Details emerge - VF Commodore

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I think the total cost was reported by Drivel as being up around $480 odd million total with
around $149 million tip in from the government. Meaning Holden spent around $330 odd million

A lot of that introduction cost was for new presses and what not, exactly what they did with VE,
a way of getting new infrastructure on the back of a new car line....

Something that would be odd if Holden was selling only base model Cruze for $22,000
but the current product mix is skewed heavily towards mid and high series and diesel too.

Long story short, the product mix of Cruze without the development cost may be very attractive
as is possibly, the write down cost of what I assume would be called "replacement production equipment..."

Wasn't the gov money supposed to be approved on a 3 to 1 spend from the manufacturer?

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

So why then am I seeing plenty of high series Territories and Falcons for sale with the voice control button on the steering wheel...

http://www.carsales.com.au/demo/details/ford-falcon-2012-12058893?base=1216&vertical=Car&cr=8&eapi=2&__N=12 16%201246%201247%201252%201282%204294966463%204294 966285%204294676988%204294739427&silo=Stock&Range= Price:Min,Max~0.5&sort=default

As mentioned it was meant to turn on a voice activation function however the 1st and last time I used it I think it just muted the radio...in a SZ Terry that is, in the 1st FG's it's just a solid tab, no graphic.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Wasn't the gov money supposed to be approved on a 3 to 1 spend from the manufacturer?

Yes it was and after tracking down the actual figures, I can confirm that your estimates were right,

LINK
Under the agreement, Holden had to invest $447 million in the localisation of the car to receive the $149 million injection, bringing the total to $596 million.

That's rather a lot when you consider Holden spent $1 billion to develop the Commodore and Caprice from the ground up - but they got four cars for that amount of money (sedan, wagon, ute and limousine).

[block58]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

As mentioned it was meant to turn on a voice activation function however the 1st and last time I used it I think it just muted the radio...in a SZ Terry that is, in the 1st FG's it's just a solid tab, no graphic.

It probably relies on a bluetooth connected phone's inbuilt voice control, so if one wasnt connected then nothing would happen.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

So why then am I seeing plenty of high series Territories and Falcons for sale with the voice control button on the steering wheel...

http://www.carsales.com.au/demo/deta...5&sort=default

Wow, I was sure they didn't have it. As above maybe it's a phone related function, as opposed to full voice control of the radio etc like the Euro Fords.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yes it was and after tracking down the actual figures, I can confirm that your estimates were right,

This thread is about VF Commodore. Can't we have a thread to discuss the actual car, without you hijacking it to incessantly harp on about politics and financial figures which nobody really cares about?

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by stevz

This thread is about VF Commodore. Can't we have a thread to discuss the actual car, without you hijacking it to incessantly harp on about politics and financial figures which nobody really cares about?

Oh, just like all the falcon/ecoboost/territory threads that stay on topic?

[stevz]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Oh, just like all the falcon/ecoboost/territory threads that stay on topic?

It would be nice to have threads where you don't have to wade through several pages of crap to find some useful information, wouldn't it?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Three things Boss,
1) VF is an evolution of VE, not a whole new platform Holden was planning for prior to the Global Financial Crisis.
So Holden's refresh will be incremental change and not the whole new generation impact that VE was back in 2006

2) Holden is in the same boat financially as Ford, their budget for VF is $189 million versus $103 million for Falcon
and Holden has to do LHD equivalents in that amount as well, so I'd call it all even especially with the Export risk.

3) VF will be three years old by the time E8 is replaced in 2016 so it will be interesting to see what type of
new big car Holden punts for by mid 2017 and I hope they get RWD for the good of the Aussie manufacturing.

Without getting too depressed at the moment, both manufacturers have to keep going with their respective products,
keep plugging away with advertising and get whatever sales they can, Ford need to push Ecoboost and Diesel Territory
for that double win with fuel economy down around 8 litre/100 km .

I was referring to moving ahead by a whole generation in terms of equipment levels, not the platform. I know the VF is a mid life update of the VE, but the tech stuff they are fitting to it is going to push a hell of a long way past what Ford will have. Switching to a global wiring architecture will provide them with a lot of potential tech options. Even now the VE has a fair few tech features the FG doesn't, and the VF will push that well forward again, and its unlikely Ford will even be able to come close to their spec list. The VE already has stuff like auto wipers, front parking sensors, blind spot warning etc that FG doesn't.

Have another look at the VF's funding budget, its way more than $189 mil.

The interesting thing though is Ford are claiming to get a 7% economy improvement through better aero, low rolling resistant tyres and the 2nd gen ZF 6 speed, yet Holden are aiming for a 7% economy improvement by slashing weight, improving aero, engine upgrades and lower rolling resistance tyres.

Same result in economy improvement, but Holden are aiming to cut 100kg of weight out of it, and probably spending 2-3 times what Ford are to get the same result.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/119455/h...nt-investment/

If the government is chipping in $40 million on a 3 to 1 basis just for the aero and aluminium panels, that brings the total to around $160 million, and that doesn't include new interiors, engine upgrades and electrical equipment. So their investment is significant. I'd say over $300 mil.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by stevz

This thread is about VF Commodore. Can't we have a thread to discuss the actual car, without you hijacking it to incessantly harp on about politics and financial figures which nobody really cares about?

Other people get involved, so obviously people do care, and its entirely relevant to the VF so its not off topic.

Don't like it, do us a favour and try here
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/forum.php

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I was referring to moving ahead by a whole generation in terms of equipment levels, not the platform. I know the VF is a mid life update of the VE, but the tech stuff they are fitting to it is going to push a hell of a long way past what Ford will have. Switching to a global wiring architecture will provide them with a lot of potential tech options. Even now the VE has a fair few tech features the FG doesn't, and the VF will push that well forward again, and its unlikely Ford will even be able to come close to their spec list. The VE already has stuff like auto wipers, front parking sensors, blind spot warning etc that FG doesn't.

Have another look at the VF's funding budget, its way more than $189 mil.

The interesting thing though is Ford are claiming to get a 7% economy improvement through better aero, low rolling resistant tyres and the 2nd gen ZF 6 speed, yet Holden are aiming for a 7% economy improvement by slashing weight, improving aero, engine upgrades and lower rolling resistance tyres.

Same result in economy improvement, but Holden are aiming to cut 100kg of weight out of it, and probably spending 2-3 times what Ford are to get the same result.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/119455/h...nt-investment/

If the government is chipping in $40 million on a 3 to 1 basis just for the aero and aluminium panels, that brings the total to around $160 million, and that doesn't include new interiors, engine upgrades and electrical equipment. So their investment is significant. I'd say over $300 mil.

A global wiring harness...you mean like what the SZ and FGII use now? Ford AU didnt just come up with that themselves, they are using global parts. They're already using the EUCD door mirrors which means they can use the folding variety with blind spot detecting ******** now with the new wiring harness and ECU...

And that 113 million for the Falcon's 2014 update is just for implementing fuel efficiency...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by stevz

It would be nice to have threads where you don't have to wade through several pages of crap to find some useful information, wouldn't it?

And of course you have nothing to add....

All the info currently available on VF was talked about in the first two pages, there's a bit more but nothing for the boards yet...

VF Zeta will have a lighter structure than Zeta due to several factors, the GM “Layer Build” process
which uses lots of smaller light weight elements and more welding to deliver a chassis that is still
just as strong as the original. The original Zeta in VE used big logs or longitudinal chassis members
to give strength where the “Layer build” replaces those members with “compartment” structures that
look like trapezoid, honeycomb and triangulated sections resulting in strong structures with less
metal producing approximately half of the projected 100 Kg weight saving, the rest supposedly
coming from bolt on alloy panels and more use of plastic components. (I'm not convinced that Holden will use aluminium panels)

Internally engineers at GM are suggesting that the large Alpha + and VF Zeta upgrade will probably weigh
about the same so there’s no real reason for Holden to consider switching platforms if indeed GMNA
made the platform available to Holden for developing a car…

Zeta 1 has built in capacity of 500 hp and 3000 Kg GVM where the preceding V-car platform was limited to
400 hp and around 2700 Kg GVM, In developing Zeta 1, Holden increased metal thickness, suspension members,
joints, wheel bearings, wheel studs ect…

By comparison, Alpha is designed for lower capacity limits, approximately 400 hp and less than 2500 Kg GVM
in Cadillac ATS form. So it’s possible that an upscaled Alpha (+) is actually pretty close to a VF Zeta in
terms of execution, perhaps the two are starting to evolve towards one another..

[jpd80]

The big difference with VF will be that Holden gets to export the car when it's fresh on the showroom,
I'm hearing that VE to VF will be more like AU to BA than just a MCE, don't underestimate the changes.

The thing that's becoming more apparent is the desire to add more features and options,
all jokes aside the VF is going to be a seriously good car..

LINK
A COLLISION warning system, blind-spot alert and keyless remote engine start are among the high-tech features set to make their Holden debut on the company’s new-generation VF Commodore and its American export offshoot, the Chevrolet SS, that are both due in showrooms next year.

Electric power-assisted steering and an electric parking brake are also included in the new Australian-developed large car that will carry the Commodore badge through to about 2018, and perhaps for the last time.

Lighter and more frugal than the current VE Commodore that was introduced in 2006, the VF will employ a host of fuel-saving measures, starting with a greater use of thin, high-strength steel.

The pre-crash system is probably GM’s Forward Collision Warning System that debuted on the GMC Terrain SUV in the US last year.

It uses a single digital camera mounted at the top of the windscreen and sophisticated computer algorithms to detect an imminent frontal crash and warn the driver.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

And of course you have nothing to add....

All the info currently available on VF was talked about in the first two pages, there's a bit more but nothing for the boards yet...

VF Zeta will have a lighter structure than Zeta due to several factors, the GM “Layer Build” process
which uses lots of smaller light weight elements and more welding to deliver a chassis that is still
just as strong as the original. The original Zeta in VE used big logs or longitudinal chassis members
to give strength where the “Layer build” replaces those members with “compartment” structures that
look like trapezoid, honeycomb and triangulated sections resulting in strong structures with less
metal producing approximately half of the projected 100 Kg weight saving, the rest supposedly
coming from bolt on alloy panels and more use of plastic components. (I'm not convinced that Holden will use aluminium panels)

Internally engineers at GM are suggesting that the large Alpha + and VF Zeta upgrade will probably weigh
about the same so there’s no real reason for Holden to consider switching platforms if indeed GMNA
made the platform available to Holden for developing a car…

Zeta 1 has built in capacity of 500 hp and 3000 Kg GVM where the preceding V-car platform was limited to
400 hp and around 2700 Kg GVM, In developing Zeta 1, Holden increased metal thickness, suspension members,
joints, wheel bearings, wheel studs ect…

By comparison, Alpha is designed for lower capacity limits, approximately 400 hp and less than 2500 Kg GVM
in Cadillac ATS form. So it’s possible that an upscaled Alpha (+) is actually pretty close to a VF Zeta in
terms of execution, perhaps the two are starting to evolve towards one another..

I am sceptical of the weight loss, for a mid-series makeover it sounds like a massive job. 100kg weight loss on a vehicle which isnt an all new model sounds a bit far fetched.

Do you know where in the scheme of things the planned RWD Omega platform for a big Cadillac fits? Perhaps Omega is related to Zeta, just how Alpha was developed off the cut down Zeta used for the Torana concept car.

[jpd80]

Tricky, short answer (avoid derailing the thread),
1) Caddy want to go with a big RWD in about three years, rather than keep brand new XTS (WTF?)
2) the oil is a new RWD platform is too expensive, sounds like Omega = reworked / enlarged Zeta

I am sceptical of the weight loss, for a mid-series makeover it sounds like a massive job. 100kg weight loss on a vehicle which isnt an all new model sounds a bit far fetched.

Holden is doing a great job with ZF Zeta, refining the design, pulling some weight,
I can see Holden getting 40-50 Kg with frame changes this time around, especially if Layer build
My sources say 100 Kg but as we all know, that kind of weight loss in a big car means some serious
compromises and a lot more cash than Holden is spending...now.....it could be incremental....

A better way is reduce some weight and get aerodynamics and power train re calibrations right,
then come back and do some more. It's not just the weight, it's the whole package .

Both companies say 7% improvement in fuel economy but importantly, Holden get theirs first with VF,
and buyers are going to love that.

[Brazen]

Its great to see the level of technology and empahasis on fuel economy that Ford and Holden have. It makes imported cars like the Accord V6 and Maxima look like dinosaurs.

Is there any word on powertrains or variants of the VF? It sounds like its steady as she goes, which is surprising considering the change in the market. No diesel or Hybrids planned I assume? Personally I would like to see a cross country style Sportwagon, but probably buckleys of that happening.

[JPFS1]

jpd80 - I am VERY skeptical about those measures described concerning structural body changes, particularly for a 7% reduction in consumption. You would never see such changes mid cycle, even for a company that was not cash strapped.

The only way I could see such investment in these types of changes would be for a far more important 'bigger picture' plan going forward for commodore, but even so, the timing seems strange to me.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

A global wiring harness...you mean like what the SZ and FGII use now? Ford AU didnt just come up with that themselves, they are using global parts. They're already using the EUCD door mirrors which means they can use the folding variety with blind spot detecting ******** now with the new wiring harness and ECU...

And that 113 million for the Falcon's 2014 update is just for implementing fuel efficiency...

FGII doesn't use a global wiring harness, the Ranger and Focus do, and next Mondeo will. Ford Australia have pretty much gone it alone in regards to this, hence stuff like the touchscreen is totally different to the MyFord touch setup.

The ECU is a Ford global part, but it pretty much always has been that way with Falcon ECU's, FoA have always used a US version.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

jpd80 - I am VERY skeptical about those measures described concerning structural body changes, particularly for a 7% reduction in consumption. You would never see such changes mid cycle, even for a company that was not cash strapped.

The only way I could see such investment in these types of changes would be for a far more important 'bigger picture' plan going forward for commodore, but even so, the timing seems strange to me.

My intel says that they are working on unifying seemingly disjointed RWd strategies into one plan by commonizing electrical systems, sharing power trains, re engineering suspension designs to suit applications.

Take a look at this road map:

Sigma: Holden commenced development, but Cadillac and Holden differred on what was necessary and Cadillac subsumed the platform
|
Zeta: Holden used lessons learnt from Sigma, nixed the unequal-length alloy wishbones (too costly for a Holden) for a steel double-pivot lower-swingarm setup. 2004 TT36 Torana was a Zeta short assembly reportedly using Solstice front suspension members and a Sigma rear.
|
Alpha - layer build using front and rear suspension modules derived from Sigma/Zeta developments, with some components made of aluminium alloy in place of steel
|
Zeta II - layer build version of Zeta I, exact composition unknown but 'derived from Zeta I':
|
Omega: a 'premium' version of Zeta II substituting aluminium for some steel components

Will keep my ear to the ground...

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by stevz

This thread is about VF Commodore. Can't we have a thread to discuss the actual car, without you hijacking it to incessantly harp on about politics and financial figures which nobody really cares about?

So steer it back with some new info....and in your post you can only correctly state YOU don't care about fin. figures because to the more informed it's those figures which wholely and solely dictate what any product turns out to be or wether it continues to remain, lol... I've come to learn that jpd80 never spreads crap and when he finds out he may be wrong he's the first to say so...I make it a point of reading all his posts....

[stevz]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

So steer it back with some new info....and in your post you can only correctly state YOU don't care about fin. figures because to the more informed it's those figures which wholely and solely dictate what any product turns out to be or wether it continues to remain, lol... I've come to learn that jpd80 never spreads crap and when he finds out he may be wrong he's the first to say so...I make it a point of reading all his posts....

Yeah well good for you. Why don't you and jpd80 start your own thread where you can have your own little love fest instead of constantly taking other threads off topic. Some people actually have a life and dont sit there day and night analysing every little intimate detail of gm and ford's financial departments.

[flappist]

Keep it civil and on topic guys

[chevypower]

How about Gen V V8s? I know rumors point to a 5.5L, but I keep reading 5.3L OHV with DI & VCT, and a 6.2 OHC or DOHC with DI. I would have thought the only difference between two offerings would be the displacement, so I am not convinced this is accurate.

[blk6t]

I for one think it's fantastic that there is an apparent plan to further develop the Commodore, at least for the interim, with export program in place...

I'm quite convinced the VF Commodore will be superior in a lot of areas when compared to the Falcon. We all know the large car segment is shrinking, so it is now a battle to secure as much of that segment as possible. Areas that car buyers are interested in are gadgets, economy (with decent performance) and practicality. Holden appear to be addressing these areas very strongly.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by flappist

Keep it civil and on topic guys

Can I suggest he use the ignore function if there is one?

[FGX-351]

Call me an extreme optimist but I stand by my previous statements that I believe large cars will come back and the Falcon will remain a large RWD.

Happened in the 80s right.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by chevypower

How about Gen V V8s? I know rumors point to a 5.5L, but I keep reading 5.3L OHV with DI & VCT, and a 6.2 OHC or DOHC with DI. I would have thought the only difference between two offerings would be the displacement, so I am not convinced this is accurate.

Word was that 5.4 DI V8 and its 8-speed auto were canned for Holden being too expensive but
could we see it in a high series HSV....they have the budget to justify it.

[Dave R]

Spy shots from North America, notice the beefy front brakes. It's also got DRLs and you can kind of make out the shape of the lower front bar. It looks like the tail lights might be integrated into the boot as well, maybe a Camaro-ish theme that they've been applying to their sedans lately?

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/chevrolet-ss-spy-shots/

[Sorted]

[Blue_XR]

Source: Caradvice

2013 Holden Commodore and Chevrolet SS: first look

http://www.caradvice.com.au/188245/2...ss-first-look/