wheels-380vrx v bfxr6 v vzsv6, Falcon wins

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by JEM

So you can instantly assume that the cars are not transformed without even driving them? You are a talented reviewer that's for sure. Why would you even bother test driving a car if you know what it's like, even if the car had one of its most significant driveline components upgraded?

When you have actually driven said car, i will then treat your opinion on the matter with more respect - this one - it's just sour grapes.

I've driven pretty much all variants of BF with the new 6spd auto. Don't under estimate the update, for a end of cycle upgrade, Ford should be given a huge pat on the back. There has been a hell of alot more than just a new box gone into BF. I can tell you, the BF is significantly a different driving experience over BA2, so to me, labelling it as being transformed is totally justified.

OMG, I've created a stir again. Yeeaakes!

OK, it's going to be difficult to respond to all but I'll do my best. ;)

Transmissions are passive components. They do nothing more than transfer power from the engine to the rear wheels via the diff (OK, we all know that). To say that a transmission transforms a car is really overstating thinks, IMHO. If anything, a seamless transmission just makes a vehicle more refined. Much like the attention manufacturers give to NVH... it doesn't exactly transform a vehicle. In fact, the driver shouldn't even notice the modern trans in action, irrespective of the number of forward gears it has. To me, its more about refinement and not something that smacks you in the face and says, "Radical Dude".

A six speed transmission will only give better fuel economy on highway running due to the taller top gear. In city running it might not give the economy gains expected due to the lower gearing, which keeps revs at a theoretically higher rpm. The moment you put your foot down in a 6 speed auto, expect the transmission to better hold revs up high... therefore, increasing fuel consumption.

Don't get me wrong, the ZF 6 spd auto is a brilliant piece of kit and we are lucky to have it in a family sedan of the calibre of the Falcon. But all it does is make a good car all the more satisfying. I'm really being circumspect at Wheels' judging criteria and not Falcon. Besides, I've driven a BA with 4-speed auto and was totally impressed with engine and automatic.

I've been fortunate enough to sample a mate's Audi 1.8T with steptronic 7-speed auto. While the transmission is seamlessly superb, it does no more than do its job. That alone wouldn't make me want to outlay the folding stuff to hop into the Audi, although, on paper, it's a great selling feature. Personally, I don't think it would be noticeably any better than as a 5 or 6 speeder.

There's no sour grapes here. The Falcon is the best all round family car... and has been for a couple of years running.... but the difference to its rivals isn't that great. Don't forget, when Falcon auto had 4 speeds to Magna's 5, the scribes didn't notice (or pretended not to) so it (number of gears) can't be such a BIG factor.

Cheers

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by vztrt

While it does reduce fuel consumption, a bigger difference between the 4-spd and the 6-spd is that it's a smoother ride. The VX i drive occationaly (mums car and she drives it very carefully) bugs me because when it changes gear it isn't smooth. It's been like that since new, and the car dosen't get thrashed.
The car market is competitive and if your going to buy a new car you want a car that drives smoothly. The six speed is a very good step in the right direction as what a car can do in 400m dosn't concern alot of motorists.

Yeah, forget the VX autos... all stone-age. That's why some of the Holden guys are hanging out for the new gen GM autos... they're after refinement from an intelligent auto as opposed to a the one in the VX series. ;)

SV6 VY2/VZ autos are much better - smoother and quite seamless.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Yeah, forget the VX autos... all stone-age. That's why some of the Holden guys are hanging out for the new gen GM autos... they're after refinement from an intelligent auto as opposed to a the one in the VX series. ;)

SV6 VY2/VZ autos are much better - smoother and quite seamless.

Thats the point I was trying to make. When Holden went to the 5-spd there was alot of press about it. I've driven the BA auto and I wasn't that impressed, and was glad I got the manual.

I just hope the 6-spd is more responsive as well as being smoother.

[Smoke Pursuit]

The six speed auto has NOT transformed the car... I drove one yesturday after getting out of my BA Four Speed XR6 and it wasn't crazy better, it was better to drive but it certainly hasn't changed the car drematically!

It was a auto with 2 extra gears and better fuel consumption, its a sweet box but seriously it doesn't make the BA look like a heap of junk! :

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by vztrt

The VX i drive occationaly (mums car and she drives it very carefully) bugs me because when it changes gear it isn't smooth. It's been like that since new, and the car dosen't get thrashed.

Same with my mum's VT. If you put the foot down it won't change until you back off a bit and when it does engage the next gear, it's rough as hell. She also drives it carefully. Hell I can do smoother changes in my manual car and its 11 years older than the VT. It's still nice, but damn my car is more exciting to drive.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Same with my mum's VT. If you put the foot down it won't change until you back off a bit and when it does engage the next gear, it's rough as hell. She also drives it carefully. Hell I can do smoother changes in my manual car and its 11 years older than the VT. It's still nice, but damn my car is more exciting to drive.

My old Camry/Apollo (93 model) seemed smoother. I mean it's still a nice car, but this six speed should be much better.

[SSBUB]

an edit helps heaps with autos - simple remedy :P

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by vztrt

My old Camry/Apollo (93 model) seemed smoother. I mean it's still a nice car, but this six speed should be much better.

LMFAO we had a 93/94 Holden Apollo too before we got the VT. I cant'remember that far back though lol.

[zetec]

Originally Posted by SSBUB

no, but u know what i mean...its like comparing apples to oranges. You have an outdated model against a new one. The VE is what, 8 months away or something? I think the BF vs VE would be BETTER, simply coz thats the opposing makes in time. This little window period between holdens next make will always work in Ford favour, simply coz they get the BF out quicker and the new model is almost always superior.
Im not saying it should be VE vs BF, but really, what is wrong with that scenario?

There's only one problem with that. There was nothing stopping Holden from making the VZ as good an update as BF... yet they didn't.

Fair comparison is a comparison between what I can walk into the three showrooms tomorrow and purchase for my money. I'm not going to cuddle up on the lounge and pull out my kleenex and sympathise for Holden's poor lack of effort. I want the best car for my money and I'll damn well get it too.

People keep looking for excuses all the time. Point is, for the money, size and spec, the XR6 here is proven as the best car of the 3 based on the common test parameters offered by Wheels. Sounds fair enough and any car can win on its own merits, it's just that the merits of the BF XR6 are too hard to argue with. :

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

LMFAO we had a 93/94 Holden Apollo too before we got the VT. I cant'remember that far back though lol.

My old man still drives ours (he loves that car, even if I cained the crap out of it) but I remeber driving mine and it seemed smoother than the old 4-spd.

Dont get me wrong I like the VX, but i'm glad the 4-spd is leaving/gone.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by zetec

There's only one problem with that. There was nothing stopping Holden from making the VZ as good an update as BF... yet they didn't.

Fair comparison is a comparison between what I can walk into the three showrooms tomorrow and purchase for my money. I'm not going to cuddle up on the lounge and pull out my kleenex and sympathise for Holden's poor lack of effort. I want the best car for my money and I'll damn well get it too.

People keep looking for excuses all the time. Point is, for the money, size and spec, the XR6 here is proven as the best car of the 3 based on the common test parameters offered by Wheels. Sounds fair enough and any car can win on its own merits, it's just that the merits of the BF XR6 are too hard to argue with. :

OK, you win. But don't forget, the comparison was between a 6-speed auto Falcon XR6 vs rivals. It was not the base 4-speeder which costs significantly less as a base buy. The base Commode and 380 come with 5-speed autos standard. Wheels chose to compare the best of Falcon against the standard fair rivals thus putting it in a supposedly better light. Wheels sure fooled you, hey? ;)

That is why I am critical of Wheels and mags in general... and precisely why I stopped buying mags after collecting them each month since January, 1983.

EDIT: I stand corrected, the VZ Executive still retains the clunky 4-speed auto, which I believed was a fleet only option... but my point remains, Wheels tend to compare the latest and greatest with the old.

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

OK, you win. But don't forget, the comparison was between a 6-speed auto Falcon XR6 vs rivals. It was not the base 4-speeder which costs significantly less as a base buy. The base Commode and 380 come with 5-speed autos standard. Wheels chose to compare the best of Falcon against the standard fair rivals thus putting it in a supposedly better light. Wheels sure fooled you, hey? ;)

That is why I am critical of Wheels and mags in general... and precisely why I stopped buying mags after collecting them each month since January, 1983.

if the prices are comparable ... then so be it

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

OK, you win. But don't forget, the comparison was between a 6-speed auto Falcon XR6 vs rivals. It was not the base 4-speeder which costs significantly less as a base buy. The base Commode and 380 come with 5-speed autos standard. Wheels chose to compare the best of Falcon against the standard fair rivals thus putting it in a supposedly better light. Wheels sure fooled you, hey? ;)

That is why I am critical of Wheels and mags in general... and precisely why I stopped buying mags after collecting them each month since January, 1983.

Bah!

You will NEVER get a completely fair comparison.

At the moment the 5 speed auto is the best one GM Oz have, Mitsu you have no choice and it just happens that the 6 speed auto is available on falcons, stiff crap to the competition; thats just how it is. I will just about guarantee that 90% of private buyers will get the 6 speed once they drive it, regardless of cost. Fleet buyers I couldn't give a hoot about, although it is a fair chunk of the sales; but it still doesn't mean we cant compare the best to the best.

Problem is that GM is just not good enough at the moment, perhaps that will change with VE.

It was like comparing AU V8's to LS1's; a little unfair but you can only compare what is on the market at that time.

[SSbaby]

Yes but the point is... it makes the 380 look worse when compared to the better offerings from Ford and Holden. I wonder how a base 380 would compare against Ford and Holden's standard packs? I dare say it would be placed the 380 in a much better light and I'm sure the fleets would like to know as well. A little unfair... but it's never ever stopped Wheels comparing one car against other cars at over twice the price.

[zetec]

"You forgot to mention the superior engine and suspension too. Oh wait, that in turn makes the Ford quite a superior vehicle in the end." (quoted off ls1.com from a VT Wagon owner!)

Good to see Holden fans able to admit that and I am happy that we too here aren't generally Ford bogans sprouting the wonders of unbeatable Fords all day long. Good cars deserve a good rating, simple. Credit where credit's due. At the end of the day competition breeds advancement and I won't have a bar of this bias rubbish that some individuals cry about. The bias line is nothing more than a cover up for a bad case of buyers remorse or even one-eyed blindness.

I'd dare say that the BF 4 speed auto XR6 would still give the SV6 more than a run for its money. Would be an interesting comparison. The BA vs VZ one however gave the BA the gong from memory so BF should only be better even with the 4-speed, because even it contains improvements and new technology.

What it boils down to is a disappointing Mitsubishi 380 in the end. It's just a shame the regular local competition isn't really seriously being challenged, but to be fair it's not a RWD even though it's still a direct competitor in almost every other respect. I will reserve my own judgement of the car until I get the chance to drive one, until then I trust Wheels and wish the BF the best of luck!!!

[Dave_au]

Actually I've just finished reading the actual wheels article and its more positive to the 380 than what we initially thought. Wooden spoon goes to the Commodore.

Originally Posted by Wheels article

- Turn the VRX's ignition key however and the 380s positive aspects kick into life... when applying lock, the steering's crisp feel and measured eagerness makes the 380 a confidence-inspiring car to drive - dampered only moderately by audible rack rattle and sudden kickback over sharp edges

-For such a big front driver, the 380 displays excellent poise and even feels noticebly more wieldy than the decent handling Magna

-Best of all, are Mitsubishi's ride quality and refinement. Despite the VRX's sports suspension, it's ride is supple yet disciplined. For a sporty sedan, the VRX is wonderfully confortable and relaxing - a feeling heighted by its excellent, deeply bolstered seats and generally hushed road noise.

-The 380 makes its most substantial gains on Magna in cabin space however. It's now almost as roomy as Falcon, with superior rear seat room to commodore. All up, rear seat accomodation just falls shy of Falcon's excellent fare.

-The 380 is impressive in all areas we expected - seating, space, refinement, body strength, dynamics and drivetrain smoothness.. but is dragged down by its downmarket cabin, plastics, a lack of attention to interior detail.

Final Scores:

BF Falcon XR6
4.5/5
For: BF Falcon clearly best local Ford ever - high class, fun, great value
Against: Steering response could be more progressive, side airbags extra

Holden Commodore Sv6
2.5/5
For: Feisty engine/gearbox team, sharp turn in, handsome styling, room
Against: Engine noise, steering on-cetre vagueness, unrefined ride quality

Mitsubishi 380 VRX
3.5/5
For:Roomy and comfy cabin, great ride quality, refinement, handling, value
Against: Hard, mismatched plastics, bland styling, ugly tilt only steeringwheel.

[Ghiadude]

just as a side note,

The prices were as follows:
XR6: 39,710 (as tested: 42,650 – includes Zf 6spd, brakes were 298mm and 303 at the rear)
SV6: 39, 690 (as tested: 40,005)
VRX: 39,990 (as tested: 45,290 – includes auto and sunroof))

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by tx3dude

just as a side note,

The prices were as follows:
XR6: 39,710 (as tested: 42,650 – includes Zf 6spd, brakes were 298mm and 303 at the rear)
SV6: 39, 690 (as tested: 40,005)
VRX: 39,990 (as tested: 45,290 – includes auto and sunroof))

is that with the employee discount?...lol
:

I agree zetec..even if the xr6 had the 4spd im sure it would be on par, if not better than the sV6 anyway.

I feel sory for the mitsu guys though, ive heard the interior sucks **** aswell, hard and cheap looking/feeling.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

OK, you win. But don't forget, the comparison was between a 6-speed auto Falcon XR6 vs rivals. It was not the base 4-speeder which costs significantly less as a base buy. The base Commode and 380 come with 5-speed autos standard. Wheels chose to compare the best of Falcon against the standard fair rivals thus putting it in a supposedly better light. Wheels sure fooled you, hey? ;)

That is why I am critical of Wheels and mags in general... and precisely why I stopped buying mags after collecting them each month since January, 1983.

EDIT: I stand corrected, the VZ Executive still retains the clunky 4-speed auto, which I believed was a fleet only option... but my point remains, Wheels tend to compare the latest and greatest with the old.

Rubbish, they test what the can get there hands on.

At the end of the day its a fact that the xr6 is the sv6's direct competitor regardless of spec. So if you can option a 6 speed then good, time for the competition to catch up. I think its more of a case than you GM blokes are not used to being behind with regards to accelleration which is the case here.

Didn't they test a HSV against an AMG and a M series? yes its a joke that you could even think it, but on the other hand the cars are pretty close when it comes to performance regardless of options.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

OK, you win. But don't forget, the comparison was between a 6-speed auto Falcon XR6 vs rivals. It was not the base 4-speeder which costs significantly less as a base buy. The base Commode and 380 come with 5-speed autos standard. Wheels chose to compare the best of Falcon against the standard fair rivals thus putting it in a supposedly better light. Wheels sure fooled you, hey? ;)

Hang on, The 6 speed is the only auto avalable with the XR6, just as the 5 speed auto is the only auto that comes with the SV6. The S/SV6 has ALWAYS been rivals with the XR6 just as the SS has ALWAYS been rivals with the XR8.
So just to clarify what you have said in that quote (or what it looked like to me) is that wheels compared the best of falcon (XR6) with standard fare commo (SV6). You're saying that the SV6 is a standard basic model, and therefore not the direct compeditor to the XR6 : Cuz if its not, then i don't know what is....

[ED Classic]

Bring on 6 Auto XR6T and F6

I beleive the 380 is ok for looks but man what a massive step backwards in terms of the weight going up nearly 200kg and the fuel consumption going out to more than Falcon + Commodore. Discounted 380's anyone?

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Danny

Hang on, The 6 speed is the only auto avalable with the XR6, just as the 5 speed auto is the only auto that comes with the SV6. The S/SV6 has ALWAYS been rivals with the XR6 just as the SS has ALWAYS been rivals with the XR8.
So just to clarify what you have said in that quote (or what it looked like to me) is that wheels compared the best of falcon (XR6) with standard fare commo (SV6). You're saying that the SV6 is a standard basic model, and therefore not the direct compeditor to the XR6 : Cuz if its not, then i don't know what is....

6 speed auto is an option on the BF XR6 NA. (bout $1200 i think)

[MITCHAY]

I saw a 380 VRX today in the flesh. It does look good but damn at least with the old VRX you could pick it a mile off from the base model. Why isn't there a chunky kit and big wheels on this model? I thought it was a base 380 until I was right on it's as and say the VRX badge.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by vztrt

6 speed auto is an option on the BF XR6 NA. (bout $1200 i think)

Yeah your right, but it doesn't matter, option a sunroof on the sv6 and they are around teh same price :

[Danny]

Originally Posted by vztrt

6 speed auto is an option on the BF XR6 NA. (bout $1200 i think)

Its still the Premium Auto gearbox, just as the Commodores 5 speed auto is their premium box' so its no way an unfair comparo.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Danny

Hang on, The 6 speed is the only auto avalable with the XR6, just as the 5 speed auto is the only auto that comes with the SV6. The S/SV6 has ALWAYS been rivals with the XR6 just as the SS has ALWAYS been rivals with the XR8.
So just to clarify what you have said in that quote (or what it looked like to me) is that wheels compared the best of falcon (XR6) with standard fare commo (SV6). You're saying that the SV6 is a standard basic model, and therefore not the direct compeditor to the XR6 : Cuz if its not, then i don't know what is....

Not quite. I was a little incorrect in my first comment as I thought the 5 speed auto was now the standard box for the Commodore Executive but I since discovered that the 4-speed clunker, is still the standard fare.

What I attempted to point out was that Wheels put Falcon in a better light against the 380 because they compared Falcon XR6 6-speed auto against the 380 competing in the same segment (price-wise) and also the SV6 for good measure.

That said, I think it would have been a different outcome if the base 380 were compared to the Falcon 4-speed though I think the Commodore would be an outcast with its stone-age 4-speed clunker. Don't forget, these are fleet cars and fleets are price sensitive.

All I am trying to add is that the comparison was slightly skewed ... and Wheels took a cheap shot at the 380 and SV6 to highlight the virtues of the new 6-speed auto, which I tend to believe is no-where near the transformation that the magazine would lead you to believe... and remember, I have driven a 7-speed steptronic auto in the Audi 1.8T.

I don't know why Wheels chose not to review the 380 in isolation, just as Motor did. I guess they tried to kill two birds with the one stone (pun intended - 380 and SV6). ;)

Not everyone will be happy when there is a comparison. I'm sure when VE is released that it will probably be a better overall car than the Falcon, and as a result we here may all winge that it was unfair.

Fact is they are all "current" models and it is a fair comparison. Dare I say that the XR6 would still have won the comparison with the 4 speed auto, but by not as much. Can you imagine the arguements that would have caused!

So please spare us with the "not a fair comparison" crap as it's just a poor excuse.

The 380 and the SV6 are by no means bad cars, in fact I don't think there are any terrible cars out there anymore. It's just that the BF is a simple, yet effective drivetrain led upgrade that some can't seemed to understand.

Originally Posted by tx3dude

just as a side note,

The prices were as follows:
XR6: 39,710 (as tested: 42,650 – includes Zf 6spd, brakes were 298mm and 303 at the rear)
SV6: 39, 690 (as tested: 40,005)
VRX: 39,990 (as tested: 45,290 – includes auto and sunroof))

For the comparison the cars had:

XR6: 6 speed auto, Premium sound, metallic paint and adjustable pedals.
SV6: Metallic Paint.
VRX: Leather/ Electric seat upgrade, Sunroof, Metallic Paint.


I love this bit:

Redbook 3 year resale %:

XR6: 61% (BA)
SV6: 55%

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by RATT

Not everyone will be happy when there is a comparison. I'm sure when VE is released that it will probably be a better overall car than the Falcon, and as a result we here may all winge that it was unfair.

Fact is they are all "current" models and it is a fair comparison. Dare I say that the XR6 would still have won the comparison with the 4 speed auto, but by not as much. Can you imagine the arguements that would have caused!

So please spare us with the "not a fair comparison" crap as it's just a poor excuse.

The 380 and the SV6 are by no means bad cars, in fact I don't think there are any terrible cars out there anymore. It's just that the BF is a simple, yet effective drivetrain led upgrade that some can't seemed to understand.

I agree. I don't think it would be fair to compare the VE to BF either... but being out on the market at the same time would be a good chance for Wheels to flog more magaizines.

I think the market is intelligent enough not to literally take into account what was written in the article. The market has always been price sensitive in this segment as well as conservative, hence their preference for RWDs over FWDs. Sales results have never reflected results of comparos in 'reputable' magazines.

Whether the comparison was fair or not is immaterial... its just an article that not many, apart from diehard fans of the blue oval and lion, would take seriously. As I said, the 6-speed auto alone isn't enough to make shoppers consider a Falcon... just as the 5 speed SV6 auto wasn't enough to persuade shoppers away from Falcon. But gee, Wheels, give the 380 a break!

[4Vman]

When is VE due for release? surely BF2 will be out by then?