas and a Government rebate provided for incentives to build fireproof houses a responsible and caring move.