Roundabout Incident - Who is at Fault?

[aussiblue]

Marty's fate:

[arronm]

Red car in wrong. But 4wd should have been paying more attention.

[Venomous1]

Red car must go right left lane can go left or right so Red car is at fault can't jump to the left.

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by JasonACT

So cam car can't go "straight" through the roundabout in the left hand lane? (What he was trying to do.)

Well.

Have a closer look ... due to the line marking in the roundabout.
He crossed a solid line .... implying ... you can't really actually go "straight ahead" on an angle to the 2nd exit.

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by PG2

This is the point of contact...

image


This is only my opinion, but the cam car is not facing to turn left but is continuing in the direction of the roundabout.

But crossed a SOLID white line to do so.

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by snap0964

This is my favourite (the sign clears a few things up ?):

image

A lot of people still go that one wrong as well.
But definitely better signed.

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

Read the sign carefully guys:

image


and note they are exiting on the Boulevarde and the can driver might be intending to exit on Kiora Road. Cam driver is therefor in the right.

That's a completely different roundabout down near Port Hacking ... not at Ingleburn though

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by snap0964

I think the solid line (and there's one too on the opposite side of that roundabout too) is there for those on the roundabout RH lane turning right into that road, so those turning left don't try to merge too early.

Yep, that's what I thought when I looked at the lines on Google earth and saw it replicated on the opposite side but not on the other two, simple stuff really.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

They're both at fault - clearly either of them didn't follow standard roundabout operating procedure

A) If in doubt, close eyes and wide open throttle

B) If its clear, stop at the roundabout anyway.

We need to pit these two drivers against one another at Melbourne's Haymarket Roundabout:



Or that silly one when you come into Adelaide which is like one roundabout feeding into another roundabout? Britannia Roundabout - cause when one roundabout and retarded Australian drivers isn't enough we can have twice the amount of fun

image

Pah, piece of ****......

Try this.....

[Sioso]

Red car is at fault, but if just one of them got off their brakes early and carried more speed through the roundabout this whole incident would have been avoided

[roKWiz]

Reading this thread has convinced me more now that Aussie motorists should re-sit their drivers licence at least once every 5 years.
Apart from the blinding obvious why do some here bang on about crossing that unbroken line on the road when there are so many situations where it is legal to do so.

or....We really need to familiarise ourselves with the motor traffic road rules book (in our state as well as others) at least once a year.

[Mechan1k]

It also shows that different links for different states ... have different legislation as well.
So interstate drivers know it differently from others.

Surely in this day and age it should all be the same across the country.

[roKWiz]

Yeh spot on, like I mentioned in the NSW drivers licence thread.

[BENT_8]

Ive just passed through 2 dual lanes roundabouts in the past 15 minutes on my morning run and both have the same short white line as in the video and both had cars passing over them in the left lane which made me think if you couldn't cross them then what would be the point of the section of left lane ane between the exit and next entry point as no one could use it.

[Lunch]

Both lanes have two directional options as indicated twice by the arrows marked on the road and a large sign showing the layout upon approach, enabling all drivers to assess where they’re going and in which lane they need to be in to get to where they want to go prior to arriving at the roundabout.

Left lane: turn left or continue straight

Right lane: turn right or continue straight

Car in left lane continues straight, car in right lane turns left.

It’s unfortunate that the last set of road marking has the straight arrow lining up with the left turn exit but that’s not the camera cars fault.
The lane marking in the roundabout itself is guidance for more than the traffic flowing in the direction in this video, the solid line he attempted to cross is for the left hand lane of traffic coming from the right of screen, indicating that a right turn is not permissible from the left lane but if you’re relying on the lane marking lines in an intersection to tell you where to go then it’s too late, you need to be able to assess before entering any intersection, same with merging and overtaking or any situation while behind the wheel, you don’t put yourself past the point of no return before understanding the risk, if you can’t do that, you shouldn’t be driving.

In no circumstance anywhere, are you able to turn left from the right lane if the left lane has the option of going straight.

[Glen 5150]

The red car is at fault, but to be brutally honest if I was new to that area or roundabout I could of easily made that same mistake. Those line markings are shocking, and you would expect there to be a 90* left turn where that gutter is. As I said, if I was new to the area in the right lane and both lanes were heavy traffic and I couldn't see to my left or the car to my left obstructed my view, I would automatically think I had passed the first exit on the left by those road markings.

[EBSXR6]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

It also shows that different links for different states ... have different legislation as well.
So interstate drivers know it differently from others.

Surely in this day and age it should all be the same across the country.

I think there are still a few differences.
Hook Turns?

I haven't driven North of the Murray for years but if I remember correctly in NSW if your at an intersection with traffic lights that allows straight ahead and turns from a lane and only the arrow signal is green you have to turn in the direction of the arrow signal even though you may only want to go straight.
In Vic you do not have to turn and can wait until the green signal to proceed straight.

Has NSW changed any of the rules with regards to Light Rail and Roundabouts?

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by EBSXR6

I think there are still a few differences.
Hook Turns?

I haven't driven North of the Murray for years but if I remember correctly in NSW if your at an intersection with traffic lights that allows straight ahead and turns from a lane and only the arrow signal is green you have to turn in the direction of the arrow signal even though you may only want to go straight.
In Vic you do not have to turn and can wait until the green signal to proceed straight.

No.

I go through an intersection off Blaxland Rd near Eastwood of a morning onto Lovell Rd.

Angled T-intersection.

Blaxland Rd is dual laned ... and the left lane gets a green left arrow but can have a Red straight through (due to Lovell Rd getting a green to come out.

either lane cane go straight ... and if red for the straight ... you are not forced to turn left on the green (some drivers get the irrits and like to use their horn as they have to sit behind you).

At the same near home coming off Northern Rd into Bradley Street as well.

You are not forced to turn left if both lanes are allowed to proceed straight.

Now is the left lane is a Left turn only ... that's a different story.

[EBSXR6]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

No.

You are not forced to turn left if both lanes are allowed to proceed straight.

Now is the left lane is a Left turn only ... that's a different story.

I was thinking back to the late 70s early 80s had not been driving very long and I went to the RACV for information on the road rules before heading North and there was a few differences and I thought the example I quoted was one of them.

I think at that time the towing speed limit for a Caravan may have been lower than Vic as well.

[Trevor 57]

the red car absolutely at fault, a couple of points

* Look at the road marking leading up to the roundabout - pretty ****ing simple
* when turning left you must be in the left lane - pretty ****ing simple
* when turning right you must be in the right lane - pretty ****ing simple
* when going straight you can be in either lanes (unless road marking indicate different), in this case the line markings are 'pretty ****ing simple'

anyone who thinks anything else needs to go back and re-sit their licence test

[Sioso]

Originally Posted by Lunch

Both lanes have two directional options as indicated twice by the arrows marked on the road and a large sign showing the layout upon approach, enabling all drivers to assess where they’re going and in which lane they need to be in to get to where they want to go prior to arriving at the roundabout.

Left lane: turn left or continue straight

Right lane: turn right or continue straight

Car in left lane continues straight, car in right lane turns left.

It’s unfortunate that the last set of road marking has the straight arrow lining up with the left turn exit but that’s not the camera cars fault.
The lane marking in the roundabout itself is guidance for more than the traffic flowing in the direction in this video, the solid line he attempted to cross is for the left hand lane of traffic coming from the right of screen, indicating that a right turn is not permissible from the left lane but if you’re relying on the lane marking lines in an intersection to tell you where to go then it’s too late, you need to be able to assess before entering any intersection, same with merging and overtaking or any situation while behind the wheel, you don’t put yourself past the point of no return before understanding the risk, if you can’t do that, you shouldn’t be driving.

In no circumstance anywhere, are you able to turn left from the right lane if the left lane has the option of going straight.

Agree totally, there are 3 exiting options on the roundabout and those 3 options are marked on the road entering the roundabout.
If the lane on your left entering the roundabout has 2 options marked on it how could you possibly think you could take the first exit on your left from the right lane.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Ok, about time I provided my thoughts on this.

Red car is in the wrong.

Here's the relevant Victorian rules (and since the road rules have been nationalised, I assume other states are either the same or very similar in this regard) that apply in this situation. All rules available here:

Authorised Version No. 001
Road Safety Road Rules 2017
S.R. No. 41/2017
Authorised Version as at
1 July 2017

(my bolding)

110 Meaning of halfway around a roundabout
A driver leaves a roundabout halfway around
the roundabout if the driver leaves the roundabout
on a road that is straight ahead, or substantially
straight ahead, from the road on which the driver
enters the roundabout.

111 Entering a roundabout from a multi-lane road or a
road with 2 or more lines of traffic travelling in the
same direction
(1) A driver entering a roundabout from a multi-lane
road, or a road with room for 2 or more lines of
traffic (other than motor bikes, bicycles, or
animals) travelling in the same direction as the
driver, must enter the roundabout in accordance
with this rule.
Penalty: 3 penalty units.
Note
Multi-lane road is defined in the dictionary.
(2) If the driver is to leave the roundabout less
than halfway around it, the driver must enter
the roundabout from the left marked lane or,
if the road is not a multi-lane road, as near as
practicable to the left side of the road.
Note
Marked lane is defined in the dictionary.

Example
Example 1
Leaving a roundabout less than halfway around it


(4) If the driver is to leave the roundabout halfway
around it, the driver may enter the roundabout
from any marked lane or, if the road is not a
multi-lane road, anywhere on the part of the
road on which vehicles travelling in the same
direction as the driver may travel.

Example
Example 3
Leaving a roundabout halfway around it


(5) Despite subrules (2) to (4), if the driver is entering
the roundabout from a marked lane and there are
traffic lane arrows applying to the lane, the driver
must—
(a) if the arrows indicate a single direction—
drive in that direction after entering the
roundabout; or
(b) if the arrows indicate 2 or more directions—
drive in one of those directions after entering
the roundabout.

Examples
Example 4
Roundabout with 3 entry points


Example 5
Roundabout with 5 entry points


Notes for examples 4 and 5
1 Rule 116 requires a driver to obey traffic lane arrows
when driving in or leaving a roundabout.
2 The rules in Part 11 about driving in marked lanes,
and moving from one marked lane or line of traffic
to another marked lane or line of traffic, apply to a
driver driving in a roundabout—see rules 146 to 148.

116 Obeying traffic lane arrows when driving in or
leaving a roundabout
If a driver is driving in a marked lane in a
roundabout and there are traffic lane arrows
applying to the lane, the driver must—
(a) if the arrows indicate a single direction—
drive in or leave the roundabout in that
direction; or
(b) if the arrows indicate 2 or more directions—
drive in or leave the roundabout in one of
those directions.
Penalty: 3 penalty units.
Note
Marked lane and traffic lane arrows are defined in the
dictionary.

So, my interpretation of the above rules is that the red car should have either been in the left lane to exit onto Macquarie Rd (NE bound), as they attempted to, or exited to stay on Henderson Rd (SE bound), exited onto Macquarie Rd (SW bound) or exited onto Henderson Rd (NW bound) from the right hand lane, as they were in.

But (and there's always a but!). There's a couple of contributing factors that may have made this situation a bit murky:

The roundabout is not the 'standard' 90-degree angle 4 way roundabout. The below image shows that it may be interpreted as though the first exit (Macquarie Rd NE bound) is the 'substantially straight ahead' road as per the road rule definitions.



The sign as per this image, clarifies the situation, however.



I also think that the painted arrows on entry to the roundabout from Henderson Rd NW carriageway could be misleading. if you look at the image below, the straight ahead arrows appear to align more with the Macquarie Rd NE exit than they do with the Henderson Rd SE exit.



And, lastly, the white line marking on the exit to Macquarie Rd NE bound (as others have already pointed out) indicates that any vehicle in the left lane must exit on to Macquarie Rd NE bound. This doesn't appear to be consistent with the arrow markings, so is a potential source of confusion.



If I was to regularly travel that roundabout, and I was intending to enter and exit as per the 4wd's intentions, i would be staying in the right hand lane, as that would minimise the risk of just such an event occurring.

I find it interesting as to how many people, even on this forum where you'd expect a reasonably high level of understanding of the road rules, interpret things differently. For example, I see the number of the exit you are taking as being a reference for which lane you should be in. The road rules make no reference to exit numbers.

Hopefully at least one person gets some use out of this thread. My whole purpose of posting this was to openly discuss people's opinion and interpretations, and then provide some education to those who weren't so sure of the rules. It never hurts to refresh your understanding every now and then.

[Bushbasher]

Red car driver will cop the cost of repairs, as is in the wrong by turning left from the right lane. Cam guy needs a slap for driving like a DlCK at speed into, and trying to drive around the red car on said roundabout.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Reading this thread has convinced me more now that Aussie motorists should re-sit their drivers licence at least once every 5 years.
Apart from the blinding obvious why do some here bang on about crossing that unbroken line on the road when there are so many situations where it is legal to do so.

or....We really need to familiarise ourselves with the motor traffic road rules book (in our state as well as others) at least once a year.

Yeah well it may be OK for youse young blokes to make us oldies sit for an exam for our licence but I have enough stress behind the wheel already with failing eyesight and deafness (from my wife who constantly yells LOOKOUT!).

I mean I try to do the right thing but walk a mile in my shoes for a minute.

Imagine driving down the road and after 20 minutes fatigue starts to set in because nanna nap time is approaching. Add to that a full bladder that over the years has lost its 'elasticity' for want of a better word and I won't even mention that I am not game to fart.

I have already brake tested three blokes in those scourge of the roads the bigmuthauteswithbullbars and to teach them a lesson I keep slowing down on single lanes and speed up when we hit a divided road.

And to make matters worse, that community FM radio station that plays real country music starts to fade out at the town limits.

Is it any wonder my hair is grey and the last stressful thing I need in my life is to fail a licence test, again.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by Bushbasher

Red car driver will cop the cost of repairs, as is in the wrong by turning left from the right lane. Cam guy needs a slap for driving like a DlCK at speed into, and trying to drive around the red car on said roundabout.

^^^^^^^^This Sums The situation up. In a Nutshell..

[ford71V8]

Thread has pretty much covered how the red car did the wrong thing....and I agree, you can't turn right at the 1st exit from the RH lane. (even when the 1st exit looks like the follow on of the road you are on, typically the 2nd exit)



But I can imagine a scenario that the Cam car is the local and the red car doesn't use this roundabout too often, if at all before.
I see a few intersections, some with 'unique' markings, that only work from being used by the regulars. This is not something that should be relied upon.

We have a couple of T junctions near home. 60km roads meeting the 80k main road.
Instead of roundabouts at each of these, some have a tapered merger lane painted down the centre of the 80k road. You can tell which people that use them are the locals. Some 'visitors' don't like the idea of sitting in between 2 lanes of 80k traffic preparing to merge because you feel a bit like a sitting duck there. However, if you wait at the end of the 60k road for a break in traffic to make the RH turn, you will be waiting a loooong time and likely get honked on from the local behind.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by xeeclipse

IT'S A SINGLE LANE ENTRY ROUNDABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!

How can anyone put the blame on the RED vehicle I will never know??!!!!!

solid line or not the driver in the ute should throw his keys away. I'm by no means an exemplary driver but.....hang your head in shame!!!!!

have another look before you go shouting in capitals. its clearly two lanes.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Cav

Yeah well it may be OK for youse young blokes to make us oldies sit for an exam for our licence but I have enough stress behind the wheel already with failing eyesight and deafness (from my wife who constantly yells LOOKOUT!).

I mean I try to do the right thing but walk a mile in my shoes for a minute.

Imagine driving down the road and after 20 minutes fatigue starts to set in because nanna nap time is approaching. Add to that a full bladder that over the years has lost its 'elasticity' for want of a better word and I won't even mention that I am not game to fart.

I have already brake tested three blokes in those scourge of the roads the bigmuthauteswithbullbars and to teach them a lesson I keep slowing down on single lanes and speed up when we hit a divided road.

And to make matters worse, that community FM radio station that plays real country music starts to fade out at the town limits.

Is it any wonder my hair is grey and the last stressful thing I need in my life is to fail a licence test, again.

This sounds like half the drivers here in the caravan park I'm currently staying at. Cav
Very entertaining watching them go round and round cause they don't know how to back a trailer or the misses is standing behind the caravan outside the drivers vision waving him directions.

[Mechan1k]

Post #114 clearly shows dual lane entry roundabout in the diagrams and sat imagery provided

[Vesper Martini]

It's really is a poor design and signage.

If straight ahead lane (as it seems) is actually the left turn, why does it have two lanes feeding into it?

according to the arrows beforehand there should be only one "first exit"

Red car looks to be at Fault, but there's solid lines crossed too,

and IMO if you left lane people you need to be more aware..