LS3 for final Commodore

[arronm]

Yep. Cause I ain't driving no front wheel drive car

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by burnz

that's 1880's...

people forget that pushrods are the modern tech, DOHC is actually really old school.

If pushrod's are so great, then why has nearly every other car maker in the world switched to DOHC ?

Because they are a more efficient (but complex) design which means better fuel economy and more power from less cubes compared to pushrods.

5.0L Coyote vs 6.2L LS3 is the perfect example of this... just looking at the huge difference in volumetric efficiency between these 2 motors is enough for anyone to feel embarrassed to be driving an LS3 powered car in 2014/15.

And before you say those Corvette's have great mileage with the LS3's, just remember their top gear ratio is moon shot long.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Actually, all joking levity aside- you are right. The cleveland 351 was an absolute cracker.

And yes-we should now savour the last rear wheel drive performance v8 Holdens and Fords.....

Thing is we don't use the Cleve 351 anymore. We've moved on......

[701let]

Originally Posted by Bent8

If pushrod's are so great, then why has nearly every other car maker in the world switched to DOHC ?

Because they are a more efficient (but complex) design which means better fuel economy and more power from less cubes compared to pushrods.

5.0L Coyote vs 6.2L LS3 is the perfect example of this... just looking at the huge difference in volumetric efficiency between these 2 motors is enough for anyone to feel embarrassed to be driving an LS3 powered car in 2014/15.

And before you say those Corvette's have great mileage with the LS3's, just remember their top gear ratio is moon shot long.

I don't think anyone driving a new ls3 powered hsv or any vehicle is embarrassed mate.. They are an excellent platform as is a coyote..

[Blue Roo]

Originally Posted by 701let

I don't think anyone driving a new ls3 powered hsv or any vehicle is embarrassed mate.. They are an excellent platform as is a coyote..

Really?
For all the hype that's surrounds the HSV LS3 saying how Big and Powerful it is. And it still gets beaten in race off the lights by an F6 or a 335.
I to would be embarrassed if I own the car, let alone being in one.
Like the slogan says, " HSV! I Just Ate One."

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Bent8

If pushrod's are so great, then why has nearly every other car maker in the world switched to DOHC ?

Because they are a more efficient (but complex) design which means better fuel economy and more power from less cubes compared to pushrods.

5.0L Coyote vs 6.2L LS3 is the perfect example of this... just looking at the huge difference in volumetric efficiency between these 2 motors is enough for anyone to feel embarrassed to be driving an LS3 powered car in 2014/15.

And before you say those Corvette's have great mileage with the LS3's, just remember their top gear ratio is moon shot long.

more is better right, as the marketing spiel states.. it been beefed up said the camel...

what's the VE at 2000 rpm of both engine's??
you'll probably find any modern 2 valve has the higher VE at those revs..
and most drive at those rpm as your gearbox makes it ideal.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Thing is we don't use the Cleve 351 anymore. We've moved on......

No Ford made a huge mistake and stopped making it.
Im pretty sure if Ford made a modern, alloy, injected version of the Cleveland you would all drool over it.

[XR Martin]

OHV has a much lower COG than a DOHC engine, might not mean much in a sedan (but even an M3 uses a carbon roof that saves a few kg to improve the COG) but does make a difference in something like a Corvette.
The Jag XJR9 engine ran OHC rather than DOHC due to COG benefits.

This is an LS1 vs a 4L Lexus V8. Keep in mind the LS1 engine can be bored/stroked to over 7L...



And this is a Nissan 3.5l V6 vs an LS1

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by MethodX

No Ford made a huge mistake and stopped making it.
Im pretty sure if Ford made a modern, alloy, injected version of the Cleveland you would all drool over it.

Do you think (just for the sake of it) if they'd stuck with the 351 design, we'd have a better package then the 335 we have today?

Edit that......no....the 351 we have today?

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Do you think (just for the sake of it) if they'd stuck with the 351 design, we'd have a better package then the 335 we have today?

Edit that......no....the 351 we have today?

Possibly, you would hear its a proper muscle engine in the Ford tradition.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

OHV has a much lower COG than a DOHC engine, might not mean much in a sedan (but even an M3 uses a carbon roof that saves a few kg to improve the COG) but does make a difference in something like a Corvette.
The Jag XJR9 engine ran OHC rather than DOHC due to COG benefits.

This is an LS1 vs a 4L Lexus V8. Keep in mind the LS1 engine can be bored/stroked to over 7L...

image

And this is a Nissan 3.5l V6 vs an LS1

image

Geez, the 1UZFE makes the LS1 look tiny.

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by burnz

more is better right, as the marketing spiel states.. it been beefed up said the camel...

what's the VE at 2000 rpm of both engine's??
you'll probably find any modern 2 valve has the higher VE at those revs..
and most drive at those rpm as your gearbox makes it ideal.

You may be right about low speed VE and no doubt it's always better having more cubes (with NA applications) but the 5.0 is a masterpiece of engineering achieving 88hp/litre in the Mustang versus 69hp/litre in the Camaro SS.

And you would think the LS3's larger capacity would give it a huge torque advantage but it doesn't... the Camaro SS makes 4% more torque (at higher revs) from an engine that's 20% larger than the 5.0 in the new Mustang... just doesn't add up if you ask me but I figure it's because of the relatively short stroke of the LS3.

Based on horsepower per litre, if the LS3 was a DOHC motor with 7000rpm redline and similar tech to the Coyote 5.0, it would be making right around 540hp and well over 600Nm from the factory... easily taking on the new XR8's.

[arronm]

I just read the latest Wheels mag. Seems when Holden put the LS3 in the redline the car will get even better. Cause at the moment according to wheels the only good thing about the XR8 is the engine.

[SensationFG8]

The SS would need the lsa to be close to the same league...

[PHawk]

To be honest I found the LS3 in my Maloo in the same league as my GT-P 315.

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by PHawk

To be honest I found the LS3 in my Maloo in the same league as my GT-P 315.

Yep, they were very close indeed.. here's a snapshot from 2008.

[arronm]

The graphs really show the difference between the turbo 6 and V8. The peak torque is so high on the 8 compared to the 6. That's probably why when I drove the GT 335 it felt soft. Even though I did mash the throttle all the way to redline in 2nd and 3rd

It doesn't hit,just builds. My VF is the same. And then the SS guys put in cams and make it worse

[SensationFG8]

Wow, that's the 315 5.4 dude...

Perhaps you should check where peak torque is on the 335, so quick to slag off something you have clearly not driven.

[arronm]

Ah true. I could be wrong. Can you post one up from a stock car

[SensationFG8]

Plenty around on the forum or just goto fpv.com.au peak torque from just over 2k rpm.

[shaness8]

Originally Posted by Bent8

Yep, they were very close indeed.. here's a snapshot from 2008.

image

Something doesn't add up with the dyno numbers.

If i recall during testing on the road the LS3 destroyed the FPV

[SensationFG8]

By destroyed do you mean what the 335 does to the ls3 or do you mean it was 1/10th quicker? I recall the 315 and ls3 being pretty well on par.

[arronm]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

Plenty around on the forum or just goto fpv.com.au peak torque from just over 2k rpm.

From the graphs I have seen. 335 coyote 4200-4300 peak torque and that old graph was 4600 so not that much difference.

And seeing the turbo 6 is under 3000. Thats the difference I was feeling

[SensationFG8]

http://www.fpv.com.au/gt_showroom/gt

2200 rpm

[arronm]

Nah dude. Peak is peak. Its a number not a range.

Take a look or post up your dyno graph. It will be written on there.

Peak torque is what you feel when you get shoved back in the seat.

[SensationFG8]

Are you disputing fpv's own data now? They claim peak torque is produced almost all the way through the rev range starting from 2200.

Here's another one that shows you how flat the torque curve actually is.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i7.../fpvtorque.jpg

You seem to be spouting plenty of stuff that clearly shows you have 0 experience or knowledge of the Miami.

[GTP534]

The torque in the Miami is not a
"peak" as such but a "slab".

Slabs usually have flat edges and the s/c 5.0 is flat from around 2200rpm.

[arronm]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

Are you disputing fpv's own data now? They claim peak torque is produced almost all the way through the rev range starting from 2200.

Here's another one that shows you how flat the torque curve actually is.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i7.../fpvtorque.jpg

You seem to be spouting plenty of stuff that clearly shows you have 0 experience or knowledge of the Miami.

True, I dont have much knowledge of the miami.

I cant even read the numbers on that graph

Post up your graph and educate me.

[SensationFG8]

Did you goto the fpv site? It has one on the page...

Numbers in the second one are mostly irrelevant it shows you how flat the torque is. To help with your inability to read the numbers here they are.

600nm throughout the rev range, Max power 328.5 rwkw.

These numbers were read off a tiny little phone screen...

Thank you for also finally admitting you don't know much of these glorious motors, now please stop posting like you do.

[SensationFG8]

Originally Posted by tempted

Just about every car maker has switched to front wheel drive too.... Does that mean front wheel drive is great, or superior to rear wheel drive?

Yes for some applications like economy and cost saving, almost all performance cars are still rwd or awd.