What will be FPV/HSV response to new Nissan GT-R

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Actually, when the HSV GTS300 came out in 2000, with the 5.7litre 300kW 510Nm V8 at $95,000, people bought those instead of the $185,000 4.9litre 294kW 500Nm BMW M5. Which was actually a slower car.

People also bought the 300kW GTS300 Coupe instead of things like the CLK55 AMG and M3. No reason it won't happen again. Some wealthy people like home grown stuff, but were just dissappointed by the lacklusture products of the 80s and 90s.
.

Not very many would switch from M/AMG to HSV though Steffo!! only the C.U.B's Cashed Up Boggans....

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by da_ilks

M5 and AMG handle much better then HSV or FPV offerings. Not to mention things like prestige, build quality etc.

Spoken to a few ex Merc dealers, build isn't always what you'd expect for the money.

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by Steffo

They all run 12's. They're all, with good drivers, in the 4's to 100km/h. They all handle similarly, are similarly comfortable and use a similar amount of fuel. They're all similar size. Yep, that makes them competitors.

No mate they dont all run 12's, iv never seen or heard of any FPV or HSV run a 12 without mods, 4's to 100km/h..............?????? :



We are talking about cars priced between $200-$250 thousand and cars priced between $50-$100 thousand there is no comparison.

No one with the cash to buy a supercar like an M5 ($245 thousand) would even consider buying a ford or a holden.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FORD3V

No mate they dont all run 12's, iv never seen or heard of any FPV or HSV run a 12 without mods, 4's to 100km/h..............?????? :



We are talking about cars priced between $200-$250 thousand and cars priced between $50-$100 thousand there is no comparison.

No one with the cash to buy a supercar like an M5 ($245 thousand) would even consider buying a ford or a holden.

Agreed. Anyone who'd seriously consider a GTS over an M5 was never seriously in the position to afford the M5 in the first place...
There's also far more to an M/AMG series vehicle than 1/4 mile times, and realistically the kind of buyer in that price range (250K+) wouldnt care what a drag strip was anyway.

[cupic]

Originally Posted by Ridin-High

Nissan Australia are lobbying hard to get the new Nissan GT-R for sale in Australia

"While various powerplants have been rumoured, the smart money is now on a twin-turbo V6 engine producing around about 320kW in its 'base' form. Powered up versions are said to be good for over 400kW!"

Click here for full story

Doesn't mention anything about the price, but i presume somewhere in the region of $100,000. Power to weight this thing will kill anything from the local boys at the moment, Holden need to release a GTS-R with LS7 and Ford need a supercharged Boss 5.4

When figures of 150ooo-----200ooo is mention for the new GTR not much will be said from either camps.Different story from the likes of Porsche of BMW

[The Monty]

Originally Posted by FORD3V

No mate they dont all run 12's, iv never seen or heard of any FPV or HSV run a 12 without mods, 4's to 100km/h..............?????? :



We are talking about cars priced between $200-$250 thousand and cars priced between $50-$100 thousand there is no comparison.

No one with the cash to buy a supercar like an M5 ($245 thousand) would even consider buying a ford or a holden.

There is a Typhoon on here that has run 12's stock. Numerous times.

[Wokkas]

Originally Posted by The Monty

There is a Typhoon on here that has run 12's stock. Numerous times.

You can't base it on one freak-car though.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by da_ilks

M5 and AMG handle much better then HSV or FPV offerings. Not to mention things like prestige, build quality etc.

I've driven both a 2003 Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG (With the 350kW 700Nm S/C V8) and a 2006 FPV F6 Typhoon 6sp auto. So I beg to differ. Better handling? Guess again. More luxurious... definitley. Faster in a straight line? Where it matters, not by the margain you'd think. Which would I buy if I had the money? The E55 of course, but that's a different story...

Originally Posted by FORD3V

No mate they dont all run 12's, iv never seen or heard of any FPV or HSV run a 12 without mods, 4's to 100km/h..............?????? :



We are talking about cars priced between $200-$250 thousand and cars priced between $50-$100 thousand there is no comparison.

No one with the cash to buy a supercar like an M5 ($245 thousand) would even consider buying a ford or a holden.

12.73, 12.94, 12.98 = all F6's that have done 12's, two of those (12.73 and 12.94 I believe) belong to this forum. Not to mention the low low 13's from manual BAII examples.

Second of all, the only reason these cars are so expensive here is tax. The Audi RS6 in 2003 was a great example. $235,000 drive-away price for your average Aussie bloke... Italian embassy bought one that year, for $115,000. Tax exempt. $120,000 of tax. That puts it far closer to HSV/FPV money (GTS was $95,000 once upon a time) then it otherwise would be going by overinflated, overtaxed Australian car prices.

And none of these cars, none of them are supercars. M5, not even close. You want a supercar? Look up a Porsche Carrera GT. Or a Maserati MC12. Or a Koenigsegg CCX.

Fact is, our local products are not as far behind the big-dollar (not as expensive when you take our greedy Govt out of the picture) Euro's as most people think. Badge doesn't mean high performance. There are areas where our products will always be behind, fit and finish, quality of materials used, gadgetry in them (I'd love to see an Aussie car with an electronically controlled sequential gearbox and launch control...) and such. But people don't give our cars enough credit. Fact is, in its time, the HSV GTS300 was the fastest car in its class. It beat the superhyped but not that great M5, it beat the joke of a sports sedan the W210 E55 AMG was, it was faster then the S-Type R and the S6. Only the AWD, Twin Turbo 4.2 V8 RS6 was faster at the time. If that's not impressive... well then.

And today is much of the same. The Typhoon and GTS 307 are not as far behind the M5, E63 and S6 as people automatically assume. With the up-coming Euro stars, like the new 5.2 Twin Turbo V10 410kW RS6, they will be put behind once again, but there's no reason why Australia can't come up with world beaters. It's happened before, on several occasions. Considering our market size, ie: more Golfs are sold in Europe alone yearly then new cars in Australia, what we make is quite impressive. I can only imagine what FPV and HSV would be able to do given the sales volume of Audi, Mercedes and BMW. Given their development dollars. I'd be gladly willing to bet that the false-God M5 wouldn't look so great any more. Where our cars will never win though, is image. They can be as fast as they want to be, ride as well as the others, brake as well, whatever... two blokes talking will always write them off before giving them a chance. I never said they were better. I said they were much closer to them then you think. They indeed are rivals. Despite the ultra price gap, they're in the exact same genre and offer similar performance.

[FORD3V]

Steffo.

No one is disputing the fact that ford and holden make good cars but no one seriously considering buying a car like an M5 would even go near a ford or holden showroom.

Using a few freak typhoons as your argument is fairly weak, i wasnt aware any factory phoons had run 12's, they have had cold air mods.

To use an M5 as an example, it has a 5 litre V10 which has 373kw's and is capable of reving to 8250rpm, it has electronically adjustable engine,trans and suspension, in normal mode the M5 has just under 300kw's but at the touch of a button which activates a engine management program,adjusts the camshafts to maximum lift and duration and opens the ten throttle butterflies to there full extent, giving you 373kw's.

Thats pretty close to a supercar if you ask me and technology that ford and holden cant match.

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by Wokkas

You can't base it on one freak-car though.

Thats exactly right, you cant base your whole argument on 2 or 3 cars.

People who wana convince themselves that fords and holdens are in the same league as european supercars are kidding themselves.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by FORD3V

Steffo.

No one is disputing the fact that ford and holden make good cars but no one seriously considering buying a car like an M5 would even go near a ford or holden showroom.

Using a few freak typhoons as your argument is fairly weak, i wasnt aware any factory phoons had run 12's, they have had cold air mods.

To use an M5 as an example, it has a 5 litre V10 which has 373kw's and is capable of reving to 8250rpm, it has electronically adjustable engine,trans and suspension, in normal mode the M5 has just under 300kw's but at the touch of a button which activates a engine management program,adjusts the camshafts to maximum lift and duration and opens the ten throttle butterflies to there full extent, giving you 373kw's.

Thats pretty close to a supercar if you ask me and technology that ford and holden cant match.

The M5's engine is its greatest bottleneck. In a 1755kg car an engine that makes peak torque at 6100rpm is a weak point. It fails its main objective, being a well-rounded, useable luxury sedan. It is not a supercar and never will be. Physics are against it. It's a near 5m long, near 2m wide five seater luxury sedan. That's what all these cars (except the M5) aim to be first and foremost. They can't be a supercar because for one thing, supercars don't compromise performance for useability. They're wild and nothing can match them, but they're also useless as a daily commute.

373kW @ 7750rpm and 520Nm @ 6100rpm is not impressive in a car like that. Wrong engine, wrong car. I'm well aware of all the M5's features, and I'm also well aware of how fast it is and how fast a Typhoon is. For all that 'superior technology,' and all that money, it can barely run away from one, and in most situations on the street, due to its stupidly highly strung engine with zero bottom end power, it will see an F6's tail lights. Only on a race track (where none of these cars belong anyway) will an M5 put a gap between them, but that's useless. Who buys a near-2 tonne luxury sedan for serious track work? Oh and one more thing... high rpm does not equal good engine.

As I said before, aside from the extra gadgetry these cars have, there's not much else setting them apart from the locals. Aside from badge.

Originally Posted by FORD3V

Thats exactly right, you cant base your whole argument on 2 or 3 cars.

People who wana convince themselves that fords and holdens are in the same league as european supercars are kidding themselves.

People who think 1.8-2 tonne sedans are supercars are kidding themselves. I wonder one thing... have you seen any of these cars in action, in real life? Or driven any of the contenders? I've seen quite a few and driven two of the examples we're talking about (F6 and E55 AMG) so I can base my opinion on real life... not the amount of gadgets a car like an M5 has in its horrendously high revving high strung low torque engine to use as a crutch because it would be undriveable otherwise. Or its immense amount of transmission settings that are again a crutch for its poorly thought out engine.

[FORD3V]

Regardless of anything that you or me has said,or anything to do with the performance or technology in any car be it aussie or euro,this argument started because you claimed they were competitors, in a magazine they may be competitors but in the real world where people usually buy cars on affordability,they are not competitors.

The sort of person who buys an M5 buys it for the performance and the prestige of owning a BMW,and to out do his rich mates and money obviously isnt an issue.

The sort of person who buys a ford or a holden buys them because they are good bang for buck performance cars, and they are awesome cars, just not in the same league as there european counterparts.

So therefore they are not competitors.

[EviLkarL]

Originally Posted by Ridin-High

What will be FPV/HSV response to new Nissan GT-R

I'd suspect the response would be along the lines of; "What's a GT-R"

Funny how you were going on about Holden R8's blowing away GT Falcons in another thread. I can't wait for the next thread. Whats better a V8 or a V10 maybe ?

[RS500]

Spoken to a few ex Merc dealers, build isn't always what you'd expect for the money.

thats because a lot of them are made in South Africa these days, and if they are anything like the old Couriers they will be bad

People who think 1.8-2 tonne sedans are supercars are kidding themselves.

anyone who think the "V8 Supercars" are supercars are also kidding themselves

[burnz]

another lawn mower, i am shure ford/holden will respond if it becomes a threat
corvette/mustang comes to mind

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by burnz

another lawn mower, i am shure ford/holden will respond if it becomes a threat
corvette/mustang comes to mind

Nice signature..... Im sure a GTR would help with that.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by FORD3V

Regardless of anything that you or me has said,or anything to do with the performance or technology in any car be it aussie or euro,this argument started because you claimed they were competitors, in a magazine they may be competitors but in the real world where people usually buy cars on affordability,they are not competitors.

The sort of person who buys an M5 buys it for the performance and the prestige of owning a BMW,and to out do his rich mates and money obviously isnt an issue.

The sort of person who buys a ford or a holden buys them because they are good bang for buck performance cars, and they are awesome cars, just not in the same league as there european counterparts.

So therefore they are not competitors.

And in the end that is totally flawed logic. They're in the same genre and have similar performance. So they do compete. Like I said, the Aussie cars lack the presteige. But what happens when Mr. M5 driver pulls out to overtake Mr. F6 man and then F6 man guns it, and his 550Nm @ 2000-4250rpm catapults him away from M5 driver's puny 520Nm @ stratospheric 6100rpm? The look on the M5 driver's face would be priceless.

There are people who cross shop them. They're people who like cars and aren't badge obsessed tossers who don't know what a fast car is and just buy things to be cool.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by FORD3V

Nice signature..... Im sure a GTR would help with that.

no it wont seriouly, everybody on every forum is looking for more bang
and that is not anything special deffinatly not enoght bang

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by Steffo

And in the end that is totally flawed logic. They're in the same genre and have similar performance. So they do compete. Like I said, the Aussie cars lack the presteige. But what happens when Mr. M5 driver pulls out to overtake Mr. F6 man and then F6 man guns it, and his 550Nm @ 2000-4250rpm catapults him away from M5 driver's puny 520Nm @ stratospheric 6100rpm? The look on the M5 driver's face would be priceless.

There are people who cross shop them. They're people who like cars and aren't badge obsessed tossers who don't know what a fast car is and just buy things to be cool.

Yep ok, you think an f6 is a better car than a M5.
And you also think $50,000 cars are in the same league as $200,000 cars i tend to disagree.

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by burnz

no it wont seriouly, everybody on every forum is looking for more bang
and that is not anything special deffinatly not enoght bang

I cant understand what you just wrote?????

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by burnz

another lawn mower, i am shure ford/holden will respond if it becomes a threat
corvette/mustang comes to mind

What did you say ?

[burnz]

Originally Posted by FORD3V

I cant understand what you just wrote?????

the multable post's don't work.(mod's)
read your own post first! ford3v
same goes for barraxr8(re:ford3v)

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by burnz

the multable post's don't work.(mod's)
read your own post first! ford3v
same goes for barraxr8(re:ford3v)

Mmmmm,blame the computer......

Maybe get a spell checker buddy.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by FORD3V

Mmmmm,blame the computer......

Maybe get a spell checker buddy.

are we trulie here to start argument's ?
as for my sig too much power will never be enough ask anybody!
and yes moderator's the quote work's, but the multi quote is cactus.
as to your first question....gimmie math's...you don't spell to a C.N.C.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by FORD3V

Yep ok, you think an f6 is a better car than a M5.
And you also think $50,000 cars are in the same league as $200,000 cars i tend to disagree.

Tell me where I said an F6 is better then an M5? Personally I would buy an F6 over an M5 because I hate BMW with a passion. The F6 does have a more suited engine to its application then the M5 does.

Also, the only reason these cars are $200,000 here is our overinflated taxes. So I'm actually comparing $70,000 cars to $105,000 cars. Which have 100% of their proper value taxed. Not so far fetched when you remove that from the equation, is it? Just look at the US list price, they don't have any of the greed tax we do, $82,500 US for the M5. That's $99,614.42 AU.

Also, I'm speaking from real life experience here. Again, have you driven any of the contenders we're talking about or seen them in action in real life?

[SpoolMan]

Any chance we can keep this thread on topic.

Some of you have separate issues use PM for your comments.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

Any chance we can keep this thread on topic.

Some of you have separate issues use PM for your comments.

you are correct i beleve he has made his choice 8 potter

[Kenster]

Now that something i want to see and what would Australia to bring to the standard while not leaving to the Jap standard which is a different story all together.

Thou im interesting to see what Holden and Ford would have to do. Holden may bring back the Manro yet again and Ford is probably working on improving the FPV. On price i will say it would be around the price of a 350z or so

[RS500]

The next GT-R has been confirmed for release at the end of 2007. But starting at 9 million yen (AUD$108,000) it won't be cheap...

Allow a good year or two following release in Japan before the first of these machines hits Australian shores thanks to the red tape of SEVS. So if you want one you may have to wait until about 2009.

Based on the price in Japan, it would cost about $150,000 to have one on the road in Australia. So it would be worthwhile waiting for 2 to 4 years for the price to fall to a more realistic level.

Give it 5 to 8 years, and the price should be in the $50,000 to $60,000 range like the current price of R34 GTR's.

got sent this from a Importer in Japan.

[kevf6hoon]

All i can say is twin turbo the boss 290 or the typhoon and make them 4wdand see what they do but who can afford a 100k plus car