TOYOTA stops production in USA (Recall)

[vztrt]

The flow on effect (even if this has been shown over the past two years)

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...0215-o02w.html

Toyota's quality reputation slips
VERONIQUE DUPONT
February 15, 2010 - 9:42AM

AFP

Toyota's growing safety woes are hitting hard at a company that has seen a meteoric rise in the United States fueled by a reputation for reliability.

Surveys by independent firms such as Consumer Reports and JD Power have ranked Toyota at or near the top for years, allowing the Japanese giant to overtake General Motors in 2008 as the world's biggest carmaker.

"Everybody's been chasing Toyota for years and now people are catching them," Rebecca Lindland, analyst at IHS Global Insight, told AFP.

"The speculation in the industry is that some of the very high standards may have been relaxed when the production increased dramatically and left Japan."

The analyst said that Toyota "had quality issues as soon as they brought production of the Lexus to North America" a few years ago.

Lindland said that "obviously some element of loss of control" was felt by the Japanese automaker in the initial quality of Canadian-made vehicles, which can occur when automakers start producing in new countries.

Toyota has been selling in the US for more than 50 years. But its share of the US market has exploded in recent years, rising from 9.3 per cent to 17 per cent in the 2000-2009 period.

North American production has soared in the past decade as Toyota has brought more of its assembly plants closer to their point of sale.

Even with sales growing, complaints have been rising against Toyota at the national safety watchdog, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

According to the car buying website Edmunds.com, between 2001 and 2010 Toyota was the subject of 9.1 per cent of the consumer complaints on the NHTSA website.

Jake Fisher, senior engineer in auto testing at Consumer Reports, said that before the first recall over the accelerator problem, the complaints involved one Toyota vehicle in 13,000, compared with one in 20,000 for other automakers.

"It's a very severe problem but, if only affecting one of 13,000 vehicles, (that is) a normal message of collecting reliability data," he said.

In searching the NHTSA database, "we found that every automaker has problems of sudden acceleration," he said.

"There's certainly something going on with Toyota but it's not exclusive to them," although no other automaker has issued a recall of almost nine million vehicles in recent months as Toyota has done for accelerator and braking problems.

The complaints registered in 2009 and this year against GM, Ford and Chrysler are minuscule compared with those against Toyota, and on certain models only one or two complaints have been lodged.

"Ford and GM have been working at improving their quality," said IHS Global Insight's Lindland. "All their hard work is showing results."

[vztrt]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...0212-nxmk.html

Oh, how they're reeling
RICHARD BLACKBURN
February 13, 2010

In isolation, Toyota's recall of its Prius hybrid this week for a brake problem was a minor one. Recalls are a regular part of life in the automotive industry. Last year alone there were more than 100 involving cars sold in Australia and this one, involving 2400 vehicles, was on the smaller end of the scale.

Earlier this month, news Holden was recalling more than 13,000 Captivas for a problem that could "result in a loss of steering control" barely rated a mention in the media. By comparison, the reported lack of brake pedal feel in the Prius was a minor safety issue.

But context is everything in the arena of public opinion. And the context of the Prius recall was that it came on top of what was possibly the worst week in the history of the world's largest car maker.

The scope of the crisis facing Toyota is immense: 8 million vehicles recalled overseas for sticking accelerator pedals, investigations by US safety authorities, an imminent grilling by US Congress, 19 deaths reportedly linked to the defect, the threat of lawsuits from accident victims and their loved ones and claims Toyota knew of the defects but did nothing to correct them.

No Toyotas sold in Australia are affected by the accelerator pedal recall, but the negative publicity has the potential to wound Australia's most popular - and arguably most trusted - car brand.

The recall has struck at the heart of Toyota's strength as a brand. It hangs its hat on what it calls QDR: quality, durability and reliability.

The perception Toyota produces poor quality, unreliable cars is as damaging as Ferrari building slow cars or ugly Alfa Romeos.

The crisis has been compounded by Toyota's failure to act quickly and growing suspicions in the US the company knew about safety problems but failed to act.

In Australia, the recall of the Prius mirrored the experience overseas.

News of an impending Prius recall emerged in the Tokyo media on February 4, yet when Australian outlets picked up the story, they were told emphatically there was no recall. At the same time, the company admitted it had instituted a fix for the Prius's brake problems in January, but had no plans to recall vehicles sold before the fix was available.

The recall was finally confirmed five days later. It was poorly timed, just one day after Toyota launched Australia's first locally-built hybrid car, the Camry Hybrid.

Jim Eames, a former director of public affairs at Qantas, says the delays did Toyota no favours.

"The golden rule with any crisis should be to front up as soon as possible. If you don't, the media will always find something to fill the vacuum."

Unfortunately, Toyota Australia has been hamstrung by a lack of communication from head office in Tokyo. Blame for the delay lies partly with the Toyota corporate culture, which tends to favour caution over haste, with every issue dissected and analysed in minute detail before a decision is made. That works well in product engineering, but not in issues management.

Some Toyota insiders complain head office is often hesitant to share information with overseas operations. In times of crisis, when communication is most vital, the lines become choked.

Dr Rohan Miller, a senior lecturer in marketing at the University of Sydney, says Toyota has not managed the issue well, trying to treat the problem as a quality issue rather than a safety issue.

"It lacked everything that a contemporary response to an issue should have. It wasn't timely. There was no urgency. The fact that some people might have been injured or even killed overseas was no real imperative," he says.

He says the damage to the brand in the US will be "immense" and its recovery in Australia will depend on the company's response.

Steve Witten, the executive director of automotive research for renowned US quality watchdog J.D. Power, says Toyota's recovery will depend on its response.

"The history with recalls is that if dealers handle customers well, they can come out of the whole process more loyal to the brand than before," he says.

Toyota's director of sales and marketing, Matthew Callachor, predictably subscribes to the same view.

"The first concern we've had is to make sure that the Prius customers are taken care of extremely well,'' he says.

The response has included technicians completing the software upgrade for the brakes at customers' homes and dealer principals contacting owners personally.

The other part of the crisis plan has been to clarify that the accelerator recall does not affect Australia.

"Clearly we've only had the Prius here in Australia, which is a small quantity of vehicles but nonetheless the publicity generated around the overseas situation has been reported extensively," Callachor says.

Witten says previous high-profile recalls, including Ford's Explorer debacle earlier this decade, had a lasting effect on a brand.

"The lesson is when you lose trust it takes a long time to get it back," he says. Ford's quality is now as good as the Japanese brands, but there was still a big gap between the brand's actual quality and consumer perceptions, he says. "It can take five years for perception to catch up with reality."

J.D. Power has researched buyers since the initial recall and says it appears Toyota customers are giving the brand the benefit of the doubt.

"The people we talked to said that rather than switch brands, they would delay their next purchase, sit out of the market for a while and see what happens," he says.

He says Toyota's quality has been slipping for some time as the company struggles to maintain standards during its rapid expansion.

"Even Toyota executives admit they have taken their eye off the ball," he says.

Stephen Smith, chairman of annual publication, Superbrands, says Australians will be prepared to forgive Toyota, provided it hasn't tried to cover up the safety concerns.

"A brand will maintain its strong position, even with product failures, providing they deal with the issues expediently, honestly and openly.

''If Toyota are doing that and have been doing that then they are going to be strong. If they've tried to cover this up that's going to come out and that's going to damage the brand for a long, long time."

[vztrt]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...0216-o3bu.html

US government claims 34 Toyota deaths since 2000
February 16, 2010

The US government has received new complaints that bring to 34 the alleged number of deaths in Toyota vehicles due to sudden acceleration since 2000, according to government data posted on Monday.

The government has received complaints during the past three weeks alleging 13 deaths. The deaths allegedly tied to this problem happened in nine crashes between 2005 and 2010.

From 2000 to 2009, complaints alleging 21 deaths in Toyota vehicles had been filed with the government.

Toyota Motor Corp has recalled 8.5 million vehicles globally during the past four months because of problems with gas pedals, floor mats and brakes, threatening the safety and quality reputation of the world's No.1 automaker. The government typically receives a surge in complaints following a recall. None has yet been verified.

The new complaints reflect the heightened awareness of the massive recall among the public and underscore a flurry of lawsuits on behalf of drivers alleging deaths and injuries in Toyota crashes. Three congressional hearings are planned on the Toyota recalls.

The database also shows new complaints filed over the 2010 Prius gas-electric hybrid, which was recalled last week to replace braking software.

When the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) opened its investigation of Prius on February 3, the government had received 124 consumer complaints.

Through February 11, the government has received nearly 1000 new complaints for a total of 1120 complaints alleging 34 crashes, six injuries and no deaths.

Transportation Department spokeswoman Olivia Alair said it was "normal for NHTSA to receive an increase in consumer complaints after a recall is announced and the public learns of a safety defect".

Alair said NHTSA takes every complaint seriously and is quickly gathering data on additional complaints "to help guide our examination of sudden acceleration, the Prius braking system, as well as other safety issues".

Toyota officials did not immediately respond to the death allegations.

AP

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by vztrt

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...0216-o3bu.html

^^^^^^
The last line is a bit like their accelerator peddles...they seem to be slow to respond as well.

[vztrt]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/57413/to...l-sales-slump/

Toyota US production halted amid recall sales slump

February 17, 2010 by Matt Brogan

Following Toyota’s recent recalls, the manufacturer has today announced that it will be idling two of its US plants to “better align current demand with market supply”.

The two plants, located in the US states of Texas and Kentucky, has been running on overtime until yesterday, but will be cut back to minimum operation until such time as sales improve.

The plants produce Toyota Tundra, Toyota Camry, Toyota Avalon and Toyota Venza models.

It is estimated that Toyota lost 20,000 sales in the US over the month of January as a direct result of its recalls and subsequent sales stoppage. This figure is expected to swell to in excess of 100,000 units worldwide by the end of the year.

[jpd80]

This is getting deeper and worse by the day, if Americans climb on board with anti-Toyota press stories,
then Toyota will find it hard to recover their name in the US, they may even slip behind Honda.....

[cosmo20btt]

Can only hope, they have been riding the crest of a wave for some time now with mediocre motoring.

[Jastel]

I went to the Toyota factory tour in Toyota, Japan, where they make Priuses (and other models on the same assembly line) last week when the story broke. No cameras allowed inside though.

The papers and TV (what bits I could understand) were full of the news

I did an english language tour and the guide's english (which was fine) suudenly got bad when someone asked about brakes, a similar thing happenned when I asked about batteries and pollution. Her statement was the batteries were supplied to Toyota therefore there was NO polllution! A bit like the eco-hippies who think electric cars have no pollution because they just plug in and charge up, the pollution just shifts to the power station.

The tour was very interesting seeing how they weld them together (takes about 40 seconds by robots) paint them, assembly them, quality control etc. Even saw the brakes tested on rollers.

Any worker on the assembly line can pull a cord and stop the line if he detects a problem and the line will not restart until the problem is fixed, every car has a barcode type thing that identifies to the robots what to do, all parts are collected by people from parts bins, as they walk past a red light goes on saying you need this part for this model, he scans the part out, light goes green he walks to the next box, all parts are put on a motorised robot train thing and taken to the bit of the plant where they are needed just as that shell gets there to be assembled.

They make big claims about how "Green" the plant is, they have solar panels, planted trees, have sunlight reflected inside from the roof for extra lighting, floor mats made from grass, recycle everything (even welding slag etc)

I think they are serious about quality control at the build end anyway, the PR department is another matter.

There are about 8 different hybrid models available over there, even trucks/buses most of which are on display at the head office where the tour starts.

It takes some effort to get there by local trains etc but is worth it.

[Ohio XB]

Would it surprise anyone if I were to say that basically this is how it is at Ford too?


Steve

[Wally]

All will be revealed....not

Toyota boss Akio Toyoda says he accepts House panel's invitation to testify in Washington next Wednesday

[ebxr8240]

Toyota's Loss Is Ford and Chevrolet's Gain
Toyota's recent product recall has consumers moving product consideration toward Ford and Chevrolet models - Toyota Corolla consideration down 13%, Chevrolet Cobalt consideration up 11%Publish date: Feb 16, 2010

Del.icio.usDiggRedditFacebook
Toyota's Loss Is Ford and Chevrolet's Gain
Toyota's recent product recall has consumers moving product consideration toward Ford and Chevrolet models - Toyota Corolla consideration down 13%, Chevrolet Cobalt consideration up 11%
PR Newswire

CAMBRIDGE, Mass., Feb. 16

CAMBRIDGE, Mass., Feb. 16 /PRNewswire/ -- CarGurus® (http://www.cargurus.com/), a leading online automotive community, today announced the results of its Toyota Recall car-shopping study. For this study, CarGurus measured the change in online search volume within its car shopping product for specific recalled Toyota models. Search volumes were measured 10 days prior to and 10 days after Toyota's January 26th product recall announcement. After the recall announcement, Toyota's share of shopping search volume at CarGurus dropped between 6 and 16% depending on the car model (see chart below). For the top four best-selling Toyota models recalled, comparable models from Ford and Chevrolet garnered the greatest increase in search volume share.

Corolla Consumers Shift Consideration to the Chevrolet Cobalt

During the ten days after the recall, search market share for the Toyota Corolla (the fifth best selling car in the United States) dropped 13% compared to the ten days prior to the recall announcement. During this same period, the leading search share gainers for competitive products to the Corolla were the Chevrolet Cobalt (11% gain) and the Ford Focus (9% gain).

Toyota's other top seller, the Camry (the third best selling car in the United States) saw a similar shift in consumer consideration during this period. During the 10 days after the recall announcement, the Camry's share of search volume dropped 8%. During this same period, however, search market share increased 15% for the Ford Fusion and 8% for the Chevrolet Impala.

"Industry experts have already noted that Toyota's problems could impact other carmakers," remarked Langley Steinert, Founder/CEO of CarGurus. "What is surprising, however, is how much Ford and Chevrolet in particular appear to have benefited from Toyota's troubles. These two domestic manufacturers could leverage this opportunity to take significant market share from Toyota."

CarGurus Toyota Recall Car Shopping Study - Methodology

For the 10 days prior to and 10 days after Toyota's January 26th product recall announcement, CarGurus measured the change in online search volume for each of Toyota's recalled car models within CarGurus' car shopping product. Additionally, CarGurus measured the change in search volume market share for comparable models. During the month of January, CarGurus received 2.1 million unique visitors.

[vztrt]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...0218-ogfz.html

Toyota Australia defends Corolla recall threat
TOBY HAGON
February 18, 2010

Reports of steering issues on Corollas sold in the US has forced Toyota Australia to issue a statement about its best-selling vehicle.

Toyota Australia has once again been forced to defend its reputation after the threat of another massive overseas recall for the troubled Japanese car maker.

Reports of a potential recall for steering defects in the Corolla - the best selling car of all time - have forced Toyota Australia to issue a press release claiming it will not affect vehicles sold in Australia.

However, the latest potential recall - to address complaints of the steering veering off course above 65km/h - adds to a string of recalls affecting eight million cars around the world, further taking its toll on Toyota's reputation for quality and reliability.

For the first time in the recent series of recalls Toyota Australia was quick to issue a media statement claiming "here have been no cases [of steering issues] reported to Toyota Australia".

The statement read: "Japan has advised the electric power steering system used in Corolla models sold in Australia is different from that used for models sold in the United States."

Toyota Australia corporate manager of corporate affairs, Heather Box, said the company was not expecting a local recall relating to the potential Corolla steering issue in the US.

"I don't think it will have any impact on Australia," said Box. "We've been advised that the electric power steering system on Corollas sold in Australia is different to the one used in the United States.

However, Toyota's reputation has once again been battered, with media outlets reporting on the recall for a brand known for its quality.

In Australia, Toyota dealers have been trained how to deal with enquiries about the throttle pedal recall that doesn't affect cars sold in Australia.

Toyota was also forced to recall more than 2 million of its much-hyped Prius hybrid car to fix issues with brake pedal feel.

The embarrassing recall - more than 100 different car models are recalled each year in Australia - coincided with the launch of the first hybrid car to be built in Australia, the Camry Hybrid.

The Corolla is the best selling Toyota in Australia, taking advantage of a decade of growth in small cars.

Last year Toyota sold almost 40,000 Corollas in Australia, threatening the top-selling Commodore for the mantle of the best-selling car.

[Chilliman]

Toyota exec. boasts of saving $100M avoiding recall Internal Toyota documents provided to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee show the carmaker saved $100 million by negotiating an 'equipment' recall' rather than a vehicle recall.by Peter Valdes-DapenaFebruary 21, 2010: 10:28 PM ET




NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- A Toyota executive boasted of the company saving $100 million by negotiating a limited recall for Toyota Camry and Lexus ES cars over a problem that could cause unintended acceleration.
In an internal Toyota (TM) document used as part of a company presentation on its government relations, dated July 6, 2009, the phrase "Negotiated 'equipment' recall on Camry/ES re: [sudden acceleration], saved $100 million+ with no defect found" is among a bullet-pointed list of "wins."
An "equipment" recall is a more limited type of recall, often to repair an accessory or non-essential part of the vehicle.
The presentation was given by Yoshi Inaba, Toyota's top North American executive.
The reference was apparently to a Sept., 2007, recall to secure floor mats that could trap the cars' gas pedals.
In August, 2009, the month following the presentation in which the executive boasted of saving $100 million over a full recall, a family of four was killed in a Lexus with its gas pedal stuck under a floor mat.
In November, 2009, Toyota had full recall to reconfigure the gas pedals of numerous Toyota models to prevent such incidents.
Toyota's troubles: A timeline
Among other "wins" listed were "Avoided investigation on Tacoma rust" and helping win delays in various new federal safety regulations.
A copy of the presentation was provided to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee which is set to grill Toyota president Akio Toyoda on Wednesday. It is unclear who provided the document to the Committee.
"If anything but the safety of America's drivers influenced the decision-making process, the entire purpose of National Highway Traffic Safety Administration will be undermined," said Kurt Bardella, a spokesman for Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA), a member of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.
Neither a Toyota nor a NHTSA spokesperson was immediately available to comment for this report.

[XR Martin]

Ive noticed with the current Corolla, if you are starting the car while turning the wheel, there is a massive amount of lagg and then a jolt though the steering.
Not really a big deal, but still an issue.
Lets say you stall the car while doing a U-turn (and yes its easy to do in a manual Corolla because the electronic throttle is just stupid in it), You go to restart while turning the wheel then the issue can appear.

[vztrt]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/57906/to...iting-recalls/

Toyota saved US$100 million by limiting recalls

February 23, 2010 by Tim Beissmann

Toyota’s global 8.5 million vehicle recall has taken an ugly turn overnight with internal documents revealing the Japanese company was happy about saving US$100 million by limiting a safety recall in 2007.

Presented confidentially in July 2009, Toyota North America president of operations, Yoshimi Inaba, announced “wins for Toyota” after achieving “favourable safety outcomes” and “secured safety rule-making favourable to Toyota”.

Toyota explained it “negotiated an equipment recall” for the 2007 Toyota Camry and Lexus ES 350, recalling 55,000 floor mats rather than fixing the defective accelerator pedals, saving US$100 million.

Toyota also confirmed it saved millions by delaying federal safety rules on numerous models and avoided an investigation into the 1995 to 2004 Tacoma pickup, which had undercarriage rust issues.

In response to the revelations, Toyota said:

“Our first priority is the safety of our customers, and to conclude otherwise on the basis of one internal presentation is wrong.”

As well as a number of US class action lawsuits that could cost the company billions, Toyota CEO, Akio Toyoda, faces the first of three panel hearings on Wednesday when he meets with the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.

That will be followed by the House Energy and Commerce Committee next Tuesday and the Senate committee later next week.

A spokeswoman for the US Transportation Department, Olivia Alair, told the New York Times that Toyota’s actions had left the department with few alternatives.

“Unfortunately this document is very telling. We’re going to hold Toyota’s feet to the fire and make sure they do what’s necessary.”

[vztrt]

Akio Toyoda to defend his company’s name

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2576D200026A9A

Toyota rules out electronics in unintended acceleration problems

23 February 2010

By MARTON PETTENDY

TOYOTA has attempted to dismiss the possibility that electronic throttle systems could be involved in unintended acceleration complaints on the eve of a landmark United States government hearing into the Japanese giant’s unprecedented quality crisis.

“There is no evidence, nor any sign, that electronic throttle control systems have been involved,” said Toyota spokesman John Hanson on Monday, two days before Toyota Motor Corporation president Akio Toyoda was due to publicly defend the company that bears his name.

Toyota engineers used a 90-minute conference call to explain how “fail-safe” systems prevented vehicles accelerating without driver input and to prove that Toyota’s internal electromagnetic interference testing exceeded minimum US and European regulations.

The world’s biggest car-maker continues to maintain that either floor mats or sticky accelerator pedals are the causes of unintended acceleration reports that have led to two recalls affecting about 8.5 million vehicles globally.

So far Australia is affected only by a separate recall of nearly 2400 examples of Toyota’s Prius hybrid. Globally, about 400,000 latest third-generation Priuses are subject to the recall, which involves a brake system fix within the vehicle’s electronic control unit.

Toyota’s Corolla – the world’s top-selling small car – is also the subject of an NHTSA investigation after reports of problems with its electric power steering system, but Toyota has announced that Australia will not be affected by any potential recall of one of the nation’s most popular models because it employs a different steering system to that in US models. Toyota Motor Sales USA president Jim Lentz and transportation secretary Ray LaHood are due to testify before the House Energy and Commerce Committee at 11am US time on Tuesday, with Mr Toyoda and his company’s North American chief Yoshi Inaba scheduled to appear 24 hours later at 11am Wednesday.

Even before Toyota is forced to answer embarrassing questions about quality control and alleged cover-ups, however, committee chairman Henry Waxman fired shots at both Toyota and America’s official road safety body.

Congressman Waxman, a Californian democrat, said Toyota documents provided to the committee suggest the car-maker had consistently dismissed electronics as a cause of unwanted acceleration, that Toyota's most recent electronic interference test appears flawed and that the company issued misleading statements about the adequacy of its recent recalls.

“Our preliminary assessment is that Toyota resisted the possibility that electronic defects could cause safety concerns, relied on a flawed engineering report and made misleading public statements concerning the adequacy of recent recalls to address the risk of sudden unintended acceleration,” said Mr Waxman in a letter to Mr Lentz, which was co-signed by Michigan Republican Bart Stupak, chairman of the committee's oversight panel.

The committee found that Toyota customer complaint operators identified floor mats or accelerator pedals as the cause of only 16 per cent of the unintended acceleration reports, the letter said.

The damning letter also described as inadequate Toyota’s two most recent safety recalls, since about 70 per cent of acceleration complaints to Toyota involved vehicles not recalled in October or January.

A second letter from Mr Waxman, which also pre-empts questions to be asked over the next two days, criticises the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's handling of consumer complaints about unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles, and claims the NHTSA lacked the expertise to evaluate defects in electronic systems.

“NHTSA has lacked the expertise needed to address this serious defect and has conducted only cursory and ineffective investigations,” said the letter.

Automotive News reported that US transport department spokeswoman Olivia Alair had confirmed that the US safety regulator was doing another investigation into the matter, including the possibility of electromagnetic interference, following 141 similar throttle control inquests since 1980.

“NHTSA is once again undertaking a comprehensive review of sudden acceleration, including the possible influence of electromagnetic interference, software anomalies or other electronic issues,” she said, adding that the agency has “numerous” electrical engineers on staff and consults with outside experts when necessary.

The latest developments follow the reveal of a document claiming TMC saved more than $US100 million ($A111.3m) by convincing the US regulator to agree to a relatively inexpensive fix for unintended acceleration problems, just as Toyota’s most senior officials arrived in Washington to face the federal hearings this week.

Provided to the government before being made available on Sunday, the internal 2009 document by Toyota’s Washington staff highlights the savings achieved by persuading safety officials to end a 2007 investigation into unintended acceleration by issuing a floor mat recall.

“Unfortunately, this document is very telling,” said Ms Alair in an emailed statement to Automotive News, alluding to the likelihood of more pivotal debate about whether Toyota overlooked or ignored reports of sudden acceleration complaints in its vehicles and whether US safety regulators were too lenient with Toyota.

The NHTSA commenced seven investigations into sudden acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles between 2003 and early 2009, five of which were closed after it was concluded there was no evidence for any action.

According to Automotive News, more than 100 Toyota dealers, who are influential with US Congress because of their impact on local economies, had gathered for the commencement of hearings on Monday. Consumer advocate and former NHTSA administrator Joan Claybrook will also appear at hearings on Wednesday's.

Toyota has committed to an unprecedented comprehensive safety review at all levels of its operations, and last week said it would fit an automatic throttle override feature to its vehicles, which like many similar systems returns the engine to idle when the brakes are applied.

While president Toyoda will face the toughest test of his seven-month tenure when he testifies this week in an attempt to contain the safety crisis that puts in jeopardy the reputation and sales of the car-maker in the market that helped make it so successful, Toyota’s US sales plunged 16 per cent in January and the company estimates the recalls will cost $US2 billion ($A2.2b) at an operating level in its fiscal year ending in March.

Potentially representing billions more in lost revenue, Alabama law firm Beasley Allen recently filed its third class action lawsuit against Toyota – its third this month – this time on behalf of more 500,000 Toyota Prius and Lexus hybrid owners.

The latest class action charges Toyota with “breach of express warranty, breach of implied warranty of merchantability, breach of implied warranty of fitness for particular purpose, fraudulent concealment, unjust enrichment, and breach of the covenant of good faith and fair dealing. The complaint alleges Toyota concealed facts relating to the defects in the accelerator braking system”.

As part of its media offensive this week, Toyota suggested it had been singled out by virtue of the sheer volume of vehicles it sells, with Edmunds.com asserting that on a per-vehicle-sold basis Toyota is among the best brands when it comes to all types of complaints since 2001. In contrast, Consumer Reports says Toyota has received the most complaints related to unintended-acceleration.

Toyota also said just 13 sticky throttle pedal complaints led to 2.3 million-vehicle recall. Critics counter by identifying a total of 2262 unintended acceleration complaints since 1999, leading to a federally cited figure of 34 deaths.

[mik]

and here`s another.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshom...ighway-terror/

Driver recalls Toyota highway terror


A tearful driver has told a congressional hearing in the United States that she thought she was going to die as her Toyota Lexus sped out of control on a freeway.

The world's largest carmaker is enduring another round of its public relations nightmare, with two days of congressional hearings starting in Washington DC.

Overnight, Toyota's US boss apologised for the company's slow handling of its massive safety recalls and promised a shake-up.

The company's global president, Akio Toyoda, will be grilled at another hearing tomorrow, but he has already apologised for the deadly vehicle flaws.

The drivers of the so-called runaway Toyotas have harrowing tales.

One is Rhonda Smith, a Tennessee woman whose Lexus suddenly zoomed to 160 kilometres per hour as she drove down a highway in October 2006.

Her voice breaking with emotion, she recalled how she thought it was her time to die as her car sped out of control.

"I prayed for God to help me. I called my husband on the Bluetooth phone system, I knew ... I'm sorry. I knew he could not help me but I wanted to hear his voice one more time," she said.

The fault is called sudden unintended acceleration (SUA).

Ms Smith says she had both feet on the brake and put the car into reverse, but nothing would slow it down.

"After six miles God intervened as the car came very slowly to a stop," she said.

Safety record 'destroyed'

Her husband, Eddie Smith, told the hearing how Toyota then ignored the safety fears, chalking up the problem to the car's floor mats.

"To Toyota, I say your quality and safety record has been totally destroyed by your past and present words and actions. Now your integrity has come into play," he said.

The unintended acceleration problems have been linked to up to 30 deaths in the US.

Ms Smith has blasted not only Toyota but also the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) for ignoring the problem.

"Shame on you Toyota for being so greedy, and shame on you NHTSA for not doing your job," she said.

No electronics glitch

Toyota's US president James Lentz has begun his testimony.

"Put simply, it has taken us too long to come to grips with a rare but serious set of safety issues, despite all of our good-faith efforts," he said.

"The problem has also been compounded by our poor communications within our company and with regulators and consumers."

Mr Lentz says almost 1 million cars have now been repaired and that nothing matters more to Toyota than the safety and reliability of its vehicles.

But the company still insists the problems are limited to loose floor mats and sticky accelerators and not an electronics glitch.

"We are confident no problems exist in our electronic throttle systems in our vehicles," he said.

Tomorrow Mr Toyoda will testify. A copy of his prepared remarks shows he will say he is deeply sorry for any accidents Toyota drivers have experienced.

He will also admit the expansion of the world's number one carmarker may have been too quick and that the company's priorities became confused.

[Wally]

I've been watching the Congressional Hearing on Bloomberg. Even got up before the roosters to watch this morning.

Although the congressmen are acting at being polite, it is obvious they are deriving a certain amount of glee at the prospect taking down a foreign corporation.

The one standout was the guy from Kentucky. He wasn't going to have a bar of the witch hunt and made it very plain Toyota are an exemplary corporate citizen and valued employer.

And that woman in the Lexus, well she must have extraordinary talents, to be travelling erratically at 160kph, both feet on the brake, gearbox in reverse and still be able to call her husband on the mobile phone while considering driving her car into a safety barrier.

Poses a physics question: if a runaway Explorer is travelling eastbound at 160kph and a runaway Lexus is travelling the opposite direction at 160kph......

[vztrt]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...0226-p8h6.html

Sticky Toyotas 'safer than walking'
BARRY PARK
February 26, 2010

A US university study has revealed there’s more risk of being killed while walking than driving a Toyota with a sticky accelerator pedal.

Carnegie Melon University risk expert Professor Paul Fischbeck has calculated that the odds of being killed in a runaway Toyota is about one in 500,000, while walking down the street is 19 times – or 1900 per cent - more dangerous, than driving the same distance in a Toyota.

‘‘There hasn’t been a discussion about the actual risk of driving one of Toyota’s recalled vehicles,’’ Professor Fischbeck said in a statement released by the university yesterday.

‘‘Even the messages from the [US] Transportation Secretary have been confusing. First, it’s a recommendation not to drive the cars in question at all,’’ he said.

‘‘Then, that was retracted. I think it’s important for people to realise that when you look at the actual risk of driving one of these cars, it’s actually very low.’’

Professor Fischbeck’s calculations showed that the risk of death from driving an affected Toyota increased the risk of a fatality by 2 per cent. Even using a mobile phone while driving presented a higher risk, he said.

The US currently records just over one fatality for every 100 million miles (1.6 million kilometres) driven, with the average vehicle logging about 13,000 miles each year.

Professor Fischbeck said based on these averages, for the 2.3 million Toyotas being recalled, there were about 340 fatalities each year that were not related to the accelerator problem.

‘‘The accelerator problem is adding about six deaths every year to this total - meaning that the accelerator problem is increasing the driving risk by about 2 per cent,’’ he said.

‘‘Thinking about risks in terms of gambling, the chance of dying in a year because of the accelerator problem is about two in a million.

‘‘This is the same as flipping 19 coins one time each and getting 19 heads.’’

[Ohio XB]

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showpos...0&postcount=51

Originally Posted by Ohio XB on 02-02-10

I further predict that while the repairs are being made to over 2 million cars in the US, people who's pedal will have already been "fixed" will still experience the run-away acceleration that can occur while idling, or the sudden acceleration that can occur while maintaining cruising speed. This will point out the still existant root cause of these conditions which will NOT be a result of the pedal "sticking", but rather an electical issue that has yet to be discussed in public, or to the NHTSA. That will be a PR disaster for Toyota.

We'll see.



Steve

.....and so it begins.....


http://www.safetyresearch.net/2010/0...showing-again/

The Cracks in Toyota’s Recalls are Showing Again

The witness chairs in the House hearing chambers hadn’t even cooled, when Toyota owners who dutifully took their vehicles into the dealership for a pedal fix were reporting more sudden acceleration incidents to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

On February 24, the president of Toyota Motor Corporation, Akio Toyoda, raised his right hand before an investigative congressional oversight committee and swore: “I’m absolutely confident that there is no problem with the design of the ETC system.”

A day earlier, Toyota Motor Sales President Jim Lentz began his testimony before the House Committee on Energy and Commerce’s government oversight sub-committee by flogging Toyota’s confidence in the mechanical causes of SUA and the efficacy of the recalls.

Then, Lentz blinked.


Rep. Ed Markey of Massachusetts admonished Lentz for insisting that electronics played no part in the automaker’s SUA problems, while Toyota installed a brake to idle override in some recalled models:


“But you can’t have it both ways,” Markey said. “You can’t say there’s no problem but you’re trying to find a way to override something that’s not a problem. It leaves people with the impression that there must be a problem.”

“But that’s why you have to continually test and test and test,” Lentz said, “in the event that something develops. It could be – it could be a change in EMI. It could be a number of different things that we have to continually test and verify.”

Within five days of Toyoda’s assurances, several consumers offered a little anecdotal evidence to NHTSA. Here are four new complaints all generated in February, shortly after Toyota “fixed” the vehicles.

A 2009 Matrix owner had already had three SUA events while braking at a stop sign, when the recalls were announced. A little more than two weeks after Toyota performed the recall fixes she reported:

“On February 26th, I was driving about 5 mph in a parking area with my son. I put my foot on the brake and I felt the car push forward. I put my other foot on the brake as well. My son said ‘It’s doing it again mom!’ I put it in neutral and we both heard the engine wind out like I had pushed the gas pedal to the floor. This obviously means the recall ‘fix’ isn’t working! I contacted my dealer and am getting a loaner car. I am very concerned what this means in terms of future safety and my monetary investment in this car.”

The owner of a 2008 Avalon reported this post-recall-fix Feb. 25th incident:

“A few days later, the car was in reverse and was slowly backing out of a residential carport when it accelerated on its own and the car did about 3 loops around the garage area of the home causing damage to the car, benches, tree, bushes, lamp post, etc. This happened after the recalled defect was repaired. Owner of vehicle put in claim to her own insurance company, put in a call to the 800 Toyota number and had car towed to where she purchased the car. Everyone seems concerned, but only wants to repair the damage to the car rather than get to the root of the problem. We thought Toyota had the fix, but apparently not since accelerating and going out of control on an accelerated pace.”

The owner of a 2010 Camry filed this complaint:

On 2/12/10 my 2010 Toyota Camry received an acceleration fix. In addition I was informed a fail-safe computer program was put in. On 2/17/10 as I was entering my parking slot, the car did an unintended sudden acceleration without my foot being on the accelerator. I was pressing the brake. I jammed both feet into the brake. After 3 seconds, as my car was climbing up a snow bank, it stopped. The engine was idling while my gear shift was in drive. This is the second level on the fail-safe system. This means that: “If both accelerator position sensors fail, or if one throttle position sensor fails, the ECM will…return the engine to idle speed. Had the incident happened one minute earlier, I would have been in a high car/pedestrian area and would not have been able to avoid an accident. The whole event took 5-6 seconds before the car suddenly stopped. The fix done by Toyota is not the fix for the acceleration problem.”

The driver of a 2007 Camry XLE says that five days after getting the recall fix, this happened on Feb. 27:

“The contact states that his wife was driving when she was coasting to a stop sign at 10mph or less when she notices that her RPMs starting going up. The contact states when she took her foot off the brake the vehicle immediately accelerated on its own. The contact states that she was able to get to her friends house nearby. The contact also states that they lifted the accelerator up and then watched it immediately go back down on its own. The dealer was contacted about this issue and the vehicle is there now.”

Let’s see, not the floor mat, not a sticky accelerator pedal. What ever could be causing these incidents? We think Lentz was on to something, when he told Michigan Rep. John Dingell:

“We never rule out anything that could cause sudden, unintended acceleration.”

[Ohio XB]

Now we are up to 60 "fixed" cars still accerating on their own.....

Adding to the doubts, the government has received more than 60 complaints from Toyota owners who had their vehicles fixed following the recalls but say they've had more problems with their vehicles surging forward unintentionally. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is looking into the claims.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100305/..._toyota_recall


Steve

[vztrt]

‘Repaired’ Toyotas hit strife

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2576E0001EE313

US Toyota owners complain of unintended acceleration in recalled vehicles

8 March 2010

By RON HAMMERTON

TOYOTA’S unintended acceleration nightmare is unlikely to go away in a hurry after about 60 Toyota drivers whose cars had been fixed in the massive safety recall have lodged complaints with United States authorities that their vehicles have again suffered wayward throttle control.

US road safety watchdog National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has passed on the “verifiable information” from the drivers to Toyota, which says it will investigate.

So far, Toyota has recalled more than eight millions vehicles globally in a variety of recalls, most to rectify the unintended acceleration issue that it first blamed on incorrectly installed floor mats fouling accelerator pedals and then on sticky pedals from a particular US supplier.

It has consistently denied that the problem could be traced to electronic throttles in some vehicles.

But congressional investigators have written to Toyota bemoaning the lack of supporting documentation to prove the company's claim that its testing had proved unintended acceleration problems had nothing to do with electronic throttles.

They said Toyota had made “repeated assertions that no electronic defects contribute to incidents of unintended acceleration”.

House energy and commerce committee chairman, Californian Democrat Henry Waxman, did not hold back when he wrote to Toyota Motor Sales USA president James Lentz: “Despite our repeated requests, the record before the committee is most notable for what is missing: the absence of documents showing that Toyota has systematically investigated the possibility of electronic defects that could cause sudden unintended acceleration.”

The congressional committee now wants Toyota to produce employees with direct knowledge of the tests to stand before the committee to be quizzed.

Toyota says it will co-operate with the request, saying it would also supply a report by independent engineering consultant Exponent which it had hired to look at the issue.

“Toyota has offered to demonstrate the results of our further research and would welcome committee representatives to observe those demonstrations,” it said in a statement on Friday.

The electronic throttle theory was propelled on to the front pages when a professor from Southern Illinois University, David Gilbert, went before the Waxman committee saying he had been able to duplicate the electronic throttle problem in a Toyota vehicle.

Toyota has fired back at the allegations, describing Mr Gilbert’s test as erroneous and a “contrivance in a laboratory”.

“Toyota and Exponent’s evaluation conclusively demonstrates that Professor Gilbert’s experiment requires rewiring and artificially manipulating a vehicle’s electrical system and his results can be reproduced on other manufacturers’ vehicles,” Toyota said.

“Exponent also concluded that the condition artificially applied to a Toyota vehicle by Professor Gilbert is extraordinarily unlikely to occur naturally and, instead, represents a contrivance in a laboratory.”

Toyota said it was taking seriously reports of unintended acceleration in recalled cars, and was moving quickly to evaluate the vehicles and interview owners.

“Although most of these reports have yet to be verified, Toyota has been and remains committed to investigating all reported incidents of sudden acceleration in its vehicles quickly,” the company said in a statement.

“Toyota wants to hear directly from its customers about any problems they are experiencing with their vehicles.

“The results of the evaluations have been submitted to NHTSA for review.

“Though these reports involve a tiny fraction of the more than one million vehicles dealers have repaired to date, Toyota takes them extremely seriously.

“As NHTSA is now reviewing the results of our evaluations, it is inappropriate for Toyota to provide specific information about the company’s conclusions.

“However, the evaluations have found no evidence of a failure of the vehicle electronic throttle control system, the recent recall remedies or the brake override feature.”

The flames of Toyota’s recall woes have been fanned by recent reports that the company is being sued by relatives of an off-duty California Highway Patrol officer and three members of his family who died in a fiery crash in a loan Lexus last year – an incident that focused attention on the issue.

The US Transportation Department says it is investigating reports of 52 deaths resulting from unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles.

Reassurances from Toyota executives, including Toyota Motor Corporation president Akio Toyota, before the congressional committee that the car-maker was doing everything in its power to make its car safe were undermined last when documents were tabled before the congressional committee showing that former Toyota Motor North America president Jim Press warned fellow executives of declining safety and quality issues in 2006.

Meanwhile, Toyota is retrofitting recalled vehicles with advanced brake-override systems and would install it as standard in all new vehicles from 2011.

The software fix automatically slows a vehicle if it receives signals both to accelerate and brake, potentially overriding any unintended acceleration cause.

US regulators say they might make to the fix mandatory for all new vehicles sold in the country.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by vztrt

‘Repaired’ Toyotas hit strife

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2576E0001EE313

Originally Posted by goauto

The software fix automatically slows a vehicle if it receives signals both to accelerate and brake, potentially overriding any unintended acceleration cause.

US regulators say they might make to the fix mandatory for all new vehicles sold in the country.

There goes the chance to 'stall up' a vehicle. But several cars have that feature these days anyway.

As for some drivers of the repaired Toyota's saying that they are still having trouble. It might be a way for some owners just trying to 'walk away' from their purchase. Might even be super-sensitivity where they think the normal electronic throttle control operation (for emissions purposes) is faulty. Whatever the cause, because Toyota hid the problem for so long, the problem is largely of their own arrogance.

[Wally]

http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/e...ol-154300.aspx

[Ohio XB]

The news about the former Toyota lawyer having documents showing Toyota's hiding of info in lawsuits is old now, but here's just a little more light on that...


http://prop-w-a-mtc01.evip.aol.com/s...mation-cnncom/

Ex-Toyota lawyer says documents prove company hid damaging information - CNN.com »
Posted By TimALoftis 8 hours, 22 minutes ago in News

Los Angeles, California (CNN ) -- When former in-house defense attorney Dimitrios Biller resigned from his top post at Toyota, he walked out with something potentially more valuable than his nearly $4 million severance package.

He took some 6,000 internal documents, including memos and e-mails potentially damaging to his former employer.

"Not potentially, they are. They are very damaging," Biller said.

Biller, now entangled in litigation with the auto giant, defended the company in product liability and negligence cases from 2003 to 2007. He says he quit because of what he alleges were "criminal acts" by Toyota -- specifically, withholding information the company was legally required to turn over to plaintiffs' lawyers during litigation.

"There is a regular pattern and practice of not producing memos, minutes, reports, and e-mails," Biller said. "These documents can be used to establish liability against Toyota in product liability and negligence cases."

The documents -- some of which were reviewed by CNN -- were sent by Biller to Toyota officials. There are numerous references to so-called "Books of Knowledge," highly confidential information on design, safety systems and testing records allegedly generated by Toyota engineers on everything from roll-overs and roof safety to sudden unintended acceleration.

The chairman of a U.S. House committee investigating Toyota seems to agree with Biller, saying Toyota engaged in a "systematic disregard for the law and routine violation of court discovery orders in litigation."

Rep. Edolphus Towns, D-New York, whose committee subpoenaed Biller's documents, said "The material, I must admit, is very, very disturbing."

Toyota defends its actions, saying, "We are confident that we have acted appropriately with respect to all product liability litigation."

Yet so far, the company has fought to keep the documents confidential and away from court cases -- like Pennie Green's. The Texas native was 17 and driving to see a movie with her cousin when her life instantly changed.

"I didn't make it," she said.

A car turned in front of Green and, with no time to react, her 1997 Camry swerved, rolled over and landed upside down. "When I opened my eyes, my nose felt like it was almost touching my belly button I was so curled up."

Green never walked again. In 2005 she filed suit against Toyota, claiming the roof was defective because it didn't withstand the weight of the car like it should have.

Biller defended Toyota in that rollover case, brought by Green's lawyer, Jeff Embry.

"We certainly requested everything that had any relevance to our case at all and, in fact, we had to go to the court to have Toyota ordered to provide their information," said Embry, who added Toyota provided just enough information to show Toyota vehicles "met the minimum standards."

Green's case settled in 2006 for $1.5 million.

Included in Biller's documents is an e-mail he said he sent to his bosses summarizing negotiations. It says, "TMS [Toyota Motor Sales USA] concluded that it would be better to pay a premium to settle this case and avoid producing the 'Books of Knowledge.'"

Embry said he had no idea how close he'd come to uncovering Toyota's alleged secrets. "I think they were very careful to keep design information, very important information in Japan, out of reach of our system as much as possible," he said.

Although Toyota calls the materials "trade secrets," Embry said, "That doesn't mean that you get to keep them a secret from the court system."

So why, if Biller knew a judge had ordered all information produced, didn't he produce it? He said he tried but was stopped by a superior who told him, "You have to protect the client at all costs."

"Even if that includes," Biller asked, "committing criminal acts or violating the law?"

The answer, Biller said, was yes.

Did he break the law? "No, I did as much as I could as a lawyer for a client to not break the law," he said. "I wrote e-mail after e-mail, memo after memo, explaining the legal obligations Toyota and its affiliates needed to fulfill."

In response to Biller's documents and his allegations, Toyota spokeswoman Cindy Knight released this statement: "Mr. Biller continues to make inaccurate and misleading allegations about Toyota's conduct that we strongly dispute and will continue to fight against vigorously."

Before leaving Toyota four years ago, Biller had a nervous breakdown caused, he said, by stress. Still, he said, he is confident his e-mails left a trail showing he tried to change Toyota.

"The documents speak for themselves. I know what happened. I know exactly what happened. I know the names of the people who were responsible for it. I know where the skeletons are hidden."

As for Pennie Green, if a judge finds Toyota did hide documents, she said, "all I want is justice for that. They just need to take responsibility for their actions."

Embry has filed a motion in Texas with the state's 18th District Court to investigate whether Toyota unlawfully withheld evidence in Green's case and should be held in contempt.

So far Toyota has fought successfully to keep Biller's documents sealed and Biller from testifying.

[vztrt]

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/12/u...nvolving-debt/

Report: Unintended acceleration Prius case gets twist involving debt, technology

by Sebastian Blanco (RSS feed) on Mar 12th 2010 at 6:00PM

The unintended acceleration case of the second-generation Prius belonging to James Sikes now officially has an interesting backstory. Apparently, according to USAToday, Sikes' "case against Toyota is starting to look shaky." Why? Two reasons. First, and most important, is the technical argument. Toyota is saying that Sikes' Prius has a brake override system that should have slowed the car down in the situation Sikes has described to the media and to investigators. Also, looking at Audi's history with a similar problem back in the 1980s, it's often driver error that led to the acceleration, not a problem with the vehicles themselves.

Second, and only to consider possible motives for pretending something was wrong when there really wasn't, Sikes is apparently deep in debt according to financial records uncovered by Jalopnik. He has said repeatedly that he doesn't plan on suing Toyota, but he has retained a law firm.

As we said yesterday, there is no obvious explanation for why Sikes' Prius (and a similar model in New York a few days later) sped up and there's a case to be made that the hype is getting out of hand. Still, something happened, and the sooner we get the facts here, the better off we'll be. For now, we'll just have to file this under "Ongoing."

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by mik

...
One is Rhonda Smith, a Tennessee woman whose Lexus suddenly zoomed to 160 kilometres per hour as she drove down a highway in October 2006.

Her voice breaking with emotion, she recalled how she thought it was her time to die as her car sped out of control.

"I prayed for God to help me. I called my husband on the Bluetooth phone system, I knew ... I'm sorry. I knew he could not help me but I wanted to hear his voice one more time," she said.

The fault is called sudden unintended acceleration (SUA).

Ms Smith says she had both feet on the brake and put the car into reverse, but nothing would slow it down.

"After six miles God intervened as the car came very slowly to a stop," she said.
...

6 miles at 160kph takes about 10mins if my maths is correct.

I find it odd that neither her or her husband thought to turn off the ignition. Even the most special drivers knows that the engine wont run without the key in the ignition.

The more we delve into this issue, the more 'Chases' we seem to find.

At least she was smart enough to take it out of gear.

[Wally]

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyl...211_986136.htm


http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyl...rss_topStories

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by vztrt

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/12/u...nvolving-debt/

I've been discussing this at a local message board here in Ohio. I believe this guy is "chasing" Toyota like lawyers chase ambulances. He is also 5 payments behind on his Prius.

There was an event some years ago in the US where someone claimed to find a syringe in a can of Pepsi. This was all over the news and created quite a fright, especially after about 7 more people started to report finding the same thing.

What happened was the first person thought "finding a syringe" in a Pepsi can would be a good way to sue them for millions.......and they made the story up. The other 7 people thought the same thing; someone found a syringe in a Pepsi can, so if they claim the same thing they can get millions, and they made their claims.

After Pepsi was investigated and it was found the entire system of canning Pepsi is automated and there is no opportunity to be able to put a syringe in a can, all of these people were then investigated and they started confessing. They all did prison time for fraud/extortion, and whatever else.

I think this guy is one of those.


Steve

[XR Martin]

You have to remember alot of the Lexus' and top model Aurions dont have a key, so you cant pull it out to turn the car off.