Unions urge Toyota workers to reject reforms

[stazza]

Originally Posted by BA GT-HO

AMWU member for years. Been there done that. The problem with most union negotiated EBAs is that the best bloke in the plant still gets paid as much as the worst. Also it is just something bludgers can hide behind. Drinking on site? Go in with a union rep and the worst you will get is a rehab course! Bollocks.

Not sure what site that was on but a bloke got caught smoking in work hours on Friday and he got the ***. Nevermind the supervisors smoking during work hours, they have varying breaks apparently, I'd love to see their agreement that states that.

I have been on non union jobs where the bloke thats been there 10 years and bludges all day gets paid more because he knows the boss.

Isn't it up to the supervisor to ensure blokes aren't bludging? That's how it works where I am.

By the way how do you measure who the best worker is? Usually blokes that have proven themselves are promoted to leading hand and paid accordingly.

[BA GT-HO]

Makes it hard when there are only a few leading hand positions.

I am not going to argue with you anymore mate, we have to agree to disagree. I just hope in future you can look beyond what you have experienced and realize that we are indeed in a lucky country. Part of the reason for this is due to unions and the rights they have fought for, however you also have to realize that times have changed since those days. We are now competing on a global scale and to remain competitive and to retain jobs here certain things will have to change. One of those things being attitudes of entitlement. I am not saying pay everyone the same as a Chinese worker, but this current situation is clearly unsustainable for manufacturing in general.

You either adapt or shut down. Its a harsh old world.

[PlukaDuck]

Non union is like the farmer hypocrits....lol
They employ 457 workers who take the money out of the country and then get on public television in there overpriced and overated imported Toyota landcruisers. and wonder why nobody is buying there goods
I believed even a non unionist would be smart enough to understand that if you don't employ Australians they don't have money to spend here.
But apparently there not that smart are they?.....
The cycle starts right there.

[stazza]

Originally Posted by BA GT-HO

Makes it hard when there are only a few leading hand positions.

I am not going to argue with you anymore mate, we have to agree to disagree. I just hope in future you can look beyond what you have experienced and realize that we are indeed in a lucky country. Part of the reason for this is due to unions and the rights they have fought for, however you also have to realize that times have changed since those days. We are now competing on a global scale and to remain competitive and to retain jobs here certain things will have to change. One of those things being attitudes of entitlement. I am not saying pay everyone the same as a Chinese worker, but this current situation is clearly unsustainable for manufacturing in general.

You either adapt or shut down. Its a harsh old world.

I am happy to agree to disagree, each to their own. However, I think it is bullshit that unions are getting the blame for everything that is wrong.

Ofcourse there are ridiculous claims and negotiation attempts by unions, and unfortunately, them not knowing when enough is is enough tarnishes their reputation. Yes there has been bullying etc... hy unions, but I think there should be an equal balance.

If we were to all shut our mouths and adopt the attitude of it is what it is and so be it, then we are all in strife. The car industry is the way it is because we let it happen. If the FTA's were brought to public attention at the right time, whenever that may have been, then maybe the industry wouldn't be in shambles, and maybe ridiculous union claims would not have happened.

Just like in my own experiences, if you give the boss and inch, he will take a mile, if he sees you are easily manipulated and won't stand up for yourself then they won't offer you any entitlements or conditions out of the kindness of their heart.

I think the union is crucial in keeping the divide between employees and employers a lot less greater.

[BA GT-HO]

Again I think a common issue is the 'us vs them' mentality. Somewhere out there back in the day someone had the balls to go out and start a business. It is very easy to become a whingeing employee and criticize management, the boss or whoever, but at the end of the day if there were no people like your boss or owners in the world we wouldn't be sitting here arguing on a forum. Yes, there have been some shonky employers out there who take advantage of people, but that it not always the case. Unions tend to label every employer as a mob of crooks or whatever. I guess it helps build the myth of 'protection' and somewhat justifies the union dues people are paying.

If there were no employers there would be no employees.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by fte50

However if you HONESTLY believe even the most non demanding of jobs in a vehicle manufacturing environment require no more than the above level of skill set(or lack of) well your plain wrong.

So to prove your point, you pick the easiest possible job in process work? Honestly, if you think that's a valid argument for high pay for assembly work, no wonder Holden are about to pull the pin.

The dead wood was flushed long ago.

If the article quoted above showing 1 supervisor per 6 workers is accurate, I'd say you have a pretty dubious definition of dead wood.

Rocket scientists they are not (some close) however the days of a fixed brain dead routine are long gone.

We're talking assembly line workers, not the engineers that design the car. If you think they come remotely close to rocket science, you're ignorant of truly *skilled* work.

FYI, in a previous career, I was responsible for the operation of a $1.5mil device, requiring 8 years of training. For that I was paid 20-25% more than an assembly line worker (at award rate). If there's a skills shortage in this country, THAT is why - we massively overpay those with minimal skillset, removing the incentive for people to skill up.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by stazza

our union negotiated EBA has ensured we earn what we are entitled to

entitled, the most over-used word in Australia.

supply and demand. you wont be entitled to jack once demand for your services dries up. then what will your union do?

what we should be working towards is sustainability. sadly, too often unions look for short-term gains, to hell with long term viability.

I hope my kids and grandkids have better career options than pouring lattes, but at the rate we're shipping jobs overseas, its looking doubtful...

[stazza]

Originally Posted by BA GT-HO

Again I think a common issue is the 'us vs them' mentality. Somewhere out there back in the day someone had the balls to go out and start a business. It is very easy to become a whingeing employee and criticize management, the boss or whoever, but at the end of the day if there were no people like your boss or owners in the world we wouldn't be sitting here arguing on a forum. Yes, there have been some shonky employers out there who take advantage of people, but that it not always the case. Unions tend to label every employer as a mob of crooks or whatever. I guess it helps build the myth of 'protection' and somewhat justifies the union dues people are paying.

If there were no employers there would be no employees.

Yes but in the same token the boss is not always in the right. If someone starts a business and employs someone to help the business grow and prosper, then I think the employee is almost just as valuable.

The us vs them mentality - I wont go in to detail, however during the inductions for my current employment, us blue collars were told that everyone - bosses and employees are under the same set of rules and are to be held equally accountable as far as safety and rules/regs go. We are told that over nearly 2 weeks of inductions.

However, it is a completely different story when you get to site. I had an issue where a member of supervision approached my crane yelling about some bullshit, distracting me from my job and taking my eyes off the dogman, potentially putting his life at risk. There is a big yellow sign on the crane saying do not distract operator whilst crane is in operation. Plus it is common knowledge onsite not to approach the operator mid lift.

I ordered a meeting with the super intendents, I was told that supervision is under a different set of rules. Because they didn't want to discipline one of their own, they bend the rules to suit them. What if the load swung and cut off my riggers fingers? It has happened countless times in the industry.

Needless to say I contacted my union delegate and he sat in as representation for a following meeting, the supervisor got a written earning for it. I have had written warnings for far less.

This is my point, more often than not they create the us vs them mentality IN MY EXPERIENCES ANYWAY. Had there been no union representation, I'd have looked like a whinging fool and have a target painted on my back.

[cheap]

Why does GM have to build in Australia when I can build cars in South Korea, ship these to Australia, and make more money?

Last time I looked GM was not a charity, it owes as much to Australia as Hyundai, so why aren't people banging on the door of Hyundai demanding it build stuff here?

[superyob]

Originally Posted by cheap

Why does GM have to build in Australia when I can build cars in South Korea, ship these to Australia, and make more money?

Last time I looked GM was not a charity, it owes as much to Australia as Hyundai, so why aren't people banging on the door of Hyundai demanding it build stuff here?

Because Hyundai has no existing manufacture here...

[cheap]

Originally Posted by superyob

Because Hyundai has no existing manufacture here...

What does having existing manufacturing have to do with it?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by stazza

If someone starts a business and employs someone to help the business grow and prosper, then I think the employee is almost just as valuable.

I agree, but there's a big difference between your and my definition of helping the business prosper. You think anyone who turns up for work fulfils the definition. I don't.

The one that helps the business prosper is the one that helps the business grow by finding work/clients, proactively improves productivity and/or costs, etc.

Rightly, such workers get paid commensurately with the input to the business's bottom line. The guy that sticks widget X to widget Y and nothing else simply isn't in the same league, and doesn't deserve as big a share of the reward. Unions. Don't. Get. This.

[dimka100]

With the number of traditional manufacturing jobs in the country dwindling, so is the number of people willing to be with a union with it. Every day the unions are becoming less and less relevant and their political influence is getting smaller and smaller.

I personally can’t wait for the day when this country is no longer influenced by the unions, when the Labour Party is no longer dependant on union members voting them into parliament, and when our way of thinking has finally progressed into the 21st century rather than being stuck in the days of the old.

When it comes to Ford, Holden, and Toyota, it’s the unions themselves that have everything to lose. After all they are simply handing over more reasons to the parent companies of why they should close shop up here and move back to their corresponding countries or invest somewhere else. It amazes me how silly the unions still are and how little have they evolved with the changing times. Like all such things they will be slowly eradicated through evolution i.e. survival of the fittest - and in this case it’s the companies and not the unions!

[b0son]

Originally Posted by stazza

Talking out of your ***. How does sustainability lie in the unions hands? We work at the rate the company wants us to work at, be it fast or slow.

In 1991, the pre-enterprise bargaining award wage of a Holden entry level process worker was $462.80 a week. In 1992, Holden began enterprise bargaining and now a worker at that same classification level has a base rate of $1194.50 a week, a 158 per cent increase, or a compound increase of 4.4 per cent year on year for 22 years

CPI over the same length of time was 2.6% compounding.

Tell me what is remotely sustainable about a wage claim almost double CPI? In an industry that is benefitting from improvements in safety and automation which improve working conditions, making the job easier.

And that is before we even bring up the ridiculous redundancy provisions.

The best solution now would be for Holden to find a buyer for the site, and a new non-union workforce is brought in at award rates.

[Serial_Fool]

Everyone can say what they want here, but Toyota is a multinational company that can make the Camry in any country it pleases and would still be able to sell them.

How many Australians are even aware that Toyota makes vehicles in Australia? I don't think there would be many.

[Bossxr8]

Do all the morons bagging unions also realise that just about every other first world auto manufacturing business has unions too?

It is not the reason people are not buying Australian made cars and if you think the union is the cause of this you truly have no clue whatsoever.

Wages only make up a small fraction of the costs involved in building cars here.

[BadMax]

Entitlement...LOL

One of my employees just had their first child and they are getting all uppity and ****ed off at the government making the paper work too hard to get their parental leave...that they are entitled to!

Well bugger me, my parents didn't get a cent, both worked full time, didn't spend money on things they didn't need, drove oldish cars etc etc. But hey, the government is offering a handout!

I'll keep saying it...live within your means! Stop making your debt someone else's problem!

Don't you think every pay rise you get is just going to get gobbled up somewhere along the line!

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Wages only make up a small fraction of the costs involved in building cars here.

That's why their projected closure cost (mostly redundancy/entitlements) is a paltry $600mil ($300k per person)

[Wretched]

I think just about everyone here should watch the BBC Das Auto documentary.
It's about the British car industry and how it coped with the introduction of cheap German imports.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qELMyJPmrlU

It might deal a few here a much needed attitude adjustment.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by stazza

Not sure what site that was on but a bloke got caught smoking in work hours on Friday and he got the ***. Nevermind the supervisors smoking during work hours, they have varying breaks apparently, I'd love to see their agreement that states that.

Its alright if you smoke during work hours at my work if you're in the smokers club, because it includes supervisors AND managers, everyone at the top smokes.

Me and another work mate look up from our job and we've got people crawling so far up our *** they nearly come out our mouths.

They smoke inside the workshop too.

Originally Posted by b0son

That's why their projected closure cost (mostly redundancy/entitlements) is a paltry $600mil ($300k per person)

Good, it should hurt if they want to take tax payer money then take their bat and ball and head home.

$600,000,000 penalty sounds like a pretty good reason to keep going.

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by stazza

Umm didn't Holden do the exact same thing and look where they are now. Holden promised they'd make another model in 2017 or whatever if the workers signed the new agreement. Now they will be shafted. I think regardless of the pay cuts or not, Holden would still close their doors not long after Ford.

I wouldn't fall for their bullshit that taking a pay cut will provide a more stable longterm job.

The unions know whats up, but the usual suspects on here are yes men and would get shafted at the drop of a hat because they think the company wants to look after then.

Know this - no company gives a **** about you. Each and every one of you are expendable.

Yes the only thing pay cuts will do is improve the bottom line until they ultimately pull the pin. Labour cost reductions are only a part of the "problem". It doesn't take a genius to figure out that pay cuts don't equal job security - just a smaller pay packet and the same risk of being canned.

You work hard, negotiate pay rises over the years and then someone comes along and wants to rip out all those gains from probably the last couple of EBAs and wonder why the workers tell them to go jump.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by stazza

Yes but in the same token the boss is not always in the right. If someone starts a business and employs someone to help the business grow and prosper, then I think the employee is almost just as valuable

Employees help a company grow, but employees are replaceable. The company offers work for a given compensation. People decide to accept it or leave it and let someone else do it for what the company offers to pay. What is ridiculous is people accepting an offer and then demanding they deserve more. What would the world be like if it happened the other way around? You go to McDonald's, you agree to their price then they take your money and don't hand you the food till you pay them more than you originally agreed! Or you call a plumber or electrician, they agree to a certain price, start the job and won't finish it until you pay more. It's ok to do it to a corporation, but man if someone does it to us we go all psycho.

Originally Posted by stazza

Had there been no union representation, I'd have looked like a whinging fool and have a target painted on my back.

If Detroit had no union representation, there would be a thriving city full of people with jobs. Instead it's a hole full of abandoned and foreclosed homes. Oh well, at least the people who used to live and work there got a few entitlements.

[fte50]

Unions -For all the pros & cons, for & against, believers & pessimists of unions one thing is clear.
No Union is responsible for the death of manufacturing. The fact is the ONLY contributors enabling the death of our industries is greedy shareholders, globalisation and one sided free trade agreements with half rate nations (and the short sighted narrow minded govcos who served it on a platter).

Assuming however unions were the blame, I question why the industrialised world lasted 100+ yrs. Or rephrased, why it took 100yrs for the "smart corporates" to awaken ??

All this union bashing is pathetic cheap talk, ultimately used when one has no real substantiated argument and looks for an easy out......
Example,
if I question gay marriage - im branded homophobic but not concerned.
if I question non value added immigration im branded a racist but not a nationalist looking out for my countries best interests.
if I question those with differing employment views im branded a union thug, or some type of bludger.
You have your opinions and that's fine, but subconsciously WE ALL take comfort knowing we have rights, standards and conditions that don't allow us nor our children to be undermined or exploited - all fought and won by the union...... how's that for salvation.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Forevermore

And what do they do about that? Come here & leech off the already-established prosperity of this country.

What is to stop them from standing up for what they want in their own country, and fighting for it like what our forefathers did to make this country what it is today?

If you do nothing about it, of course its not going to change.

This sort of comment really screams ignorance. We live in one of the most multicultural countries in the world. Always has been. Who do you think has been setting up this country and it's prosperity since the beginning. Aussies only? No japs, Koreans, poms or Americans? Please.......that borders on rascist.

And People here r carrying on like there are no downsides to unions. Maybe the demise of manufacturing in Australia is a downside..... 'Partly' to blame from unions driving up wages.
And what's stopping them standing up for what's right in their country?....well how's the death penalty suit you......or pillaging and rapping of ur family!

Maybe I'm ignorant, but in the building industry...if you good and you are WORTH your wage, you can get almost any pay you want. If your crap....well....you get what the boss will pay. Should be like that everywhere. Then people wouldn't be so lazy and expect so much for nothing. Work for your living.....something Australians are forgetting!

[MAD]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Maybe I'm ignorant, but in the building industry...if you good and you are WORTH your wage, you can get almost any pay you want. If your crap....well....you get what the boss will pay. Should be like that everywhere. Then people wouldn't be so lazy and expect so much for nothing. Work for your living.....something Australians are forgetting!

Most sense made ever.

[SSD-85]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

This sort of comment really screams ignorance. We live in one of the most multicultural countries in the world. Always has been. Who do you think has been setting up this country and it's prosperity since the beginning. Aussies only? No japs, Koreans, poms or Americans? Please.......that borders on rascist.

I am an indigenous Australian, so don't even go there.

So yes, Im well aware how most Australians immigrated here. And I know they worked bloody hard to get what we have. This is not about racism, not even close. Its about protecting our national interests for people living IN the nation.

And what's stopping them standing up for what's right in their country?....well how's the death penalty suit you......or pillaging and rapping of ur family!

Yeah? And??? "All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

And People here r carrying on like there are no downsides to unions. Maybe the demise of manufacturing in Australia is a downside..... 'Partly' to blame from unions driving up wages.

Perhaps they are, but I feel the influx of imported goods over the years being left unchecked would be a more relevant argument. Since the rationale behind not increasing a wage/entitlements is to remain competitive. Competition is a funny word, because if it were a sport then importers are technically cheating.

Maybe I'm ignorant, but in the building industry...if you good and you are WORTH your wage, you can get almost any pay you want. If your crap....well....you get what the boss will pay. Should be like that everywhere. Then people wouldn't be so lazy and expect so much for nothing. Work for your living.....something Australians are forgetting!

I have no problem with this ideology. Its what made the country what we are today. But skill will only get you so far before the company looks at the bottom line to remain competitive. I come from a Furniture background & have witnessed it first hand. And I didnt blame the company for it. I blamed our crock of a government thinking we can all sing kumbaya holding hands in a happy global village.

[monty man]

1. "Conditions" such as paid holidays,sick leave etc,don't exist when you are self employed!

2. Most Australians nowadays buy the cheap korean sh**box that will last the warranty over the Aussie designed/built car that will last a lifetime.

3. ALL government vehicles SHOULD be Australian made. Why give money to these companies,then buy their competitors products? There should be tax concessions for companies that only use Aussie vehicles for their fleet.

4. I have been waiting all my life for an Aussie designed and built motorcycle.The way our manufacturing is going it will never be :(

[fte50]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

And People here r carrying on like there are no downsides to unions. Maybe the demise of manufacturing in Australia is a downside..... 'Partly' to blame from unions driving up wages.

Maybe I'm ignorant, but in the building industry...if you good and you are WORTH your wage, you can get almost any pay you want. If your crap....well....you get what the boss will pay. Should be like that everywhere. Then people wouldn't be so lazy and expect so much for nothing. Work for your living.....something Australians are forgetting!

Originally Posted by MAD

Most sense made ever.

The implied notion of those belonging to unions being paid beyond their worth is simply utter rubbish. Whilst it might speak true in the building industry perhaps, it surely does not reflect the car industry majors.

Whilst majority of car industry workers belong to unions, and their wages negotiated in EBAs, the direct resulting pay is up to the individual themselves.

Part of the restructuring of wages included the recognition of competencies & skills. It is up to you to better yourself and increase your skills etc or remain stagnant.
*Process workers have at least 4 increment levels of pay depending on skills/competencies
*Trades are structured from level 1 to 6 meaning approx. $26p/h up to $45p/h.
*White collar structured from level 6.5 to level 10.

The reason for what some see as high wages in the industry is due to the above. People bettering themselves - don't think your joe blo tradie is pulling big coin.
The majority of trades at Holden hold an Engineering Diploma/Degree in their respective field relevant to their trade, average approx. 10yrs of post trade schooling/certificates added with on average 20+ yrs trades experience. Considering this as an example, the wages are very relevant.

In contrast lets consider the building industry, where majority of trades have no post trade schooling, are not as flexible in rotation of other duties and average $30+p/h and only work when the sun shines, rarely see shift work and have an RDO every fortnight ..... yep seems steep in comparison hey.

I guess the most sense ever made would be for non industry outsiders to stop pretending they know about certain industry when its clearly evident they don't.

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by monty man

2.Most Australians nowdays buy the cheap korean sh**box that will last the warranty over the Aussie designed/built car that will last a lifetime.

Maybe because the Korean **** box generally has a better warrenty, and lasts just as long if not longer than the Aussie designed/built car.

The whole 'designed for Aussie conditions' is the biggest crock going round...
If they're designed for Aussie conditions how come it seems every other second hand falcon has saggy roof linings, fg's with barely adequate aircon, paint that looks twenty years old on a 5-6 yr old car, crappy diff bushes since 2002, transmission coolers that been failing since Noah floated the ark, rust in cars only a few years old, interior plastics that warp and distort in the sun/heat, seat foams that collapse under the weight of an 'average' Aussie...
And then there's commodore.... And territory.

Next time you driving round count how many of those dodgy early 90s Hyundai excels are still on the road... Built to a price like no other car, yet they're still out there in their thousands.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Forevermore

Perhaps they are, but I feel the influx of imported goods over the years being left unchecked would be a more relevant argument. Since the rationale behind not increasing a wage/entitlements is to remain competitive. Competition is a funny word, because if it were a sport then importers are technically cheating.
.

Bingo - choice words, but wonder how many actually grasp this.