Are We Being Too Harsh And Critial Of Ford Australia

[outback_ute]

I don't think we are too harsh, they have made some fairly large mistakes over the past few years - exhibit A is the gap in LPG product availability. When ~30% of their sales were LPG you have to wonder how they can end up with a 6-8 month period where they can't sell any cars, many potential customers will buy something else & perhaps not return.

It is not all Ford Australia of course, I'd expect they are severely constrained in product spending by Dearborn - but then again with the way the sales have been for the last decade you can't blame them.

Hopefully Ford Australia can identify a niche to survive in, including production, but it is hard to see against Thailand etc.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

I don't think we are too harsh, they have made some fairly large mistakes over the past few years - exhibit A is the gap in LPG product availability. When ~30% of their sales were LPG you have to wonder how they can end up with a 6-8 month period where they can't sell any cars, many potential customers will buy something else & perhaps not return.

if you knew the hurdles they've had to overcome, you would be glad it will be due out this year. development of the system was seriously interupted when the I6 was meant to make way for a V6. the I6 then got a stay of execution and so the lpg system then had to adapt.

there are also a few australian laws regarding the way lpg is purged without the engine running. i don't know how they've got around this with their single fuel setup, but these things don't happen overnight. then there's making sure the product is reliable etc etc.

i'm sure they didn't plan to have a gap, but the old setup failed to me current emissions laws so had to be discontinued.

[Polyal]

People dont wait around for excuses.....FoA with regards to manufacturing deserve what they get. You reap what you sow.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Polyal

People dont wait around for excuses.....FoA with regards to manufacturing deserve what they get. You reap what you sow.

But having said that,
as soon as Ford starts selling EcoLPI that fleets have been eagerly waiting for, sales should return.
it's like Territory, give the market the long expected diesel and back come the sales,
Ford just has to start selling those vehicles-engine combinations that interest buyers,
do that and they will return...it's not rocket science.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I don't buy it, that's just the story put out to kill off any argument, Ford would never
have bid for the Focus contract in the first place if they couldn't make money on it.
This is the company that vetoed exports that were unprofitable then signing up
for an unprofitable locally produced small car? None of it seems to gel does it?

Thats the thing though, they never put any stories out about cancelling the Focus program, not publicly at least. They never explained why they couldn't do it to any media, it was kept in house.

Its costs just about the same to build a small car as it does a large one, same numbers of employees and fixed costs etc, its just that they contain less steel and a few less parts. And you can charge $40 k for a large one but only half that for a small one, so profit is only a tiny bit of what you can get for a large car. It might have been viable if they were building them in huge numbers like they do in some of the huge capacity plants overseas, but probably not viable in a plant that would have only built something like 25,000 a year, which I think was their expected figure.

When they first announced plans to build the Focus, it was done as a smokescreen to divert bad news away from the decision to close the engine plant. They didn't even know if it was viable at that stage as they hadn't done a full cost analysis. They would have just assumed it was viable after a quick numbers crunch, and if they weren't going to close the engine plant they wouldn't have even mentioned the Focus, we probably wouldn't have even know about it, they would have done the analysis and killed it without the public knowing.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by stang65

Got a BA XR6 turbo no diff clunk, Territory rust in tailgate a little surface rust under rubber done by dealer no issuses. As i said it seems Holden owners are more forgiving. Mate has got a second hand VY calais out of warranty the distance to empty tells him he has got a 1/3 of a tank of petrol when he has a full tank. but he stilll holden true. He doesn`t blame Holden ewven though he got new firmware on the ECU didn`t fix it, was told it could be a bent float in the fuel tank common problem on VY`S.

Well on raw numbers not all Holden owners are forgiving either. Their market share is much smaller then a few years ago too.

Your fortunate positive experience with a BA, doesn't negate those that didn't. Some had paint issues with BA, I didn't on my two B series cars. I don't believe that negates the fact that some had to have a complete respray. Same principal for Territory. I've never understood that argument that somehow my experience negates others or others invalidates mine.

Maybe the crux of this is if you ship dodgy parts or build quality, which has happened in sufficient instances to be noticed here and in the media and you don't follow up, you loose customers, now and in the future. Die hards might hang around or explain away like your mate did and you have with the rust on your Terri, but then you just start whittling them away too over time. Soon its an echo chamber of the few making excuses and the real customers have left the brand.

Whatever way you look at it, its just not smart business.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by prydey

what hole is that? they increased market share last month and all reports have them making a profit for 2010.

many on here still think they are the falcon car company. those days look to be behind them as all their other models are selling pretty well.

They might be making a profit, but it's rather plain that there's problems within the company for them wanting to shed so many jobs. It's only logic. If the were confident they were doing well, there's no way they'd want to shed jobs now.

Ford Aust is a Falcon car company. All the other Fords are imported, which is why I think they should start producing a small car in this country. It can only help keep people employed.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

They might be making a profit, but it's rather plain that there's problems within the company for them wanting to shed so many jobs. It's only logic. If the were confident they were doing well, there's no way they'd want to shed jobs now.

That's not necessarily true. The assumption from everyone now, based on the article relating to 240 voluntary redundancies seems to be that Ford is failing. Yes, demand for one product has fallen, but I don't see that as Ford being in trouble.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

.

Its costs just about the same to build a small car as it does a large one, same numbers of employees and fixed costs etc, its just that they contain less steel and a few less parts. And you can charge $40 k for a large one but only half that for a small one, so profit is only a tiny bit of what you can get for a large car. It might have been viable if they were building them in huge numbers like they do in some of the huge capacity plants overseas, but probably not viable in a plant that would have only built something like 25,000 a year, which I think was their expected figure.

Your Fixed costs are not fixed costs though, if you have an existing factory and you're
adding a product, it simply rebalancing the line and using a slight increase in staff,

The Focus contract that went to Thailand will build the same number of vehicles there
as would be the case here and further, the majority for Australai would be the more
profitable mid and high series cars....just like Holden is currently doing with Cruze.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by vztrt

I don't like FWD cause the way it drives, and yes I've driven plenty. Driven plenty of Focus and wouldn't buy one based on my drives.

They don't behave any differently unless you go around driving like Mark Webber all the time. I've drive FWD and some RWD cars and I can't tell the difference if I drive like a sane person.

FWD is better because its more space efficient, handles better in crappy conditions because of the weight over the steering/driving wheels and costs less to produce.

Get into a BMW 1 series hatch and try fit someone in the back seat.

Originally Posted by mik

do you think so? i tow one of the old style heavy 16 ft caravans on occasion, i tow cars, and on occasion a focus sized trailer as does my mate, i still see quite a few sedans towing, but i would agree there maybe less doing tow duty compared to bigger 4x4`s these days.

Then you're probably breaching the 2.2T LEGAL towing capacity on a (automatic) Falcon.

Where I live in the sticks, its all dual cab/wagon 4X4s, SUVs and a fair few Silverados and F series trucks doing the heavy lifting, when I go to the tip its a few sedans and us in our 323 with our little 6x4 taking weeds to the tip.

[jpd80]

I believe there's justification to buils Mondeo alongside of Falcon and Territory,
much more justification than Focus which has gone to Thailand in any regard.

Mondeo built locally would give Ford more green credentials and also offers regional exports.
If worst comes to worst, then Ford already has a variation of Falcon's successor in place......

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I believe there's justification to buils Mondeo alongside of Falcon and Territory,
much more justification than Focus which has gone to Thailand in any regard.

Mondeo built locally would give Ford more green credentials and also offers regional exports.
If worst comes to worst, then Ford already has a variation of Falcon's successor in place......

Yes and while you're at it, build this off the Mondeo's platform (even though its CD3 not EUCD). Would make a brilliant competitor to the CX7 and stablemate to the Territory

[banarcus]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I believe there's justification to buils Mondeo alongside of Falcon and Territory,
much more justification than Focus which has gone to Thailand in any regard.

Mondeo built locally would give Ford more green credentials and also offers regional exports.
If worst comes to worst, then Ford already has a variation of Falcon's successor in place......

Mondeo is bigger than Falcons in the past and would fit into the large car sector quite easily without a Falcon. I'd prefer a Mondeo over a Taurus.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

That's not necessarily true. The assumption from everyone now, based on the article relating to 240 voluntary redundancies seems to be that Ford is failing. Yes, demand for one product has fallen, but I don't see that as Ford being in trouble.

Sorry mate, but any company that offers a redundancy to people is running into some financial trouble, so the first thing they do is offer these sorts of packages to employees to help return the business into the black. if the business doesn't return to the black, it folds. If it returns to the black, and things start picking up, then they start employing more staff.

This isn't just the car manufacturing industry either. It's based on the whole business world.

However if you want to use the car industry as an example, which is what this thread is based on, Mitsubishi offered redundancy packages to it's employees, between the Magna production being ceased and the 380 being started. Then when the 380 was being produced they cut back production to help, but unfortunately, that didn't work and they folded in this country.


Then Holden did the same thing about 12 to 18 months ago. Offered redundancy packages to employees, which quite a few took up. Then the company cut back production to help save the plant. Then the market place picked up, so they increased production and hired more staff to cope with demand.


So looking at that, how could not assume anything but it's in some sort of financial trouble? That is Ford Australia, not Ford globally.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Sorry mate, but any company that offers a redundancy to people is running into some financial trouble, so the first thing they do is offer these sorts of packages to employees to help return the business into the black. if the business doesn't return to the black, it folds. If it returns to the black, and things start picking up, then they start employing more staff.

This isn't just the car manufacturing industry either. It's based on the whole business world.

However if you want to use the car industry as an example, which is what this thread is based on, Mitsubishi offered redundancy packages to it's employees, between the Magna production being ceased and the 380 being started. Then when the 380 was being produced they cut back production to help, but unfortunately, that didn't work and they folded in this country.


Then Holden did the same thing about 12 to 18 months ago. Offered redundancy packages to employees, which quite a few took up. Then the company cut back production to help save the plant. Then the market place picked up, so they increased production and hired more staff to cope with demand.


So looking at that, how could not assume anything but it's in some sort of financial trouble? That is Ford Australia, not Ford globally.

I'm not going to get into the 'business world' discussion with you, I've already given my point of view previously. I don't need to argue it any further.

I'm well aware of what other companies have done...I just don't plan on attending Ford Australia's funeral just yet...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Then Holden did the same thing about 12 to 18 months ago. Offered redundancy packages to employees, which quite a few took up. Then the company cut back production to help save the plant. Then the market place picked up, so they increased production and hired more staff to cope with demand. .

Actually I recall it quite differently, Holden on the back of steep losses for Pontiac G8 couldn't
afford to make one shift redundant so ended up putting both shifts on half work/half pay
until just recently when they fired up local Cruze production...

On topic,
I choose to believe that Ford continues to right production capacity to true market need
for the moment but reserves the right to add shifts or speed up the line as future demand dictates.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

They don't behave any differently unless you go around driving like Mark Webber all the time. I've drive FWD and some RWD cars and I can't tell the difference if I drive like a sane person.

They do drive differently, even parking they exhibit different characteristics. Maybe your to busy playing with your gizmo's...hope you don't kill someone one day.

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

They don't behave any differently unless you go around driving like Mark Webber all the time. I've drive FWD and some RWD cars and I can't tell the difference if I drive like a sane person.
FWD is better because its more space efficient, handles better in crappy conditions because of the weight over the steering/driving wheels and costs less to produce.

True, they do handle the crap conditions much better but the rest of the time they are quite wallowy. Maybe not so much in a midsize/small FWD but drive a large FWD like Magna or Avalon and try to tell us they handle the same as a large RWD. RWD gives a much tighter turning circle and easier parking as well.

Get into a BMW 1 series hatch and try fit someone in the back seat.

Who would buy a 1 series with the intention of carrying anyone but themselves! I know I wouldn't.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

I don't think we are too harsh, they have made some fairly large mistakes over the past few years - exhibit A is the gap in LPG product availability. When ~30% of their sales were LPG you have to wonder how they can end up with a 6-8 month period where they can't sell any cars, many potential customers will buy something else & perhaps not return.

It is not all Ford Australia of course, I'd expect they are severely constrained in product spending by Dearborn - but then again with the way the sales have been for the last decade you can't blame them.

Hopefully Ford Australia can identify a niche to survive in, including production, but it is hard to see against Thailand etc.

Could Ford pull off making and selling a premium niche RWD car? I think they could.

But like it always has. It comes down to the backing from the US. And I don't mean... "yeah.. cool, we like it. We'll pay the bills." I mean; "Lets get behind what you're doing down there. And lets take what you offer to more places."

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Yes and while you're at it, build this off the Mondeo's platform (even though its CD3 not EUCD). Would make a brilliant competitor to the CX7 and stablemate to the Territory

I drove a vehicle just like that one in white back in 2009, the 3.5 was a strong performer.
Personally, I think that's why Ford NA is doing so well with Fusion and Edge....(Mazda)

If we had aligned with Mazda, we would have had some fine vehicles for sure,
but One Ford promises to do much more for us especially with Thailand factories.
The world has infinite possibilities from this point, FoA just has to make it all happen....

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by vztrt

They do drive differently, even parking they exhibit different characteristics. Maybe your to busy playing with your gizmo's...hope you don't kill someone one day.

What gizmo's? Ford has a distinct lack of gizmos in our cars offered over here. I've got a single CD stereo with MP3 playback and an auxiliary port, thats about as advanced as we get in our cars from Ford unfortunately. Oh and some controls mounted to the steering collumn, whoopie-do. Unfortunately if you want to sell a car in 2011 you need gizmos.

Drive differently? The Falcon handles with the finesse of a cargo container ship anyways, as if you need your distinct "handling advantage" of RWD in it, its supposed to be some comfy cruiser family sedan, with a transverse engine you'd have more leg room. The Falcon doesn't even have a reason to exist because of Mondeo and frankly either does FoA's ability to manufacture.

The customer is showing their choice with the lack of Falcon sales, if it was so freakin' great, why does no one buy it? I don't care that Ford made $.50 cents profit last financial year, if the Falcon isn't making money, than death to it.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

What gizmo's? Ford has a distinct lack of gizmos in our cars offered over here. I've got a single CD stereo with MP3 playback and an auxiliary port, thats about as advanced as we get in our cars from Ford unfortunately. Oh and some controls mounted to the steering collumn, whoopie-do. Unfortunately if you want to sell a car in 2011 you need gizmos.

Drive differently? The Falcon handles with the finesse of a cargo container ship anyways, as if you need your distinct "handling advantage" of RWD in it, its supposed to be some comfy cruiser family sedan, with a transverse engine you'd have more leg room. The Falcon doesn't even have a reason to exist because of Mondeo and frankly either does FoA's ability to manufacture.

The customer is showing their choice with the lack of Falcon sales, if it was so freakin' great, why does no one buy it? I don't care that Ford made $.50 cents profit last financial year, if the Falcon isn't making money, than death to it.

The reason why no one buys the Falcon... is immediately apparent when you look in the mirror Damo.

Unfortunately a majority of the populace are morons. The rest aren't interested in cars. Some see it as a nerdy stigma to be interested in cars.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

The reason why no one buys the Falcon... is immediately apparent when you look in the mirror Damo.

Agreed, so do you fix it or do you play ignorance and blame it on the market?

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

The reason why no one buys the Falcon... is immediately apparent when you look in the mirror Damo.

Unfortunately a majority of the populace are morons. The rest aren't interested in cars. Some see it as a nerdy stigma to be interested in cars.

He actually has a valid point - if it's not selling, why operate at a loss to satisfy a clear minority.

As far as calling the majority of the populace morons, I'd steer well clear of that. The people have just spoken when it comes to cars that THEY want...and they clearly don't want the Falcon at the moment...

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I drove a vehicle just like that one in white back in 2009, the 3.5 was a strong performer. Personally, I think that's why Ford NA is doing so well with Fusion and Edge....(Mazda)

If we had aligned with Mazda, we would have had some fine vehicles for sure,
but One Ford promises to do much more for us especially with Thailand factories. The world has infinite possibilities from this point, FoA just has to make it all happen....

You could easily see the Edge take up from where the Territory leaves, and it could be made here built on CD4 underpinnings. Imagine if FoA had a decent three-tier SUV lineup with the Kuga, Edge and T6 SUV...they'd have the SUV market sussed.

[stang65]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

What gizmo's? Ford has a distinct lack of gizmos in our cars offered over here. I've got a single CD stereo with MP3 playback and an auxiliary port, thats about as advanced as we get in our cars from Ford unfortunately. Oh and some controls mounted to the steering collumn, whoopie-do. Unfortunately if you want to sell a car in 2011 you need gizmos.

Drive differently? The Falcon handles with the finesse of a cargo container ship anyways, as if you need your distinct "handling advantage" of RWD in it, its supposed to be some comfy cruiser family sedan, with a transverse engine you'd have more leg room. The Falcon doesn't even have a reason to exist because of Mondeo and frankly either does FoA's ability to manufacture.

The customer is showing their choice with the lack of Falcon sales, if it was so freakin' great, why does no one buy it? I don't care that Ford made $.50 cents profit last financial year, if the Falcon isn't making money, than death to it.

If I may without offending you, you currently drive a FWD vehicle your happy with the way it handles. Thats great but FWD drive and RWD both have their benefits.

Some people don`t like FWD, I`m one of them , yes i could drive it once a week but getting into a FWD car everyday is not for me (I`m 43 I`m neither young or a bogan that wants to do burnouts) Front wheel drive handles well until you lose grip then it`s close your eyes and hope for the best.

It also is terrible on bumpy roads/ pot holes and even with traction control you can still have torque steer in the wet.

As I said earlier you either like or don`t like but don`t try to force your view on people. I would never buy a FWD Mondeo and consider it a replacement for a Falcon.

Kind regards
Keep Smiling.

[tezxr8man]

Originally Posted by g220ba

Fantastic post mate

DAMM Straight!!!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by stang65

If I may without offending you, you currently drive a FWD vehicle your happy with the way it handles. Thats great but FWD drive and RWD both have their benefits.

Some people don`t like FWD, I`m one of them , yes i could drive it once a week but getting into a FWD car everyday is not for me (I`m 43 I`m neither young or a bogan that wants to do burnouts) Front wheel drive handles well until you lose grip then it`s close your eyes and hope for the best.

It also is terrible on bumpy roads/ pot holes and even with traction control you can still have torque steer in the wet.

As I said earlier you either like or don`t like but don`t try to force your view on people. I would never buy a FWD Mondeo and consider it a replacement for a Falcon.

Kind regards
Keep Smiling.

No offence taken and good to see someone giving their point of view.

Lose grip, yeah you lose steering too thats when you back off the accelerator but because its a RWD car doesn't mean it magically won't understeer either, plus oversteer is harder to control in my opinion.

I live out in the country so I traverse crappy country and dirt roads on a daily basis, I find there isn't really an issue with a FWD car except that if I hit a hole around a corner the wheel will pull, but if you're driving reasonably there is no issue really. The only time I've experienced this was in the Fiesta and going up the onramp from the Tulla freeway to the Western ring road and I was doing 60km/h.

The only time FWD cars torque steer are when you are giving it some, my TDCI Focus won't torque steer unless you provoke it to.

Theres also more to a car then if its RWD, FWD or AWD, its only part of the package, the Falcon might be good there with its "bullet proof" I6, but thats all it has going for it in my opinion, the rest of the package sucks.

I'm not forcing my view on anyone, I'm just stating the facts, barely anyone is buying Falcon, Ford cutting 240 jobs, still deciding on the future of the Falcon, boasting about new awesome technology and vehicles which aren't even on the market yet, etc. Hype is all good, but unfortunately thats all they have to show, i want to believe, but it looks bleak.

[stang65]

Quote"Lose grip, yeah you lose steering too thats when you back off the accelerator but because its a RWD car doesn't mean it magically won't understeer either, plus oversteer is harder to control in my opinion."

Fair enough, Your opinion, but with RWD you can use the accelerator to get you out of trouble as the front wheel is doing the steering and thee rwd are getting power to the ground and can alter the dynamics.




Thanks , but as noted it`s not losing sales because it`s RWD either, the Mondeo has increased in sales so maybe they are taken some Falcon sales. Holden have shown you can have a Large RWD and still sell. So It`s either Ford U.S hampering Ford AU of Ford AU need a big kick up the bum and stop stalling and become more innovative with the product and the marketing.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

No offence taken and good to see someone giving their point of view.

Lose grip, yeah you lose steering too thats when you back off the accelerator but because its a RWD car doesn't mean it magically won't understeer either, plus oversteer is harder to control in my opinion.

I live out in the country so I traverse crappy country and dirt roads on a daily basis, I find there isn't really an issue with a FWD car except that if I hit a hole around a corner the wheel will pull, but if you're driving reasonably there is no issue really. The only time I've experienced this was in the Fiesta and going up the onramp from the Tulla freeway to the Western ring road and I was doing 60km/h.

The only time FWD cars torque steer are when you are giving it some, my TDCI Focus won't torque steer unless you provoke it to.

Theres also more to a car then if its RWD, FWD or AWD, its only part of the package, the Falcon might be good there with its "bullet proof" I6, but thats all it has going for it in my opinion, the rest of the package sucks.

I'm not forcing my view on anyone, I'm just stating the facts, barely anyone is buying Falcon, Ford cutting 240 jobs, still deciding on the future of the Falcon, boasting about new awesome technology and vehicles which aren't even on the market yet, etc. Hype is all good, but unfortunately thats all they have to show, i want to believe, but it looks bleak.

I think that maybe you are not a very good driver.