Why the ICE will be produced for longer than people realise

[kypez]

Originally Posted by kmav23

Elon Musk is the 4th richest person in the world and the share price is almost $2,000.



The transition to Evs will be rapid in about 3 years when costs fall and capacity increases.



All the big money is being thrown into EVs, autonomy, 5g and batteries.



rapid advances is EVs autonomy car sharing etc..



Netflix Amazon uber YouTube..



Ice cars are on the way out

Please Don't turn this into a share price and a worship of Elon thread. We already have one of those.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Only in Europe and China where they are ramming electric vehicles down people's throats,

ICEs will be with us in the form of hybrids much longer than most think, cheaper batteries

means that hybrids also become cheaper as an alternative to high priced BEVs. There's

no range anxiety, no need to recharge for hours, life goes on as before but with cheaper

fuel bills.

Again, no need to recharge at fast chargers for hours and hours and range anxiety is only a thing for people who have never owned an electric car...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kypez

Again, no need to recharge at fast chargers for hours and hours and range anxiety is only a thing for people who have never owned an electric car...

At the moment that's more than 99% of buyers in the Australian vehicle market.

Electric vehicle saless are still in their infancy here but some insist that our market will
see massive take up in three years, that could be so but in the now, EVs are just a novelty
product owned by people who want to be seen in a Tesla.

The economy is still being savaged by the virus and the long term damage in permanent
loss of jobs is still to be felt. So the heavy lifting with EV purchases in the next few years
will have to come from people who can take big financial commitments in their stride.

Sorry for the edits, I'm trying to choose my words to avoid just dismissing those who see
a more rosy future, I just think that manufacturers will reach more people with hybrids.

[Falcon SXR8]

I wouldn't consider a hybrid, its full ice or full electric. I dont want the complexity of both in one vehicle, just seems like its going to be a massive headache out of warranty.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Electric vehicle saless are still in their infancy here but some insist that our market will

see massive take up in three years, that could be so but in the now, EVs are just a novelty

product owned by people who want to be seen in a Tesla.

It's throwaway lines like this that make me think you don't really know what you're talking about. I didn't buy a Tesla cause I cared about what others thought. I bought a BMW i3 initially. It was a demo. Drove it for 3 months while I assessed if it wasn't right for me. It wasn't so I Sold it for $1000 more than I paid for it and got the Tesla which had better range and charging network. I couldn't care less about being seen in a particular car.

Silly comment that says more about your views than others...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kypez

It's throwaway lines like this that make me think you don't really know what you're talking about. I didn't buy a Tesla cause I cared about what others thought. I bought a BMW i3 initially. It was a demo. Drove it for 3 months while I assessed if it wasn't right for me. It wasn't so I Sold it for $1000 more than I paid for it and got the Tesla which had better range and charging network. I couldn't care less about being seen in a particular car.

Silly comment that says more about your views than others...

Your anecdote doesn't make my opinion wrong, Tesla is the go to brand for EVs and many
owners want others to see them in a Tesla, I doubt that would dispute that as most owners
in the US actively promote the brand and get a kick out of being seen in one, no different here.

With respect, you're far from a being an average Joe buyer, very fortunate to sell your i3
for more than you paid and clear that unlike others who buy premium brands, you are
indeed your own person but that doesn't make my assessments wrong.

99% of buyers are still to show an interest in Electric Vehicles and unless something
changes dramatically for the better in the next three years, we will still be here talking
about EVs getting a foothold beyond a small percentage.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Your anecdote doesn't make my opinion wrong, Tesla is the go to brand for EVs and many

owners want others to see them in a Tesla, I doubt that would dispute that as most owners

in the US actively promote the brand and get a kick out of being seen in one, no different here.



With respect, you're far from a being an average Joe buyer, very fortunate to sell your i3

for more than you paid and clear that unlike others who buy premium brands, you are

indeed your own person but that doesn't make my assessments wrong.



99% of buyers are still to show an interest in Electric Vehicles and unless something

changes dramatically for the better in the next three years, we will still be here talking

about EVs getting a foothold beyond a small percentage.

That is true, my anecdote doesn't invalidate your opinion though I hope it does make you question it a bit more.


I know a lot of retirees who have bought into the EV dream of not having to pay for fuel nor servicing but they still wanted to buy something special for themselves. Hence the Tesla club looks more like a geriatric ward (or GT Club!).

And yes, I was lucky to make money on the i3! My purchases are split into emotional (and non negotiable) and pragmatic. The GTF, XR8 are the former. The i3 and Tesla are the latter. If it doesn't work out, got to have no ego to say I got it wrong and move on from the situation before making a loss.

I live in Sydney and drive for fun roughly 40,000 kms a year. I love long drives. The Tesla has done such a good job that we are getting our second one as the ICE serves no purpose at all. I get the old S while the high command gets the new 3.

Won't bored you with the numbers (it's in the other thread), but the break even vs driving a Mustang is about 2 years with my fuel use and after that, it's all in favour of the EV. Sure, don't get the sound and the third pedal, but the savings let me keep my race car going great!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Falcon SXR8

I wouldn't consider a hybrid, its full ice or full electric. I dont want the complexity of both in one vehicle, just seems like its going to be a massive headache out of warranty.

The Prius wasn't an issue, many went on as a second Life as taxis until their batteries finally died after considerable service.
The uptake of RAV4 hybrid took Toyota by surprise but they scrambled and are now matching orders.
Where people see complexity, others se a logical progression that's probably better value than a diesel.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kypez

That is true, my anecdote doesn't invalidate your opinion though I hope it does make you question it a bit more.


I know a lot of retirees who have bought into EV dream of not having to pay for fuel or servicing but they still wanted to buy something special for themselves. Hence the Tesla club looks more like a geriatric ward (or GT Club!).

And yes, I was lucky to make money on the i3! My purchases are split into emotional (and non negotiable) and pragmatic. The GTF, XR8 are the former. The i3 and Tesla are the latter. If it doesn't work out, got to have no ego to say I got it wrong and move on from the situation before making a loss.

I live in Sydney and drive for fun roughly 40,000 kms a year. I love long drives. The Tesla has done such a good job that we are getting our second one as the ICE serves no purpose at all. I get the old S while the high command gets the new 3.

Appreciate your POV, understand that I'm not anti BEV, I just see hybrids as a good way
of getting fence sitters into electrification, change their minds to what the electric side
can do ....open eyes and make the job of converting to EVs easier.

EVs are coming, we just need a bridge to increase weight of numbers.

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by whynot

I disagree with this comment. Without reproducing the story here ... there is quite a bit of information on the internet about the shenanigans of car dealers in the US blocking the entry of Tesla.

Further, there are reports on the internet that disagree with your comment that repair information is presently not available to independent repairers.

https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2...e-to-everyone/

The article shows that Tesla have dragged their feet on releasing the technical documentation and it is only recently they have opened up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PWlkAZCojg

This guy has faced many hurdles dealing with Tesla as an independent repairer. In the video Tesla were questioning why he needed Tesla lug nut covers! The NHTSA were contacted to get Tesla to replace a Takata airbag subject to recall. Also there have been cases where owners pay thousands of dollars for upgrades such as supercharging and it is deactivated when the car is sold. This video shows people who have paid Tesla an exorbitant fee to re-certify their car and get features turned back on, only for Tesla to change their policy and switch them off again. The customer has paid for these at a Tesla approved workshop.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by pauljh74

Also there have been cases where owners pay thousands of dollars for upgrades such as supercharging and it is deactivated when the car is sold.

You option up a car with the expectation that you'll get some of it back come resale. I wouldnt buy a car where I rent fundamental features, only to have them turned off when I sell the car. It's a frankly ridiculous business model, and I imagine were it publicised, it would turn a lot of people off ownership. Resale matters.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by b0son

You option up a car with the expectation that you'll get some of it back come resale. I wouldnt buy a car where I rent fundamental features, only to have them turned off when I sell the car. It's a frankly ridiculous business model, and I imagine were it publicised, it would turn a lot of people off ownership. Resale matters.

Yes it is absurd. Imagine optioning up sat nav in a car, and when you go to sell it the dealer comes around and unhooks the satnav antenna, making it useless

[kypez]

Originally Posted by b0son

You option up a car with the expectation that you'll get some of it back come resale. I wouldnt buy a car where I rent fundamental features, only to have them turned off when I sell the car. It's a frankly ridiculous business model, and I imagine were it publicised, it would turn a lot of people off ownership. Resale matters.

Funnily enough, when I was talking about a buy back program with the car dealership, I was astonished that even with options, the car buy back remained the same or very similar. He said there is no real benefit of having options on a car these days as they command very little in the second hand market.

I've seen this with a few dealerships. Options don't count for much these days. Maybe 1 or 2 private buyers but usually, its for the first owner to enjoy.

None of the features of my Tesla get turned off when I sell other than the offer of Free Supercharging for life as long as I owned the car. I knew that buying the car so wouldn't have any issue when I sold it. The confusion came for a few buyers when it was initally free Supercharging for life of the car which changed to the life of the car for the first owner. People didn't understand or deliberately misinformed the next owner.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by pauljh74

The article shows that Tesla have dragged their feet on releasing the technical documentation and it is only recently they have opened up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PWlkAZCojg

This guy has faced many hurdles dealing with Tesla as an independent repairer. In the video Tesla were questioning why he needed Tesla lug nut covers! The NHTSA were contacted to get Tesla to replace a Takata airbag subject to recall. Also there have been cases where owners pay thousands of dollars for upgrades such as supercharging and it is deactivated when the car is sold. This video shows people who have paid Tesla an exorbitant fee to re-certify their car and get features turned back on, only for Tesla to change their policy and switch them off again. The customer has paid for these at a Tesla approved workshop.

Thats a pretty funny video and is something I don't like with Tesla. They are still a young brand that make mistakes. You should see what they did to my Tesla trying to figure our a problem with the rear air suspension! Drilling my brand new car should never have been an option!

Their service locally was great but they have scaled back or refocused so much on Model 3 that its just not the same anymore. But their cars are epic fun!

[FTE217]

Thats typically a dealers pov kypez as you'd well know.
Why wouldn't they carry on the free charging to the next owner at a agreed set price, afterall they have a new customer to keep making $$$'s from.
When buying pre owned I don't think people look to buy the povo pack much at all.
Your looking to take advantage of depreciation as always and having as much "fruit" as possible at a better than new price.
Options are for the luxury of the 1st owner and for the following owners to enjoy just as much.
I can see Tesla and other brands making sure all their options being their IP and do as they please in the future to consumers.
Afterall you'll be governed more and more by the tech available and owned by xyz company, just as apple and others do with their other products.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Thats typically a dealers pov kypez as you'd well know.
Why wouldn't they carry on the free charging to the next owner at a agreed set price, afterall they have a new customer to keep making $$$'s from.
When buying pre owned I don't think people look to buy the povo pack much at all.
Your looking to take advantage of depreciation as always and having as much "fruit" as possible at a better than new price.
Options are for the luxury of the 1st owner and for the following owners to enjoy just as much.
I can see Tesla and other brands making sure all their options being their IP and do as they please in the future to consumers.
Afterall you'll be governed more and more by the tech available and owned by xyz company, just as apple and others do with their other products.

True. Though sought after doesn't always equate to getting more money for it. Sometimes. Also, what was an option previously might become standard in the next series so you could get the next series for little penalty and have all those options as standard. At least this has been my experience with cars.

Tesla don't have a subscription model on anything bar their internet connectivity these days as they are pushing the data cost to customers (and fair enough). As long as its all upfront, I have no issues with that. My Model S is covered for lifetime but the 3 is included for the first year.

Agreed, its rubbish to think something is standard and that it gets pulled. Features pulled on cars are typically those sold back to Tesla (traded in for example) which makes it a non-issue for the reseller. Sell Privately and the old Supercharging for life (example) transfers.

BMW want to make things like Seat heaters a subscription moving forward! Thats going too far for my liking. But the point and the deviation from the initially topic is this disease isn't isolated to Electric cars. Combustion engines will have the same issues.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by kypez

Funnily enough, when I was talking about a buy back program with the car dealership, I was astonished that even with options, the car buy back remained the same or very similar. He said there is no real benefit of having options on a car these days as they command very little in the second hand market.

I've seen this with a few dealerships. Options don't count for much these days. Maybe 1 or 2 private buyers but usually, its for the first owner to enjoy.

None of the features of my Tesla get turned off when I sell other than the offer of Free Supercharging for life as long as I owned the car. I knew that buying the car so wouldn't have any issue when I sold it. The confusion came for a few buyers when it was initally free Supercharging for life of the car which changed to the life of the car for the first owner. People didn't understand or deliberately misinformed the next owner.

No doubt the salesmen will talk up the options the car has, and also sell it at a higher price point, when it hits their second hand yard though.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

No doubt the salesmen will talk up the options the car has, and also sell it at a higher price point, when it hits their second hand yard though.

Perhaps you're right. I haven't bought second hand since my first car so couldn't say one way or another.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by b0son

You option up a car with the expectation that you'll get some of it back come resale. I wouldnt buy a car where I rent fundamental features, only to have them turned off when I sell the car. It's a frankly ridiculous business model, and I imagine were it publicised, it would turn a lot of people off ownership. Resale matters.

HQ Holden Kingswood sedan new, big 202 optioned with std 3sp manual would that of added to resale value over a 173 ?

How about 4sp manual ? not to mention the bucket seats.
How about sports GTS instruments option in that as well as disc brakes and 3.36 LSD.
I don't think you would add anything to the resale at all in doing such, but that's what I would have if I had to by a 6cyl.

Then the colour of the car may add to resale, pick the wrong colour and you would loose.

How about A/C on top of any HQ Kingswood I think one would loosed value as to what you have spent.


What I would of wanted was a HQ Kingswood ute with, opt 308 4sp or T Bar auto 3.08 LSD with factory air and GTS sports dash and wheel, but as for resale value as to extra $ I spent I would not expect it to be as good as the value for money as one would get with a stock 173 3sp ute.

Look at the HQ SS sedan now that was good value for $ up front and resale value would of been good I would think.

G-pac LH Torana ? or the Plus 4 ? for value over a std Torana and resale ?

Holden had a HT white hot special Kingwood sedan, good value up front but resale ?

How about Fords GS package value and for resale ?

The VS SS ute package value and trade in value.

HB Brabham Torana ?

I am talking in the 1st year to 5 years in the main on such cars.

[FTE217]

TBH - for all the wonderful tech gizmos and all all I'm seeing is were going down the path of choice customising your purchase will be limited and more expensive in the future.
You see it in everything today more and more, no this is deleted thats not available next series on etcetcetc....
Oh yer sure the performance is great but were going down the road of clone running by companies and them taking more and more control.
You can have it kypez, I'm not going to feed em until I have no choice in doing so.
You mentioned that none of your features will get turned off when you shift it on, thats no gaurantee tbh, what your told when bought and at this stage, lets wait and see what occurs when the next fanboi buys yours for eg....Company policy changes in a blink of an eye today.
I won't be surprised a new price with features turned on comes into it.
For now they are playing/appeasing with you new adaptors, in time it won't be as such.
Terrminator was right so long ago, the machines will take over and stooopid people think its great, little do they know control will be in the hand of the seller, you can't do repairs yourself or take it to someone else as we do today and they have you by the short and curleys.
What a experience to look forward to.
ICE till the day I die should be a new bumper decal.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by FTE217

ICE till the day I die should be a new bumper decal.

OLD ICE till the day I die should be a new bumper decal

fixed it for you.

I love my GTF but its day came and went. The very reason I bought the GTF is the same reason I move on from it. It was the Best GT Falcon available in 2014, if not ever. Now time to move with the times for me. I don't live life in the rear view mirror. I still smile and wonder what if development had continued but its a car from a time gone by. Its not current is any shape or form.

Another thought, what if the car on the second hand market has features installed but the first person who ordered the car initially didn't want to spend the money to enable those features? As the second buyer, I can now pay to have those features enabled. AutoPilot is a great example of this where many second hand cars don't have the feature enabled but the hardware is already on the car. The second buyer simply pays the fee and has it turned on. Makes it even more enticing in the second hand market.

[burnz]

we will not have an answer to better the ICE, the laws of thermal dynamics will see to that.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by kypez

OLD ICE till the day I die should be a new bumper decal

fixed it for you.

I love my GTF but its day came and went. The very reason I bought the GTF is the same reason I move on from it. It was the Best GT Falcon available in 2014, if not ever. Now time to move with the times for me. I don't live life in the rear view mirror. I still smile and wonder what if development had continued but its a car from a time gone by. Its not current is any shape or form.

Another thought, what if the car on the second hand market has features installed but the first person who ordered the car initially didn't want to spend the money to enable those features? As the second buyer, I can now pay to have those features enabled. AutoPilot is a great example of this where many second hand cars don't have the feature enabled but the hardware is already on the car. The second buyer simply pays the fee and has it turned on. Makes it even more enticing in the second hand market.

corrected for you
NEW ICE is sensational if you ask me, the power and fuel eco is brilliant.
Most people like to move on, especially a good portion of enthusiasts - don't think many have sore necks as you patronisingly quote with all due respect.
Your behaving like the ol bumper crowd yet with new tech.
Please respect all pov's, being in the minority I get you need to stand up, lets just wait and see what evolves in the next 10yrs.

Not fussed what could or may occur re activating options for 2nd/3rd owner electric, the main point I've made about this tech world is that they will have your back to the wall regards this for the IP will be brand locked in specific.
Like apple, anything non genuine is pretty ordinary, whereas to date re auto parts there are some companies that have same resource as the OE's going to market as we all know.
This will not be the same in the future.
The divide of the "haves" and have "nots" will be greater as the years go by imo.

[kmav23]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

A relevent question in regard to the change from I.C.E to electric,is how is the Govt going to replace the huge dollars that is collected in tax and excise on fossil fuels.When the Govt is
collecting a minimum 50c ,litre for fuels how are they going to make that revenue when electicity is at the equivilent of $4-5 per refuel of which the Govt doesn’t really get any of.

The government spends billions on national security.

Billions on wars and lives for middle east wars.

Energy independence and security is worth going full Ev.


Generating all your own clean domestic power.

Major conflicts wars instability in the world.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by FTE217

corrected for you
NEW ICE is sensational if you ask me, the power and fuel eco is brilliant.
Most people like to move on, especially a good portion of enthusiasts - don't think many have sore necks as you patronisingly quote with all due respect.
Your behaving like the ol bumper crowd yet with new tech.
Please respect all pov's, being in the minority I get you need to stand up, lets just wait and see what evolves in the next 10yrs.

Not fussed what could or may occur re activating options for 2nd/3rd owner electric, the main point I've made about this tech world is that they will have your back to the wall regards this for the IP will be brand locked in specific.
Like apple, anything non genuine is pretty ordinary, whereas to date re auto parts there are some companies that have same resource as the OE's going to market as we all know.
This will not be the same in the future.
The divide of the "haves" and have "nots" will be greater as the years go by imo.

You said that you didn't like the features being made subscriptions or the ability for manufacturers to turn features on and off. This is something that will happen irrespective of ICE or EV now and into the future.

Mercs/BMWs/etc come with subscriptions to their connectivity systems that turn off if you don't pay subscriptions. BMW expect you to pay extra to use Apple Car Play. Subscription models for features is the way of the future unfortunately.

So no, you said and continue to say you didn't like this so I said you like OLD ICE cars which don't have this level of tech or manufacturer control. I don't understand what I've said wrong or how you can take it as patronising in any way. I understand that you don't like change and want to make sure your opinions are validated, Please respect all POV's.

I agree new ICE engines are fun. The Gen 3 Coyote is epic fun. I'd still have my mustangs had they not failed. But its also an example of moving on from my GTF. The Mustang was years ahead of the GTF. They are epic fun and have so much more tech. Magnaride is awesome for standard suspension. Still waiting on the Mach 1 to hopefully appear next year as I will buy one in a heartbeat.

The form of propulsion has little to do with the Tech coming into cars and the ability for manufacturers to turn on or off features.

[PG2]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

A relevent question in regard to the change from I.C.E to electric,is how is the Govt going to replace the huge dollars that is collected in tax and excise on fossil fuels.When the Govt is
collecting a minimum 50c ,litre for fuels how are they going to make that revenue when electicity is at the equivilent of $4-5 per refuel of which the Govt doesn’t really get any of.

Originally Posted by kmav23

The government spends billions on national security.

Billions on wars and lives for middle east wars.

Energy independence and security is worth going full Ev.


Generating all your own clean domestic power.

Major conflicts wars instability in the world.

All you did is ramble and not answer the question. Was this an automated response?

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by kypez

You said that you didn't like the features being made subscriptions or the ability for manufacturers to turn features on and off. This is something that will happen irrespective of ICE or EV now and into the future.

Mercs/BMWs/etc come with subscriptions to their connectivity systems that turn off if you don't pay subscriptions. BMW expect you to pay extra to use Apple Car Play. Subscription models for features is the way of the future unfortunately.

So no, you said and continue to say you didn't like this so I said you like OLD ICE cars which don't have this level of tech or manufacturer control. I don't understand what I've said wrong or how you can take it as patronising in any way. I understand that you don't like change and want to make sure your opinions are validated, Please respect all POV's.

I agree new ICE engines are fun. The Gen 3 Coyote is epic fun. I'd still have my mustangs had they not failed. But its also an example of moving on from my GTF. The Mustang was years ahead of the GTF. They are epic fun and have so much more tech. Magnaride is awesome for standard suspension. Still waiting on the Mach 1 to hopefully appear next year as I will buy one in a heartbeat.

The form of propulsion has little to do with the Tech coming into cars and the ability for manufacturers to turn on or off features.

They are old long time companies I can stomach and keeps changing.
No different then to using chassis # for parts was introduced and now advancing towards the tech path options and they are options.
Were used to them, your new crowd were not and they setting new boundaries and will be worse in the big picture....
Everything happens eventually re changes.
You came across as being smug, if I read it the wrong way sorry if so but at times you do read as such tbh, I'm sure I'm not alone feeling that and you probably know yourself.
The current NEW ICE isn't as prohibitive as yet that I know of.
You not reading right claiming I don't like change, I don't like being dictated or forced by lack of choice, I'm sure I'm not in the minority.
I get the drift of moving on, AU's to FGX's to Bimmers I kind of get it wouldn't you think. (comparing FG's to later Pony is night and day as we all know nothing new here)
Heck I don't have a nokia anymore.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by FTE217

They are old long time companies I can stomach and keeps changing.
No different then to using chassis # for parts was introduced and now advancing towards the tech path options and they are options.
Were used to them, your new crowd were not and they setting new boundaries and will be worse in the big picture....
Everything happens eventually re changes.
You came across as being smug, if I read it the wrong way sorry if so but at times you do read as such tbh, I'm sure I'm not alone feeling that and you probably know yourself.
The current NEW ICE isn't as prohibitive as yet that I know of.
You not reading right claiming I don't like change, I don't like being dictated or forced by lack of choice, I'm sure I'm not in the minority.
I get the drift of moving on, AU's to FGX's to Bimmers I kind of get it wouldn't you think. (comparing FG's to later Pony is night and day as we all know nothing new here)
Heck I don't have a nokia anymore.

Fair enough. I don't mean to come off as Smug. I am fortunate and think I should pay it forward which is why I never use a public hospital (that would be unfair) and usually sell my cars second hand for a loss to people who might not have the opportunity to buy said cars. Its my way of paying it forward. If people read that to be smug, so be it. People who make a judgement without really getting to know someone isn't someone whose opinion I need to care about.

I don't think the new guard are doing anything that the old guard haven't themselves. Tesla does away with Dealerships and servicing so they add subscriptions to make some money back. Traditional dealerships took a hit on options and the car in the hope to make it back on servicing. They all take their pound of flesh. Its just the way its done now is different.

Like I said, even before Tesla started turning on and off features, BMW did this with their cars. If anything, Tesla copied their model of subscription based services.

If Falcons were still made in Australia, I'd never had bought a Tesla (I always buy Australian made unless there is no local substitute). But for now, there is literally no other car with the performance of a Tesla for the money. 0-100 in 3.4 seconds and stupidly quick around a track all for $110k. Thats fantastic bang for your buck when compared to the M3/C63. If there was a manual capable of close to those numbers I'd be keen (the RSpec Mustang was close but with the overheating issues, I'm going to give it a pass).

But thats only cause it works for me and the driving I do. I know it doesn't work for everyone which is why I don't say EVERYONE MUST buy an EV or you're a so and so. That is not fair or right.

Anyway, I think ICE will be around for a while still. I'm hoping the next Gen Mustang gets all the Sync 4 goodness with a nice V8 if the Mach 1 doesn't grace our shores.

I still say, tech being turned off or on is not an EV problem, its an industry wide problem.

Speaking of Nokia

[jpd80]

Speaking of Falcons still being built (buried in the post), how would people feel if the Falcon name
was used as a new BEV car that was based on a low riding version of the Mustang Mach E platform?
I think it would reach a lot more people, especially with a nice high performance version.

Something that blends old with the new and moves the perception of Ford and it customers.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Speaking of Falcons still being built (buried in the post), how would people feel if the Falcon name was used
as a new BEV car that was based on a low riding version of the Mustang Mach E platform?
I think it would reach a lot more people, especially with a nice high performance version.

Something that blends old with the new and moves the perception of Ford and it customers.

I'd consider one for sure. In a heartbeat if it had the performance but I think it would suffer a similar fate as the Commodore becoming a FWD. I think the market would reject it and the Falcon brand doesn't have the same appeal as the Commodore brand did (at least towards the end; could be the products fault especially when you compare FGX with VF(2)).