Who would buy a 4cy and/or a diesel Falcon?

[Resurrection]

There is no diesel Falcon.

The 2.0 GTDI engine will go harder than the 3.0 SIDI Commodore and use less fuel.

[cheap]

I'm still sitting on the fence.

Diesels do generally get better mileage, but diesel generally costs a couple of cents more than petrol

Diesels vehicles generally cost hundreds to a several thousand dollars more than their petrol version

Diesels generally cost more to service

Diesels generally have turbos or twin turbos which eventually need servicing too

I would be very interested to see the total cost of ownership of Diesel Falcon and a petrol Falcon for 5 years/100,000 kms before saying one or the other.

My own research, I could have bought a Turbo Diesel Landcruiser or a Petrol Landcruiser, with the Diesel it would have been necessary for me to do +250,000 kms to break even because it cost significantly more than the Petrol version. As we all know technology changes all the time, I couldn't see the point of doing +250,000 kms to just break even. Like I said, it comes down to total cost of ownership.

[spvd02]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

The V8 Turbo Diesel (230kw/700N.m) in the Range Rover Vogue does 0-100 in 7.8 seconds. The N/A V8 (276kw/510N.m) does it in 7.6 seconds.

Thats on a 4wd weighing in at 2615kg(v8 petrol)/2810kg(v8 diesel). What were you saying about diesels being slow?

The supercharged petrol v8 does it in 6.2 seconds, but thats with 375kw/625N.m.

So considering the diesel gets 9.4l/100km and the petrols get 14 and 14.9 litres/100..... How can you say diesels are slow these days?

Hell, they've even won the Le Mans 24 hour race for the last few years straight.

Well, yeah, that would be more my point actually. A petrol model with significantly less torque will still be 1-2 seconds quicker from 0-100, because of the diesel's narrow torque band and slow burning characteristics. Of course if the diesel has 700 nm and the petrol only has 500, it's going to be close. But a supercharged petrol model with 75nm less is still a good 20% quicker when accelerating.

I do acknowledge that the high-end diesels can give very good performance, including 0-100 sprints, but less so the run-of-the-mill diesels (e.g. work utes/vans). In this case the petrol model is usually significantly faster, albeit with less torque.

[BFZ Wagon]

Would I buy a diesel Falcon over an Ecoboost petrol one? You bet I would!

I love diesel vehicles and am pleased that we'll at least have 1 Aussie built diesel model with the Territory.
If I could afford a diesel Territory when the are released, I would rush out and buy one.

At one time, I had even thought about transplanting a turbo diesel engine into a Falcon and seeing how it went.

In NZ in the early 80's, people were putting Nissan 2.8L diesel engines into VC & VH Commodores. I guess it would have been easier back then as there were no complex computers etc.

I know we'll never see a diesel Falcon but it's a nice thought anyway.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by cheap

I'm still sitting on the fence.

Diesels do generally get better mileage, but diesel generally costs a couple of cents more than petrol

about even in the price per liter..

Diesels vehicles generally cost hundreds to a several thousand dollars more than their petrol version

agree 2k avg, but the lifespan of a diesel is around 30% longer than petrol equivelent

Diesels generally cost more to service

the oil for diesels is 15% cheaper the petrol oil...filters are the same.
proffitering from dealers i suspect..

Diesels generally have turbos or twin turbos which eventually need servicing too

correct but as diesels engine's run colder, the life span of a turbo is typicly 800,000~1million k's

I would be very interested to see the total cost of ownership of Diesel Falcon and a petrol Falcon for 5 years/100,000 kms before saying one or the other.

My own research, I could have bought a Turbo Diesel Landcruiser or a Petrol Landcruiser, with the Diesel it would have been necessary for me to do +250,000 kms to break even because it cost significantly more than the Petrol version. As we all know technology changes all the time, I couldn't see the point of doing +250,000 kms to just break even. Like I said, it comes down to total cost of ownership.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by burnz

about even in the price per liter..

agree 2k avg, but the lifespan of a diesel is around 30% longer than petrol equivelent

the oil for diesels is 15% cheaper the petrol oil...filters are the same.
proffitering from dealers i suspect..

correct but as diesels engine's run colder, the life span of a turbo is typicly 800,000~1million k's

Put this all in a spreadsheet.

At this point in time Diesel and Petrol are about the same costs (wasn't always the case)
KM's per week (city driving v's highway driving) use the internet to ask people about actual mileage, sometimes real world is very different to manufacturers claims
My beloved Landcruiser is still a +$10,000 difference! extra finance required for Diesel V's interest for Petrol (cost of money to you)
Get the actual service costs from the manufacturer
Like anything mechanical turbo's fail

Also, some manufacturers don't have good dealer networks, so this should play a factor (unless you want to drive up and down the east coast all the time)

Put it all together and see what you get, some cars break even very quickly and some require huge km's to break even

<I'm just say'in>

[prydey]

all those saying they would buy one, how many new cars have you bought so far?

[Spanrz]

If it goes diesel, I don't mind, makes it easier on me to fix it

[Brazen]

Its pretty amazing on a Ford enthusiasts forum, the vast majority would take a diesel Falcon over EcoBoost. Imagine out there in the real world, where people dont know the benefits of Ecoboost? its going to take some serious marketing spend to convince people about a turbo 4 cylinder petrol. At least people already know diesels are thrifty and grunty, you wouldnt have to spend anything to sell that.

Also with the Ecoboost and diesel, I reckon the diesel would bring more conquest sales to the car. People who would be thinking of a SUV or a Euro diesel.

I think the Ecoboost will be successful in stealing sales from other Falcon variants and not bring a lot more new buyers in.

Also, have we forgetten the Falcon range includes cab-chassis utilitys? There is a market there in itself who would snap up diesel Falcon utes. Ecoboost utes? not likely.


Pretending I know what I am talking about, I would of just chucked the Territorys diesel into the Falcon range, and spent the Ecoboost money on developing a wagon. Would have to see at least 1200 units a month increase with a complete range of wagons (inc diesel) and diesel in utes and sedans. Pretty likely considering Holden can sell up to 1500-1600 Sportwagons a month (even with no LPG or diesel version!) alongside the big selling Captiva range.

With Ecoboost I think maybe a 150 net increase a month once we take away the substitution Ecoboost will have on existing I6 and LPG IG variants.

[jpd80]

While I look forward to Ecoboost Falcon, I'm beginning to wonder now that Mondeo sales are on the rise,
should Ford have just imported the Ecoboost Mondeo and just done the V6 Diesel Falcon instead?

That way Ford covers the field much better Mondeo sales increase further and Falcon gets a diesel
engine that can go into sedan and Utility, that has to be a great option in the long term....

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Pretty likely considering Holden can sell up to 1500-1600 Sportwagons a month (even with no LPG or diesel version!) alongside the big selling Captiva range.

if you believe the sportwagon isn't eating into commodore sedan sales, then you are very naive. it would also mean that comodore is actually selling less 6cyl sedans than falcon, even at their current low numbers.

for arguments sake, lets say they built a new fg wagon. where would the company be now if wagon sales stayed the same as before?? wagon sales were only about 400/month at best and the car wasn't costing much to build. to build a new one, they would have to sell at least as many per month to make it work. what if the wagon then chewed into sedan sales and territory sales? straight away its almost counter productive. they just can't afford the risk these days. they don't have the same kind of money to develop all the different variants anymore. thats my opinion anyway. ford have much more available data than anyone on here who thinks they know better.

[The Snout]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Pretending I know what I am talking about, I would of just chucked the Territorys diesel into the Falcon range, and spent the Ecoboost money on developing a wagon. Would have to see at least 1200 units a month increase with a complete range of wagons (inc diesel) and diesel in utes and sedans. Pretty likely considering Holden can sell up to 1500-1600 Sportwagons a month (even with no LPG or diesel version!) alongside the big selling Captiva range.

With Ecoboost I think maybe a 150 net increase a month once we take away the substitution Ecoboost will have on existing I6 and LPG IG variants.

Well said. No matter the make up of the numbers of sedan or wagon sales, just the added versitility that would bring the Falcon range would demand and command more sales.

Righr or wrong , would certainly have been worth deep consideration. Especially in light of the current unacceptable plight.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

if you believe the sportwagon isn't eating into commodore sedan sales, then you are very naive. it would also mean that comodore is actually selling less 6cyl sedans than falcon, even at their current low numbers.

for arguments sake, lets say they built a new fg wagon. where would the company be now if wagon sales stayed the same as before?? wagon sales were only about 400/month at best and the car wasn't costing much to build. to build a new one, they would have to sell at least as many per month to make it work. what if the wagon then chewed into sedan sales and territory sales? straight away its almost counter productive. they just can't afford the risk these days. they don't have the same kind of money to develop all the different variants anymore. thats my opinion anyway. ford have much more available data than anyone on here who thinks they know better.

Ford has the better strategy with Falcon Sedan, TDCI Mondeo wagon and Territory,
I think that saved them a bunch over developing a wagon but I would like to see an
Ecoboost version of the Mondeo wagon to further compete with Commodore Sportwagon,
I think the Ecoboost Mondeo wagon would outpoint the 3.0SIDI Sportwagon but not sure about the 3.6.....
Diesel Mondeo Wagon must be appealing to buyers, great fuel economy and lots of torque...

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Brazen

There is a market there in itself who would snap up diesel Falcon utes. Ecoboost utes? not likely

People here said exactly the same thing about the F150. Until Ford went around proving the EcoBoost in performance, torque, fuel economy and durability. They have done a great job in getting people educated.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by prydey

all those saying they would buy one, how many new cars have you bought so far?

I said I would have a diesel wagon Falcon - as long as it looked good and was not a povo fleet hack. Out of the 4 cars I have had, 4 have been new. Out of the 6 cars if you include my wife, 6 have been new.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by prydey

if you believe the sportwagon isn't eating into commodore sedan sales, then you are very naive. it would also mean that comodore is actually selling less 6cyl sedans than falcon, even at their current low numbers.

I don’t agree.. Sure, there might be a hand full of people that have swapped from sedan to wagon, but I just not buy that line in big enough numbers to make a real difference. And you show me all the numbers in the world, but none of them can prove anything. People that want sedans buy sedan, people that want wagons buy wagons... The number of times I've heard people on this forum saying "if Ford had a nice FG wagon they'd buy one"... These people are not driving FG sedans, they are driving other non FG model wagons...

[The Snout]

Originally Posted by chevypower

People here said exactly the same thing about the F150. Until Ford went around proving the EcoBoost in performance, torque, fuel economy and durability. They have done a great job in getting people educated.

Can count me as one of those that got an education though those proving episodes. Brilliant engine.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by prydey

if you believe the sportwagon isn't eating into commodore sedan sales, then you are very naive. it would also mean that comodore is actually selling less 6cyl sedans than falcon, even at their current low numbers.

I think the niavety spreads to the fact that Sportwagon isnt eating into Falcon sales.

Like it or not, Falcon and Commodore are linked at the hip. The market fads, trends and culture which affects one car will certainly affect the other. If Sportwagon is eating into Commodore sedan sales then I can assure you its eating into Falcon sales, which is a net increase to Holden. Its kind of like how Territory not only took Falcon sales, but commodore sales. Actually you can almost pinpoint the moment when Falcon sales started falling....right around the introduction of Sportwagon.

Holden would have died in the **** if it wasnt for Sportwagon. Toyota the most successful car company in the country cant even sell the sedan-only Aurion compared to the early 2000s when the ugly-unloved-80s-design Avalon was selling up to 2400 a month.... The market has shifted from large sedans, if you think Holden would be selling this many Commodores without the Sportwagon then your crazy.

People were screaming failure when the fresh VT was outselling the unappealing AU by 20%. Now we have the 5 year old VE outselling the best and most attractive (and cheapest) Falcon ever by up to 150% and they dont think Sportwagon hasnt made a difference, we need to get real on this forum.

[Big Bird 17]

I would love a diesel ute.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I don’t agree.. Sure, there might be a hand full of people that have swapped from sedan to wagon,

so if the sportwagon wasn't for sale do you think commodore sales would be around 2500?

when the sportwagon was released (normally when new models sell the most), the commodore sales only increased marginally so i don't see how anyone can say they aren't eating into sedan sales.

anyway this is getting way off topic.

Originally Posted by naddis01

I said I would have a diesel wagon Falcon - as long as it looked good and was not a povo fleet hack. Out of the 4 cars I have had, 4 have been new. Out of the 6 cars if you include my wife, 6 have been new

hats off to you sir, but most people who say 'i would buy one' don't buy new cars.

Originally Posted by Brazen

Its pretty amazing on a Ford enthusiasts forum, the vast majority would take a diesel Falcon over EcoBoost. Imagine out there in the real world, where people dont know the benefits of Ecoboost? its going to take some serious marketing spend to convince people about a turbo 4 cylinder petrol. At least people already know diesels are thrifty and grunty, you wouldnt have to spend anything to sell that.

the 4cyl falcon will be aimed mainly at fleets who have a 4 cyl only policy. there are many who do have this clause apparently. it will allow fleets the ability to purchase a larger car whilst still fitting the company profile.

[I6DOHC]

Originally Posted by FalconXR6

whilst ever they're making that straight 6 turbo, i wouldn't consider anything else...ok, maybe a s/c coyote...

Amen to that. Only the s/c coyote could sway me from the boosted 6.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by prydey

so if the sportwagon wasn't for sale do you think commodore sales would be around 2500?

YES!!!

Why do allot of people think that number for commondore sales each month is totaly unreasonable when it has been the normal for Falcon for a few years now??

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

YES!!!

but they weren't before it came along. surely the vz wagon wasn't selling that well, not to mention the months in between vz ending and sportwagon kicking off.

there are many people that have bought a wagon because it is something different.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by prydey

but they weren't before it came along. surely the vz wagon wasn't selling that well, not to mention the months in between vz ending and sportwagon kicking off.

there are many people that have bought a wagon because it is something different.

And Falcon was not selling 1800 each month either when the sports wagon come out!!!

As I said, quote as many numbers as you want, they can't paint the picture.. The only way to know is if you asked every Sports wagan buyer "if the Wagon was not here, would you have bought the Seden instead"!!

[prydey]

i know you don't agree with me on this joe5619, but i don't believe you can compare sales figures of holden and ford. there is an affiliation between australians and holden that you just can't market against. like it or not (i don't) but thats the way i see it. there is even the little saying 'kangaroos, meat pies and holden cars'!! how often do you see hoden in the news for the wrong reasons? we all know they are in a similar situation to ford and yet the media are all over the ford news. holdens to many are still the australian car they always have been, regardless of the fact it is almost 'assembled' here only.

just because holden release a model variant that seems to work, doesn't mean the same applies with ford. ever since BA was released, very few car reviews have given a verdict in favour of the commodore and yet it continues to outsell falcon by a decent margin.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by cheap

Put this all in a spreadsheet.

At this point in time Diesel and Petrol are about the same costs (wasn't always the case)
KM's per week (city driving v's highway driving) use the internet to ask people about actual mileage, sometimes real world is very different to manufacturers claims
My beloved Landcruiser is still a +$10,000 difference! extra finance required for Diesel V's interest for Petrol (cost of money to you)
Get the actual service costs from the manufacturer
Like anything mechanical turbo's fail

Also, some manufacturers don't have good dealer networks, so this should play a factor (unless you want to drive up and down the east coast all the time)

Put it all together and see what you get, some cars break even very quickly and some require huge km's to break even

<I'm just say'in>

ok my diesel was $2000 dearer than the same spec petrol, i am shure my resale will more the compansate for this.
fuel; i wont bother with this as i'm shure the diesel wins hands down.
i dont know the 1.8 cruze economy is
maintanance;oil for the diesel is cheaper plus 15k intervals as oppossed to 10k, cost $235 last service,
with the usual rotate tires, washer bottle, courtesy car.

[jlef5]

I would buy a diesel falcon IF it was in a ute. Something that looks good and still really good to tow with. I would love to see a rtv ute with a turbo diesel and maybe even have 4x4 as an option.

[ute83]

Originally Posted by burnz

about even in the price per liter..

agree 2k avg, but the lifespan of a diesel is around 30% longer than petrol equivelent

the oil for diesels is 15% cheaper the petrol oil...filters are the same.
proffitering from dealers i suspect..

correct but as diesels engine's run colder, the life span of a turbo is typicly 800,000~1million k's

Diesel here is allways 10 cents per litre more. I have gotten 500000 + km out of dual fuel engines and still running strong while the jury is still out on modern TD engines. Two k more i agree with. Modern diesels take a full synthetic oil which is low saps and it costs heaps more than the recommended oils for petrol engines which are usually semi synthetic. And turbos only last those km in a kenworth or symilar truck, try 80000 to 160000km at up to 5 grand a pop. The cheapest and best fuel source at the moment is LPG hands down. Wait for the new lpg falcon. IMO

[Road_Warrior]

Pump price of diesel here in metropolitan Wait Awhile is around 5cpl higher than petrol. That said, lots of the soccer mum cars around here are diesel 4x4's and SUV's. I think the diesel Terri will be a big hit.

I would prefer the LPI I6 but coverage in rural areas is an issue for me, which is why I prefer dual fuel. The Ecboost I4T on the other hand would give me the space, comfort and features of the 'normal' Falcon without the thirst in peak hour and for shopping trolley duties etc.

[GTP-814]

Originally Posted by Brazen

diesel yes, ecoboost no.

same here