V6 Holdens are BAD!

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by da_ilks

I'm not sure if Holden still do the variable power steering (they used too on Calais/Statesman), which is what reduces the load on the wheel at low speeds. Check out the specs at Redbook.

Err I thought that was pretty standard kit on new cars these days? My Mazda 3 has it... and its an econo box!

[drew`SEVNT5]

My daily driver is VE Omega ute, with the H.O 195kw/6spd Manual Drivetrain..

It's an ok car, engine ok, sounds good from about 2500-5000rpm(twin pipes), doesnt pull as hard a a BA/BF I6, handles ok for a ute, a bit firm in the ride, gearbox shifts nicely, clutch feels totally dead and lifeless....

My XR6T does everything better(as you would hope/expect), and feels a little bit better put together...

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by da_ilks

Even with an inferior drivetrain Commodores routinely outsell the Falcon, so the uncompetitive product can't be all that bad. If Holden needs the new engine to be their 'saviour' then what chance does Ford have with the Falcon?

That's a far more worrying concern....

I wasn't talking about sales.....Holden certainly has done well with the commodore given in the base forms (the forms most people actually drive) it has major problems (hell it barely beat the BF when it came out).

But, Holden build many more cars at the plant than Ford, so they have to sell them. Ford pres. Osbourne recently noted that Holden had heavilly discounted the VE to blunt FG sales. Holden turned their backs on fleets when VE came out, but now seem more willing to do deals....as for private buyers, they had a 60th aniversary edition with tonnes of kit for $36 k drive away...that is ALOT below their usual sale price. Yearly profits Ford Aus. v. Holden illustrate what i mean.

Either way, i was talking about objective views on the issue, as in quality of the car itself, not sales. I agree Ford need to have more effective marketing to get more private sales, because if a person drove a FG G6 versus a VE Berlina only a one eyed holden fan or a fool would tell you the drivetrain in the VE was even approaching equal. You can debate sales, and all round worth of commodore vs. falcon ad nauseum, what can't be debated is the Commie base drivetrain aint within cooee of a falcon....FACT. The fact so many people (even those who have driven both) think otherwise shows the huge 'free kick' Holden gets in this country because it is 'australian'. Which it isnt! :

[Aeron]

Originally Posted by GTP290

I drove a VE SSV on the weekend, I was considering trading my two cars in on it and use it as a daily. HOLDENS DO NOT GO BETTER, the 6.0 litre which I expected to have loads more down load torque than my 4 speed BOSS motor was slower down low and had to be pushed hard for the gearbox to kick down and rev its tits off

Easy fix, get a manual SSV. The auto is shocking!

As for the V6, I wouldn't bother at all. :

[Falc'man]

I used to have an ex taxi EF Falcon. It had 770,000 on the clock. It was more enjoyable than the VY that work handed over to me. In fact, the ex taxi become my weekend car. Admittedly, I did put a 185kW V8/5sp manual in it. Heaps more fun.

[FGII-XR6]

this seems to be the direction of this thread

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

this seems to be the direction of this thread

LOL!!!!! Great graphic to describe my input into this discussion. Getting back on topic, Falc'man your example is one of many i assume. I can't think of too many VS commies of the same age and work load that would hold up like the old EF......

Oh wait, is that really staying on topic......

[djst]

We have had both the Commodore and Falcons as fleet vehicles at work.
The B series vehicles were definetly the more comfortable vehicle and the smoother vehicle to drive,especially over longer periods of time, The Falcon was a nicer place to be,but some of the employees prefered the Commodores generally due to a more firm handling suspension setup,compared to the Falcon.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by da_ilks

Even with an inferior drivetrain Commodores routinely outsell the Falcon, so the uncompetitive product can't be all that bad. If Holden needs the new engine to be their 'saviour' then what chance does Ford have with the Falcon?

That's a far more worrying concern....

In all seriousness Chris, the Commodore still have been making a loss with the Commodore. Looking at Sales figures isn't the way to measure the success of the vehicle as if the car isn't making a profit then there is no point making the next model.

Yes I know the Falcon is losing money as well. I just hope that both cars start to turn a profit as I dont wanna see myself in a handbag in the next few years!!

[XAGSV8]

Oh come on. I may be a Ford man at heart but the VY is not as bad as some make out here. This thread is just a chance for people to over exaggerate faults in that model. There is certainly worse out there.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by XAGSV8

Oh come on. I may be a Ford man at heart but the VY is not as bad as some make out here. This thread is just a chance for people to over exaggerate faults in that model. There is certainly worse out there.

Well there is the Magna...

your right, its probarly an overexaggeration, but seriously compared to its competitors the VZ was a dud!

[SSbaby]

Reading between the lines... I can understand what the writer's viewpoints are. Both the Falcon and Commodore drive differently and are very different in personality. You can almost guess the GM car from the Ford, blindfolded.

I agree the Holden is perhaps less refined than the Ford, especially over time. Engine refinement, couple with better transmissions give the Ford the edge in NVH. The steering in the Ford also seems more direct and the suspension tends to soak the bumps with ease. The Holden, by comparison tends to hit the bumps more.

Having said that... having punted the Holden at high speed, they seem to go better the harder you push them. The only 'uncomfortable' feeling you get is not knowing exactly when the rear end will let go... but that's only a feeling you get after hopping out of the Ford. Once you adjust to the car's attitude, the Commodore's a fairly predicable handler and a reasonable steerer.

I'm glad they are different in character.

[BennyMac]

Originally Posted by LSTerritoryGhia

Ive only got one driving style, thats hard... My intention was to put this car through its paces, to see what all the fuss was about.. I came back with no answers...

You took a V6 WAGON out to "put it through its paces" :
Wow you do have only one driving style and being "hard" i bet you gave that V6 a real "test" it just could not handle

Both The Ford and Holden range have their good and bad points. The BA/F XR6T is THE best 6 going around. The 5.7/6L and the 5.4L are about on par (STOCK).
Outside, well its a matter of opinion.
Inside, well thats where i went from buying a BF XR6 to a VZ SV8.
The BA/F is woeful inside. BUT each to their own....... :

Ben

[da_ilks]

Just for some fun, I did some looking for some reviews

BA XT vs VY Exec

http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/2757433.aspx

BAII XR6 vs VZ SV6

http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/2466416.aspx

BF vs VE

http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/2279227.aspx

I don't disagree the Ford drivetrain is better, I just don't think the Commodores is as bad as people are making out

Originally Posted by LSTerritoryGhia

Well there is the Magna...

My Dad had a TJ Magna - It was better built then a Falcon/Commodore, had better fuel economy, and the ride was pretty good for a poverty pack family car. The Magna was a much better car then people gave it credit for, however, the sheer crapiness of the early ones killed it in this country as it could never shake it's poor image.

Originally Posted by vztrt

as I dont wanna see myself in a handbag in the next few years!!

XR6T ;)

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by da_ilks

My Dad had a TJ Magna - It was better built then a Falcon/Commodore, had better fuel economy, and the ride was pretty good for a poverty pack family car. The Magna was a much better car then people gave it credit for, however, the sheer crapiness of the early ones killed it in this country as it could never shake it's poor image.



XR6T ;)

I agree with this....didn't the magna win wheels car of the year in 1997. I went in one in like 1999, and thought it was quite a nice car, smaller than a falcon, but quite nice. Ride was good, decent performance from the 6...didn't seem really good at handling, but not bad for a FWD large car. The 380 was a damn good drive for a FWD large car too.....

Mitsu reputation generally killed that car, because it wasn't bad in itself.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Reading between the lines... I can understand what the writer's viewpoints are. Both the Falcon and Commodore drive differently and are very different in personality. You can almost guess the GM car from the Ford, blindfolded.

I agree the Holden is perhaps less refined than the Ford, especially over time. Engine refinement, couple with better transmissions give the Ford the edge in NVH. The steering in the Ford also seems more direct and the suspension tends to soak the bumps with ease. The Holden, by comparison tends to hit the bumps more.

Having said that... having punted the Holden at high speed, they seem to go better the harder you push them. The only 'uncomfortable' feeling you get is not knowing exactly when the rear end will let go... but that's only a feeling you get after hopping out of the Ford. Once you adjust to the car's attitude, the Commodore's a fairly predicable handler and a reasonable steerer.

I'm glad they are different in character.

I agree though I rather a Falcon at high speed as Commodores feel very light and wobbly off the clock.

I have found that Commodores feel like they are going to slide going around corners while Falcons feel like they are going to roll off it.

Commodores steering is direct but innacurate while Falcons have a bit of slack but are much more accurate.

Most importantly thanks to the combination of shorter gearing, hard suspension and hard steering the Commodore FEELS faster while the Falcon generally feels more cruisy while being no slower.

You can punt a Falcon sideways one handed while the Commo generally needs two hands on the wheel.

[dave289]

Originally Posted by BennyMac

You took a V6 WAGON out to "put it through its paces" :
Wow you do have only one driving style and being "hard" i bet you gave that V6 a real "test" it just could not handle

Both The Ford and Holden range have their good and bad points. The BA/F XR6T is THE best 6 going around. The 5.7/6L and the 5.4L are about on par (STOCK).
Outside, well its a matter of opinion.
Inside, well thats where i went from buying a BF XR6 to a VZ SV8.
The BA/F is woeful inside. BUT each to their own....... :

Ben

I could probably understand someone going from a bf 6 to a ve 8.but not from a bf to a vz.shocking styling on the vz both front and back.when the vz was released they refered to it as the magnadore because the rear styling was so similiar to the magna.and the front end styling is so dated and boring it is behond a joke.I think my opinion is more fact than opinion.

[JC260]

Originally Posted by BennyMac

You took a V6 WAGON out to "put it through its paces" :
Wow you do have only one driving style and being "hard" i bet you gave that V6 a real "test" it just could not handle

Both The Ford and Holden range have their good and bad points. The BA/F XR6T is THE best 6 going around. The 5.7/6L and the 5.4L are about on par (STOCK).
Outside, well its a matter of opinion.
Inside, well thats where i went from buying a BF XR6 to a VZ SV8.
The BA/F is woeful inside. BUT each to their own....... :

Ben

LOL!
Are you serious? Do you even have the senses of sight and feel?!
The VZ is an absolute disgrace when it comes to the interior, it looks gawdy and feels like its made from dead daewoo's and written off hyundai's.
My parents 97 pulsar feels better made.

And in what way is the BA/F woeful exactly?

It is well built (its not perfect, but compared to the commo? pfft : ), its well laid out, plenty of room, intuitive to use and looks good!
And thats just the BA Mk1, it only got better from there.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by burnz

i think the holden got better standard equipment for the same price.

What??? Like Air Cond????

[CAMS290]

We have a VY wagon as a family car (i hate the rear of the AU to BF Wagons) and it is a good car, its got 145,000 kays on it, i drive a EL Ghia with 280,000 kays on it, the EL goes better, doesnt rattle or use any oil like the Commodore, but i love I6 Fords and maybe i'm a bit biased

[xbgs351]

Nothing wrong with v6 Holdens that a Reynard chasssis won't fix.

[CAMS290]

Originally Posted by BennyMac

Inside, well thats where i went from buying a BF XR6 to a VZ SV8.
The BA/F is woeful inside. BUT each to their own....... :

Ben

Are you serious ?

I have owned both a BA and VY at the same time, and the BA interior killed the VY/VZ interior, the Ford switch gear is miles ahead of the Holden, like multi adjustable heater fan, the stereo and heater control interface, better cruise control set up, classier looking instruments, interior door handles that dont feel like you are going to pull the whole door trim off, and the list goes on......

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by CAMS290

Are you serious ?

I have owned both a BA and VY at the same time, and the BA interior killed the VY/VZ interior, the Ford switch gear is miles ahead of the Holden, like multi adjustable heater fan, the stereo and heater control interface, better cruise control set up, classier looking instruments, interior door handles that dont feel like you are going to pull the whole door trim off, and the list goes on......

The holden commodore interior aint a strong suit that is for sure. Everything is there and it works, but they are mot very user friendly (though Falcon aint perfect) but most importantly plastic quality is woeful in some models. VZ was so far outdated towards the end even holden fans admit it was a disgrace. Hell the VE interior has dodgier plastics in some places than a BF...FG takes another step again. I certainly can't see how anyone, including those without sight (who have a very powerful sense of touch at that!) can make the statement that a BA/BF interior is woeful and a VZ one is nice....

That is beyond me.

[futura888]

Originally Posted by Jock260

Opinions are like Ar$eholes , everybody has one, but nobody wants to hear them. Dont you guys get tired of holden bashing threads?

Perhaps you should go have a squizz on the holden forums...i'm sure they have got some nice things to say about our beloved fords

BTW.this isn't holden bashing,we are simply stating how average these y/z series models are...holdens are a decent car,just a shame about their transmissions,+1 for the chev motors over the ford v8 motors(except for the sound),ever since the introduction of the gen3,holden has had the wood on ford.

just my opinion,as we all have one and have a right too it : .

cheers josh

[Jock260]

Yeah mate, im a member there too, but they aren't half as one eyed as this lot.

[Laminge]

Originally Posted by Jock260

Yeah mate, im a member there too, but they aren't half as one eyed as this lot.

Maybe you should move there permanently then!

The Holden haters here seem to far outweigh the Ford haters at the other forums. No I don't think that's at all reflective of the cars.

[Jock260]

Originally Posted by Laminge

Maybe you should move there permanently then!

I Would, but get this, i like Holdens AND Fords....

[XR6_190]

I think there are just more active members here full stop. with more members comes more 'bad eggs' as well as more of the opposite the heavily biased ones would easily be attracted to a thread with a name like this one, yes we have biased members here, but so do the other Forums.

Originally Posted by Jock260

I Would, but get this, i like Holdens AND Fords....

NOOOOO. Witch. Burn him.