The Death of QANTAS

[SteveJH]

A couple of points.

1) If it was illegal Qantas wouldn't have gone ahead with it, the stakes are too high to risk it.
2) Qantas cannot be sold overseas, there is an act of parliament that specifically prohibits this.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Thanks for those figures old mate. Doesn't look good at all........

[F6E]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

Yeah, right. Pay them peanuts and when one falls out of the sky, then what?

Please Sir, can I have some more?

Virgin do it, anyone scared to fly with them ?

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by F6E

Virgin do it, anyone scared to fly with them ?

Blah blah, spoken like a true shareholder.

[old_mate]

Virgin, under the helm of John Borghetti (who was CFO at Qantas when I worked there) are doing everything they can to turn Virgin into what Qantas used to be.

They have no beef with their unions, their workforce 'appear' relatively happy and as such they are doing pretty well for themselves at the moment.

Remember, Virgin started as a 'low cost carrier' but are heading away from that and more into a full service airline. The demise of Qantas would not upset the current CEO too much, remember there is always Jetstar (wholly owned by Qantas) and the new Jetstar Japan venture, as well as the new Asian carrier being started by Qantas.

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by F6E

Virgin do it, anyone scared to fly with them ?

So here we are at the real crux of the issue... Qantas and Virgin are not competing on equal terms, people complain Qantas is too expensive.... so they either cut costs or follow Ansett. Or the Govt force Virgin to conform to the same HR terms Qantas does.

[old_mate]

and someone may correct me on this, but Virgin are planning a heavy maintenance hangar in Sydney...

[JC]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Continuing to threaten action causing the grounding of flights, and then
canceling actions so members can still get paid while QANTAS could not
reinstate planes is driving customers away in droves.

The union is killing QANTAS.

The whole of the Australian traveling public is now very anti union,
these stupid people threatened to slow cook QANTAS, you can't do that...

2 sides on a coin.

The fact the CEO just got a $2M payrise - for what?? - who could possibly be worth that kind of money; sorry, but I think that's highly excessive, and then you have to keep in mind, that's a pay rise - no way is someone worth $5M per year as a hired employee. A guy who does it from scratch is different, but then he would be using that kind of money to expand his business. Anyway, back on topic......

ASo, back to the CEO getting a $5M payrise (40%), and the workers who actually help to generate the company's income can't get agreement for what they want....yeh, that's fair. Unions - can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.

[F6E]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

Blah blah, spoken like a true shareholder.

As a very, very minor shareholder I support Alan Joyce all the way, on principal alone, even if it smashes the share price...Meh '

Better to bulldoze the house now than let the termites eat it slowly.

[AC]

Originally Posted by JC

2 sides on a coin.

The fact the CEO just got a $2M payrise - for what?? - who could possibly be worth that kind of money; sorry, but I think that's highly excessive, and then you have to keep in mind, that's a pay rise - no way is someone worth $5M per year as a hired employee. A guy who does it from scratch is different, but then he would be using that kind of money to expand his business. Anyway, back on topic......

ASo, back to the CEO getting a $5M payrise (40%), and the workers who actually help to generate the company's income can't get agreement for what they want....yeh, that's fair. Unions - can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.

3rd side of the coin.
How does Qantas's CEOs pay compare to the CEOs of other big int. airlines?

I hate to be the devils advocate, but he maybe under paid in comparison.

And then again, think of our PM, isn't she getting one too, as much as I'm not a fan of Julia, she makes a pitiful bit of coin in comparison as well...

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by AC

3rd side of the coin.
How does Qantas's CEOs pay compare to the CEOs of other big int. airlines?

I hate to be the devils advocate, but he maybe under paid in comparison.

And then again, think of our PM, isn't she getting one too, as much as I'm not a fan of Julia, she makes a pitiful bit of coin in comparison as well...

Spot on.

[SSD-85]

Originally Posted by F6E

Good on him.

Close it down, wrap it up and reopen overseas where people are more appreciative of the oportunity of employment.


A job is not a birth rite.

Is that right? Whilst Ill try not to make assumptions about what you do to earn your living, but its that very attitude that will eventually lead to a country full of unemployed people.

Sure they can pay someone 90% less in another country to do your job, but where does that leave you and your family? Where does that leave that very company trying to sell a product in Australia, but cant sell as much because people are becoming unemployed? Lets face it, its a false economy.

Or are you just happy with the idea of thousands more Australians living in poverty just so you can get something a little cheaper....? And as an FYI, if an Australian product is available to buy, I buy it over the import.

[sprint347dave]

what was that quote from the movie" RAIN MAN ",,where the guy would only fly with qantas because of its safety record,, 1988 seems like such a long time ago ,,back then i was a bit like raymond in the movie,,,even if it cost a little more to fly with them i would always fly with the flying kangroo,,,now that roo is only good as VIP pet food,,,with all this turmoil going on i will never trust qantas with my life..

[JC]

Originally Posted by AC

3rd side of the coin.
How does Qantas's CEOs pay compare to the CEOs of other big int. airlines?

I hate to be the devils advocate, but he maybe under paid in comparison.

And then again, think of our PM, isn't she getting one too, as much as I'm not a fan of Julia, she makes a pitiful bit of coin in comparison as well...

But that's my point - justify how someone who is a company hire is worth that kind of money in any corporation? IMO, they're not. Pretty sure there's some legislation in the works to limit these obscene salaries, and it's about time. Self made millionaires deserve their huge incomes, but CEOs who are effectively leaches, paying themselves whatever they want, do not deserve this sort of money, IMO. If only board's had the balls to call the CEOs bluff and show them the door - most decently performing companies have a very good long term management structure that really wouldn't matter if the CEO was there or not.

[AC]

Originally Posted by sprint347dave

what was that quote from the movie" RAIN MAN ",,where the guy would only fly with qantas because of its safety record,, 1988 seems like such a long time ago ,,back then i was a bit like raymond in the movie,,,even if it cost a little more to fly with them i would always fly with the flying kangroo,,,now that roo is only good as VIP pet food,,,with all this turmoil going on i will never trust qantas with my life..

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeYf-rhMQIQ

Great movie

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by JC

But that's my point - justify how someone who is a company hire is worth that kind of money in any corporation? IMO, they're not. Pretty sure there's some legislation in the works to limit these obscene salaries, and it's about time. Self made millionaires deserve their huge incomes, but CEOs who are effectively leaches, paying themselves whatever they want, do not deserve this sort of money, IMO. If only board's had the balls to call the CEOs bluff and show them the door - most decently performing companies have a very good long term management structure that really wouldn't matter if the CEO was there or not.

They are worth whatever the companies are willing to pay them, and not a cent more.

[asdf1234]

Last week I heard the strikes cost QANTAS 70 million dollars. Why would management give a pay rise to people who just cost them 70 million dollars?I think the 70 million dollars was their pay rise now gone down the drain.

[Silver Ghia]

To me, awarding Joyce the $5 million yesterday was like waving a red rag at a bull. CEO's must learn to lead by example, perhaps if Joyce refused the pay increase granted by the shareholders, the unions would listen and respect him more.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by F6E

Virgin do it, anyone scared to fly with them ?

Me. And I'm a Qantas shareholder. Paid $3.20 for mine, and until I sell them I haven't lost anything. I still have the same number of shares.

[gtfpv]

interesting thread , i just cant wait till the miners start shutting down the mines , untill competition with other countries becomes fairer to the owners of the companies also , sick of seeing thes companies getting raped and pilidged by UNION thugs who actually pay unions to protect thier rights and pay , so they can pay the bank that 30 year contract mortgage theyve signed upto at the most expensive interest rates in the world , dont get me started on those mongrels , you should see how the lucky aussies are living compared to those poor hard workers in india and manilla , its about time these big corperations stood up to these union thugs , its just making me sick how they can hold the country to ransom . A JOB ISN'T A BIRTHRIGHT !

[kevino]

Jetstar is still flying.
Is Joyce deliberately setting up a continual downsizing of Qantas.
Financially in the short medium term say 2 years his moves make no sense-it would be more cost effective to meet most of the unions issues.

But is teh bigger game to make Qantas smaller and move passengers to the lower cost Jetstar brand?

[cs123]

Originally Posted by old_mate

Virgin, under the helm of John Borghetti (who was CFO at Qantas when I worked there) are doing everything they can to turn Virgin into what Qantas used to be.

They have no beef with their unions, their workforce 'appear' relatively happy and as such they are doing pretty well for themselves at the moment.

Remember, Virgin started as a 'low cost carrier' but are heading away from that and more into a full service airline. The demise of Qantas would not upset the current CEO too much, remember there is always Jetstar (wholly owned by Qantas) and the new Jetstar Japan venture, as well as the new Asian carrier being started by Qantas.

I read an interesting article about him. I think it was a major mistake to give Joyce the job instead of him.

I really don't think Joyce is up to it as the CEO of Qantas. He must accept some responsibility for the position he is in with a number of staff associations.

I have no affiliation with Qantas apart from sitting on one of their planes most weeks of the year. I've been seriously contemplating jumping across to Virgin as I can take my QFF status with me. This might just be the last straw for me.

[gtfpv]

OH and yes i'm sure some people just decided to approach the bosses and ask for a payrise and permanancy protection so that casuals could at least earn the same as the permanants along side them with maybe the hope of becoming permanent as well , and the company said no . so they just called the media and all of a sudden it was all over the news right , theres no chance that this went on for months and months before it made the news DO YA THUNK ?

[AC]

Originally Posted by JC

But that's my point - justify how someone who is a company hire is worth that kind of money in any corporation? IMO, they're not. Pretty sure there's some legislation in the works to limit these obscene salaries, and it's about time. Self made millionaires deserve their huge incomes, but CEOs who are effectively leaches, paying themselves whatever they want, do not deserve this sort of money, IMO. If only board's had the balls to call the CEOs bluff and show them the door - most decently performing companies have a very good long term management structure that really wouldn't matter if the CEO was there or not.

I don't disagree, I'm just saying... Exactly what I said.
Maybe he is underpaid in comparison to his rival CEO's, self made or not.

As for the board calling the CEOs bluff, it appears they are 100% behind him. They appear united in crushing unions, if they succeed, then they will be untouchable and it'll be a learning lesson.

I'm sure other airlines are watching this and will see how it's handled and could well make him an offer in the future he can't refuse... Or not.

[earlybird]

This is all about big business and giving the shareholders a bigger return on investment full stop. Its about exporting the jobs offshore to make a bigger profit for the business. Less jobs and oppurtunity for Aussies.I hope all the Union bashers here dont complain in years to come that there children and grandchildren cant get a job in the airline industry because you have to work for sub $10 an hour.

[kevino]

Joyce is the one trashing the Qantas brand.
End result
Virgin market share up
Qantas/Jetstar combines market share down

Qantas shareholders lose under Joyce union busting strategy.

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by earlybird

This is all about big business and giving the shareholders a bigger return on investment full stop. Its about exporting the jobs offshore to make a bigger profit for the business. Less jobs and oppurtunity for Aussies.I hope all the Union bashers here dont complain in years to come that there children and grandchildren cant get a job in the airline industry because you have to work for sub $10 an hour.

What if your only competitor already operates under the same cost and outsourcing blueprint Qantas is trying to tap into to remain competitive?
Maybe we should blame Virgin customers for this.

[troystanton78]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

To me, awarding Joyce the $5 million yesterday was like waving a red rag at a bull. CEO's must learn to lead by example, perhaps if Joyce refused the pay increase granted by the shareholders, the unions would listen and respect him more.

We all must realise it wasn't a 5mil payrise, i believe it was a rise taking his pay upto 5mil, most of which is incentives and performance based, he also stated that the board wll not be paid whilst the airline is grounded,(leading by example) i think we have to look at the situation as a whole, if job sec was guaranteed for ever and payrises each year then qantas may as well shut up shop now, it is just not sustainable, some jobs must be outsourced or qantas is history, air fares have been getting cheaper as competition grows, something must give

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by earlybird

Less jobs and oppurtunity for Aussies.I hope all the Union bashers here dont complain in years to come that there children and grandchildren cant get a job in the airline industry because you have to work for sub $10 an hour.

there are already too few jobs in australia due to the unions. for sure they have helped some, but there are far too many people getting paid way too much for doing way too little. and the laughable thing is that australia's closest neighbours are all earning 2-5% of those huge wages . . . and yet the fault lies with the people from those countries willing to work for peanuts

i do not disagree that the ceo's and the like are greedy, but then so are the unions and the people who support them. most people only look after themselves and then blame everyone else when it goes pear shaped

[troystanton78]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Maybe we should blame Virgin customers for this.

we could blame all cut price customers, we want it cheaper but want the service to remain the same