1200 ford workers to be stood down without pay tonight

[RIPGMH]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The real issue is poor gullible employee's been fed a load of tripe by their supposed representitives and led down the garden path to protest against something that may not even be happening or may have extenuating circumstances associated with it...

Spot on, I've only worked in the mining industry for 7 years but I've seen a fair few blokes sacked most with due cause and some without. In that time I have not seen one union rep, make the slighest effort to do anything about it. Once every three years they roll up for EBA negoiations tell us its a fair deal and winge that more of us aren't in a union. People want to see value for their money and the majority of unions just don't offer it.

[SPK-250]

We got next week off at Walkers due to the strike action taken.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by brodfloyd

Hang on everyone, There are far larger problems afoot. Everyone is quick to bemoan the downfall of australian manufacturing and either blame the union movement or liberalist economic policy. But that has really very very little to do with it.


As a country, we have 3 options.

1. All buy only australian made and owned stuff and pay alot more for it and restrict imports. THis is what is known as protectionist. however this was the policy up until the 60's and most see it as a step backwards. Because it works in the short term and is an absolute disaster in the medium to long term.

2. Cut wages, cut conditions, cut living standards, boost exports because our manufactured products will cost less and make big corporations more money. (bad idea, and i dont think anyone less rich than rupert murdoc would think its a good idea) the rich will get richer, and the middle class will soon become the poor.

3. Move on, focus on things that we can do and be profitable, keep our standard of living and have a progressive, modern global economy.

thankyou, and that is why you should all vote for me brodfloyd for president of the world.

The most balanced of all the posts here. Thanks.

[sleekism]

Some people seem to argue very passionately from a business perspective that they are very hard done by and their is minimal profit involved except there is one problem with that........

BUSINESS PROFITS ARE AT RECORD LEVELS!!!

Have a look at the business section of any newspaper and look at the 20billion dollar plus profits that companies such as BHP are raking in.

My conclusion is that being a Ford Forum their is likely no CEO's of multinational corporations so that leaves me with just the conclusion that the people on this forum are either workers or small business owners.

Doesn't anybody here understand?? In this current economic climate the only people who win are the large corporations who's multi-billion dollar profits only help bankers and international investors.

Did anybody see in the paper that James Packer got a multi-million dollar tax credit. Can anybody here tell me how a billionare who makes more an hour than people here make in a year not only didn't pay any tax but was in fact paid millions of dollars by Australian taxpayers????

People here are quick to blame the State Governments but look how many portfolios the States look after compared to the Federal Government?? Let's see the States have roads, education, health, police, water, sewer etc. What do the Feds look after???

The Federal Government in a time of world economic boom has managed to things up. In a commodity boom we are running a trade deficit and their new industrial relations policy has made things more complex and by their own inquiry has shown that people are worse off.

And for those who say that a heavily unionised and regulated economy doesn't work just have a look at Germany. They are heavily regulated but they have one of the most powerful economies in the world. Look at the Netherlands, same deal for them, they are overcrowded nation with no natural resources and they in fact have to build land in the sea yet they have high living standards.
I met a Swiss couple when we were camped at the beach who were travelling around Australia. He worked at a movie theatre, managed to support them and was using his 6 weeks paid annual leave to travel Australia. WTF???

With this new industrial relations policy and open trade all we are doing is engaging in a race to the bottom with Asia. One that we can only win by drastically cutting living standards something that the Corporations would be happy to have.
Talk to some Chinese Workers. Having to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week with the promise that they we will be paid at the end of the year. Talk to the families of the tens of thousands of Chinese workers who die every year in mining disaters where the Company simply bulldozes over the wreckage as it would cost too much money to rescue people. Or the villagers who were thrown off their farms at gunpoint by thugs of the corporations to make way for factories and high rise buildings.

Yes the future is with world trade, but there needs to be intelligent moves taken by the Government to benefit the average Australian. We are rich in resources why do we need to pay workers less? The only way we benefit is through the wages of workers and the few cents per tonne in tax on the resources.

Our universities are a joke. We are the only nation in the industrialised world to cut university funding. We have a shortage of skilled tradesman as well.
Who wants to go to uni for 5 years so you can be a hundred grand in debt or be an apprentice for two hundred bucks a week when the pizza delivery boy makes more??

Invest in education and infastructure. They used to have millions of Cadetships where people could earn a degree while making good money but when Howard was treasurer along came "rationalisation".

Our infastructure is a joke. Greenies whinge that people should take a train or ride a bike but anybody who has lived in Western Sydeney will know what I'm talking about. The ports are bottlenecked, train lines have closed left right and centre, and there is no longer any big projects for the future like the Snowy River etc and when there is finally a project it is bogged down because of the lack of skilled workers due th the Feds skimming on education.

I know I am going to be blasted for this but would we be in this mess if Whitlam had nationalised the mining industry and made university education free??

[ltd]

Interesting points sleekism, but they are slightly aloof.
Firstly, the record profits you are talking about are from the resource sector and the large multinationals. BHP's fortunes turned on the rise of crude oil by over 700%. Parity pricing means that BHP can charge as much as OPEC for oil. The banks are also on a free for all at the moment raking in record profit after record profit. This wasn't the case when they had to compete with the government owned Commonwealth Bank; and who sold that? Hawke/Keating. Same as Qantas.
The small/medium profits are not at record highs, in many instances they are at record lows. Companies like Ford and Holden are evidence of this.

Secondly, it is an irrefutable fact that state governments are awash with cash from the GST, but instead of spending it on vital services their skills pool is so shallow that they blow it out with consultants. In NSW alone, the NSW state government non GST revenue was 13.4 billion in 1995. In 2006 this has gone up to over 57 billion through state levies and taxes. What have they done with the money you ask? Well, the wages bill in the state accounts for 72% if all revenues collected, and the beauracracy has blown out a whopping 380%. Jobs for the boys that the unions won't allow them to dismiss. This follows into the third point about public utilities; where police, education, health and transport come in. In NSW alone we have gone from having state owned utilities to corpratised utilities. Sydney water paid a dividend of just over 3 billion to the state government last year, this used to be money spent on maintenance and new projects. Energy Australia coughed up just under 5 billion, this used to be invested on infrastructure.

The hospitals have been so stacked with state government appointed managerial staff and administrators that are concerned about the spin the government receives more than they are the patients, police are told to go soft on crime for fear of exposing the inadequacies of vacancies in the penal system, the list goes on.
Schools are closed and sold off to greedy developers, tunnels and toll roads are built by tenders which only come about with investment in the labor party. The cross city tunnel builder had to donate $143 million to the NSW labor party as a condition of the tender.

The propoerty sector has been deliberately manipulated by the slow release of land by state governments to ensure property tax income streams remain above 10 billion per year, and somehow everyone blames the feds for the states' incompetence.
Sorry, but you aren't going to find any sympathy from me. Friend of mine does works with steel and has just won the contract for light fittings in a NSW government building which are made from Stainless Steel. The originals from Denmark cost $330,000.00 each and he's won the contract for 62 of them at $280,000.00 each. This is for light fittings mind you. The actual cost of steel and labour is slated to be around the $15,000 mark each. When he originally priced them at 25k a piece he was told that they weren't of the same quality. As a joke he upped it to 280k, and they sent him an order. So the largesse of these egomaniacs is driving the cost of living up, they have a more extravagant lifestyle than any other politician and relish the pomp and ceremony as though they are preseidents.

Finally, free education is a farce. Nowhere else in the developed world is there free tertiary education. Why should someone working in a factory have to pay for the degree of someone wanting to become a lawyer?

The feds aren't perfect, but then again they have done a lot to stimulate Australia and give us the good times that we have ensured the states can get so bloated with endless cash streams.

[sleekism]

Interesting points LTD but you are forgetting a few important points:

1) The Federal Government unfairly distributes the income of the GST with Western Australia and Queensland getting an unfair amount, effectively NSW is paying two billion dollars a year to Queensland.

2) The Howard Government can hardly lay claim to the current booming economy. Remember Howard was treasurer under Fraser and lays claim to that economic disaster.
Howard has merely continued the policies of Keating (remember Keating was voted worlds best treasurer) and the current mineral boom is due to growth in Asia and low interest rates are due to GLOBAL low interest rates so Australian banks are effectively stacked with foreign capital. Furtermore many economists agree that Howards policies have actually further complicated things for business. The current climate is putting a squeeze on both workers and small business and this "housing boom" could end very badly just like it has in America where they are on the verge of recession.

But I do agree with you on the inefficiencies of the state government. Talk to the guys in local government and they will tell you how while their is a despertate shortage of engineers what they have been getting is more and more admin and hr people and amalgamation has simply created more complication. And don't get me started on the RTA they are the most beuracratic, over complex system in existance and are effectively drowning in their own paperwork.

But the Federal Government is even worse in their excesses. See how much they waste in endless beuracrcy and "fact finding missions". See how much they waste in Government advertising which is ALL tax payer money. The Defence Department is also an expensive joke riddled with incompetence and wasted billions and what about the hundreds of millions the Government has given to Indonesia to "plant trees" while Australia is itself facing massive deforestation. And what about the "surplus" which we are paying private companies tens of millions to "manage".

And while I don't agree to free tertiary education as I would hate to see a bludging arts student there needs to be more incentive for students of medicine and engineering.

[ck11]

And for those who say that a heavily unionised and regulated economy doesn't work just have a look at Germany. They are heavily regulated but they have one of the most powerful economies in the world.

You would find that the unions in germany are quite flexible these days and havent got the influence they once had. A lot of automotive manufacturing has moved to countries such as romania where the labour is cheaper. GM, renault etc have all established huge factories in romania where the workforce is educated, cheaper and more flexible than the german counterparts. More and more manufacturing was moving out of germany so the unions have pulled their socks up.

Moreover germany has the advantage of skilled engineering, they arent competing in unskilled manufacturing. For australia to compete on a world scale, workers need to be flexible and open to constantly upskilling and educating themselves. As people have previously said, the australian public buys based on price, not on loyalty. So increasing tariffs etc isnt going to work. If the current employer isnt treating you as you would like then get a trade/education and move to a new job.

I am not just making idealogical statements either, worked in a call center whilst at uni and was treated like crap by my employer, hundreds of students were and still are exploited. Now i had a choice, join a union (and jump around with no outcome because the company can transfer the call center overseas and do it for half the rate) or study harder and move into a new industry. I couldnt blame the company as they were in an immensly competitive market (thanks to people buying based on price only) and our call center was barely breaking even.

The future for australia is in skilled engineering, consultancy, science, finance and management. Which means people need to study harder and study throughout their career. Going to be hard enough as it is, with huge numbers of migrants from india and china with degrees in i.t, accounting etc etc.

Basic/unskilled manufacturing will be in china, india today but as their conditions improve it will move to another developing country and they will face the same problems. The only difference is that those countries have an established class system which provides the motivation for people to work hard. A labourer or low skilled worker is resigned to working for $5 an hour (as opposed to joining a union) and the impetus is on his children to study hard, compete and move up the class system.

[ltd]

Sleekism, the formula for which the GST is divided up was agreed on by all the state premiers in 1999. NSW currently gets 330 million less than it is supposed to get not 2 billion, for the very simple fact that the taxes they agreed on abolishing are still in place today. Taxes like stamp duty on property were agreed to be abolished by Bob Carr in 1999 in order to get the full amount of GST. So who is being fair there?

Secondly, Keating was a self proclaimed "worlds best treasurer", he was never given that title by anyone but himself.

As for federal government advertising, the only advertisiing that we pay for is the government announcements on terror, and general information. The latest round of workchoices ads are payed for by dozens of large companies that have donated to keep the status quo. That is why the union ads against workchoices started a year ago and up until recently there was nothing to counter the blatent lies and hysteria based on supposition. Before I moved to the airlines I used to fly a twin turboprop cessna 441 conquest in VIP configuration out of canberra and to this day, they still get charters from the feds. I have flown Rudd, Beazley, Howard, Gillard and the rest of them; I even have a funny story about Beazley (who is a pretty decent bloke) and a bucket of KFC. The reason they fly with a charter operation is because Howard hates wasting money on jets. I will tell you this though, Rudd is a different man in private - his want of dirt files on people is sickening, and his not knowing the difference between Sydney and Melbourne in relation to where the sea should be is frightening. Out of all of them though, the nicest, most genuinely friendly is by far Howard. He always remembers your name and he is the least demanding of the lot. When his RAAF jet broke down and he had some media with him he organised an emergency charter, and he flew in a cargo plane fitted out with seats; a fairchild metro 23 which had Sydney tower shocked when we informed them who was on board. Believe me, this guy is not an ego maniac. The nastiest is a comp between gillard and kernot. Again though, Beazley is a funny bloke, and he was another one of the nicest guys you could meet.

Anyway, I digress. The difference between state and federal is that the feds get things done, and the states window dress to make it look like they are getting things done ie plasma screens on train stations etc.

As for helping out indonesia, Howard would rather send money to indonesia than have thousands of indonesians turn up on our doorstep illegally, and you have to trust that the motive is in the realm of diplomatic relations. Indonesia has 400 million people, we have 20 million. Indonesian islamics who have said that they want to make Australia an Islamic state are under the watchful eye of the indonesian authorities; we are aiding them to manage themselves and the militants. Cheaper than a war.

I agree that the cost of medical degrees is excessive, but you have to look at the vice chancellors for that too, as they love the dollars from the overseas students who pay up front, do the course and then bugger off.

Finally, the economy has been very well managed by costello, stimulants such as the first home owners grant have turned potential downturns back into booms within a short amount of time, doubling the grant when the reserve bank hit interest rates in 1998 saw housing approvals end their decline, and frankly you can't achieve 4.3% unemployment by fluke. Keatings reforms had unemployment at 11%, and in 1995 everyone got a tax increase. Hardly a reformist wouldn't you say? Particularly when interest rates were 17% for homes and 23% for businesses; hundreds of thousands lost their jobs then. Yes the minerals boom has helped, but in 99-2000 there was an asian economic crisis which the USA felt and we didn't due to responsible fiscal management.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

How many workers actually wanted to strike?? how many had a choice?? its usually the rabid minority who start this stuff.
How in gods name is loosing X numbers of days pay yourself and potentially jeopardising the very survival of the company you work for as well as the flow on effect to the company's they supply (Ford) as well as all the other suppliers to Ford who loose sales because Ford cant use the parts to manufacture cars smart???
I don't care what the problems are at ventura, striking is IMO plain selfish and STUPID :togo: .

Get a clue mate. They have been negotiating with the company for over 6 months. The company wants to sack 230 workers without any redundancy payments for them. Should they just bend over and take it. : The owners of Venture should all be held accountable for ripping workers off. The company bought this on themselves. If they weren't heartless pricks who want to rip workers off they wouldn't be in this mess.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Get a clue mate. They have been negotiating with the company for over 6 months. The company wants to sack 230 workers without any redundancy payments for them. Should they just bend over and take it. : The owners of Venture should all be held accountable for ripping workers off. The company bought this on themselves. If they weren't heartless pricks who want to rip workers off they wouldn't be in this mess.

I think you better get a clue.. what they're striking over hasnt even happened yet, and may not.
Nobody has been ripped off yet, nobody has done anything wrong yet... its all about what they "think" might happen....
Apprarently they'd even agreed to a compromise before the strike...

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Get a clue mate. They have been negotiating with the company for over 6 months. The company wants to sack 230 workers without any redundancy payments for them. Should they just bend over and take it. : The owners of Venture should all be held accountable for ripping workers off. The company bought this on themselves. If they weren't heartless pricks who want to rip workers off they wouldn't be in this mess.

If indeed this happens it then I agree with you entirely about the owners. The only thing missing here though is that it is illegal. If the owners deliberately try to rip the workers off they will be before the ACCC

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I think you better get a clue.. what they're striking over hasnt even happened yet, and may not.
Nobody has been ripped off yet, nobody has done anything wrong yet... its all about what they "think" might happen....
Apprarently they'd even agreed to a compromise before the strike...

The owners have already admitted they want to build a new factory, quite possibly in China. The Union has been willing to compromise on a number of fronts for the past 6 months, but they are willing to give up all the other points if they are gauranteed the entitlements the workers are supposed to get. Venture still won't do that and aren't willing to budge, giving the workers no other option but to strike. All they want is the entitlements they are supposed to be entitled too. But I guess thats not good enough for you is it. :

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by ltd

If indeed this happens it then I agree with you entirely about the owners. The only thing missing here though is that it is illegal. If the owners deliberately try to rip the workers off they will be before the ACCC

Does that work if they open a new factory in China, because that is what is supposed to be happening. Why pay $25 million in entitlements when you can open a new factory in China for $10 million, and then only have to pay a pittance to your workforce. Can they still be prosecuted?

[ltd]

Who said anything about china? Venture have said that they want to move to another factory on the other side of melbourne.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by ltd

Who said anything about china? Venture have said that they want to move to another factory on the other side of melbourne.

There's talk they want to move to China to tap into cheap labour.

[ltd]

I think the point here though is that they are moving across town. Whilst there is obviously talk of them moving to china, you don't really know its source do you?
I would have thought that the union itself may have spread this rumour to garnish more support for their cause. I have searched all over the web for venture plastics and can't for the life of me find any reference for them going to china, except for something that Steve Dargaval the union secretary said

I deal with viscount plastics all the time and they have plants in china; however the bulky goods are made here for the very simple reason that the shipping container would contain mostly air and is therefore inefficient. With plastic bars etc, it would probably be the same. Look at Holdens front and rear bars, they are designed to be nested and thus cut down on wasted space in a shipping container.
Not to mention the fact that china is not reknowned for innovation, rather they just copy stuff. In perspective, Venture are down sizing (very common in manufacturing) and have offered redundancies to 200 employees of their 550 strong workforce. I'd agree with 4Vman, this strike is going to hurt the company, and ultimately the remaining 350 employees as they send the company broke.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The owners have already admitted they want to build a new factory, quite possibly in China. The Union has been willing to compromise on a number of fronts for the past 6 months, but they are willing to give up all the other points if they are gauranteed the entitlements the workers are supposed to get. Venture still won't do that and aren't willing to budge, giving the workers no other option but to strike. All they want is the entitlements they are supposed to be entitled too. But I guess thats not good enough for you is it. :

Make up your mind! what story are you supporting... sounds like you make it up as you go...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Make up your mind! what story are you supporting... sounds like you make it up as you go...

I'm sure i'm getting more info at the coalface than you just pounding the anti union drum. Maybe the China story isn't 100% accurate but its been bought up a few times.

[CAT600]

This comment does not directly target the Venture issue, but Unions me so here goes..

The Union movement is not about employee's any more. They are just a bunch of bludgers that got off the shop floor because they are lazy. The only way they survive is to scare the out of people using the biggest tools they can (in this case, the press).

In the current economic environment, anybody that is worth their salt will have a job already lined up. You cannot get staff these days (let alone good staff) so it stands to reason that if the employers treat workers unfairly or below par on their conditions, they'll walk. 10 years ago at the mining dealership I worked at, if somebody pulled the pin, everybody in the place knew about it and went into a flat spin. Thesedays, it's a daily occurance. There is no loyalty or character in people anymore and employees will walk for 50c/hr or a rough word said.

What needs to happen is people (generally) need to harden up and when they go to work, do their job without worrying about who's getting what or what's happening on the weekend. Young people in general are a disgrace and have no backbone. The world will be a sorry place in the next 20 years or so, as people want the high living standard's but want to do nothing for it.

Here's my three point plan.

1) Keep Howard in power, rolling back workplace reform now would be a diabolical failure.

2) Re-introduce National Service. Make young people do 12-24 months in the armed forces and give them some dicipline and respect. Have you ever talked to small business employees in the States? All you hear is "Yes sir" and "Thankyou sir". What do you get here? whinging, whining and sometimes, no answer at all. Dole bludgers and welfare scammers will become a thing of the past, get them peeling spuds.

3) Get young people into a house immediatley. Get Landcorp and the Federal Government actually working as one, and develop crown land at cost price and further subsidise the cost of building a home. The deal is simple: It's your house, you pay it off, but if you sell it in x/y/z years, we get a/b/c% profit back. Get people locked into life and give them some responsibility. This is a better approach than renting, renting is only fueling some rich persons investment property.

It's not that hard. It just that nobodies got any b@!!s

Daniel

[ltd]

Cat 600, good points mate but one suggestion I'd make is to get those doing national service to go without a large part of their wage in order to pay for the homes being developed. When they finish national service they could then move in to a home they already have equity in.
Then, you wouldn't have the dysfunctional communities out west, you'd have young people trained in respect and discipline which would then allow the young to invest in their future. Furthermore, you would break the cycle of welfare dependent families in lieu of families with a sense of self worth and motivation. To the hand wringers this seems extreme but you only have to look in housing commission areas to see the kind of feral kids bred by 3rd generation welfare families were nobody works.

[sleekism]

Look as a young person I think it would be fair to raise some points.

1) NATIONAL SERVICE DOESN'T WORK!!! My grandfather did national service in the 50's and they were drunk the whole time. You try instructing people who dont want to be there.

2) I had to leave home when I was 18 and it's shite. Me and my missus both work full time and bills just seem to come from everywhere. And there is no incentive to work more as if I work overtime I get more tax, if I work two jobs I get more tax. If I had my choice I would love to live at home.

3) Howards own inquiry has shown people are worse off under workchoices,

4) America is a disciplined nation with a first class society......WTF.....speaks for itself

5)If you dont like Unions then move to Cjina and go work in a sweatshop.

6)So what if employees jump ship for more money?? Companies jump nations for more money they have no loyalty.

7) I would love to own a house but the economic climate is shite. Sure I am making more money than my parents did and interest rates ate low but that means jack shite. My parents didn't need a mortgage they bought a 100 acres outright for 20 grand and my dad was only a labourer.

But I do agree Welfare needs to be fixed. Instead of work for the dole give people are damn job. stop pointless TAFE classes and get some trades going. Centrelink is a overlycomplex and stupid system. the Dole use the money to make jobs.

[nugget378]

I bet all these small business owners going on about unions havent had one organiser walk through the front door.
And to those saying unions do nothing for you,what have you done to make them better?
There are some real BAD unions out there, the AWU for example,but all the ones I consider bad,I consider as "right wing" or bosses unions.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by CAT600

What needs to happen is people (generally) need to harden up and when they go to work, do their job without worrying about who's getting what or what's happening on the weekend. Young people in general are a disgrace and have no backbone. The world will be a sorry place in the next 20 years or so, as people want the high living standard's but want to do nothing for it.

Dead right young people have to harden up and have no backbone.
Our forefathers who fought and died for a way of life would be rolling in their grave at how generations today are being spoon fed all this crap and just taking it,selling out conditions and a way of life that thousands died for, for nothing.
Unions have been subverted by employers with government for years,have been bribed and cajoled and threatened into impotence,then the same "interests" that did this feed us the line through the media (that they have bought and payed for) that unions are corrupt and are not needed in "our new economic climate"
right now is when we need them the most.
If only their were 10,000 young people with backbone to put their boots on and stand beside some of us today,we could take back our birthright..

[ltd]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Look as a young person I think it would be fair to raise some points.

1) NATIONAL SERVICE DOESN'T WORK!!! My grandfather did national service in the 50's and they were drunk the whole time. You try instructing people who dont want to be there.

2) I had to leave home when I was 18 and it's shite. Me and my missus both work full time and bills just seem to come from everywhere. And there is no incentive to work more as if I work overtime I get more tax, if I work two jobs I get more tax. If I had my choice I would love to live at home.

3) Howards own inquiry has shown people are worse off under workchoices,

4) America is a disciplined nation with a first class society......WTF.....speaks for itself

5)If you dont like Unions then move to Cjina and go work in a sweatshop.

6)So what if employees jump ship for more money?? Companies jump nations for more money they have no loyalty.

7) I would love to own a house but the economic climate is shite. Sure I am making more money than my parents did and interest rates ate low but that means jack shite. My parents didn't need a mortgage they bought a 100 acres outright for 20 grand and my dad was only a labourer.

But I do agree Welfare needs to be fixed. Instead of work for the dole give people are damn job. stop pointless TAFE classes and get some trades going. Centrelink is a overlycomplex and stupid system. the Dole use the money to make jobs.

Sleekism,

1/ National service does work. All the people I know who did national service say it was the difference between being a criminal and man. Most of those guys went on to become successful leaders in business and politics. If your grandfather was drunk all the time, he might have a problem with alcohol.

2/ Welcome to the real world. It aint all beer and skittles. Just like you, businesses face the same problems with taxes and multiple bills.

3/ Rubbish

4/ America does not have national service, which is what was discussed. America does have however police and judges who represent the people as opposed to representing criminals. There is a greater sense of respect as opposed to the anarchy which is most of Australia.

5/ Why should I? Unions only represent 17.5% of the workforce, the majority of 82.5% should have more say than the unionised workforce. Why don't you go to communist china?

6/ The only problem here is employees have become complacent, there is so much more job security now compared to the early 90's when there were mass sackings as the economy was in the toilet.

7/ The economy is largely doing well. The fact that we have high house prices has more to do with the states and their lack of releasing land to manipulate the median price. The reason they do this? They levy their taxes as a percentile and ergo 3% of 1 million is much better than 3% of 100,000.

We are agreed on the welfare system, it actually consumes 62% of the federal government revenue.

Nugget, I have experienced unions who came into my fathers workplace and forced everyone out as one employee didn't want to join. Then they stopped the supply of material until he joined. In the end, even offering to pay his union fees on his behalf we had to sack him because it all up cost us over 1.4 million dollars. What did the union do for this guy? Nothing. What did the IRC do for him? Nothing. The south will rise again before you bring back your birthrite (WTF?)

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by ltd

Nugget, I have experienced unions who came into my fathers workplace and forced everyone out as one employee didn't want to join. Then they stopped the supply of material until he joined. In the end, even offering to pay his union fees on his behalf we had to sack him because it all up cost us over 1.4 million dollars. What did the union do for this guy? Nothing. What did the IRC do for him? Nothing. The south will rise again before you bring back your birthrite (WTF?)

Sounds a little loony dont it,just as your national service plans sound loony to others,come on I mean get a grip,since when does someone need national service to become anything,take a young fella and get him digging ditches and mould a man,is that whats supposed to happen?

[ltd]

Originally Posted by nugget378

Sounds a little loony dont it,just as your national service plans sound loony to others,come on I mean get a grip,since when does someone need national service to become anything,take a young fella and get him digging ditches and mould a man,is that whats supposed to happen?

No more loony than your claiming of a birthright through empowering the unions.
As someone who has a little bit of knowledge in the employment of people as well as discipline sufficient to earn a masters as well as an ATPL, I think my position is clear. National service does teach people discipline and self-respect. They don’t dig ditches or drill all day long but they are encouraged to work in a team-building environment and they are also taught self-respect whilst respecting others. Heaven forfend, they are even taught to respect their seniors and the focus on them being more important than anyone else is erased.
You obviously have overlooked everyone else’s contributions for the sake of weighing in to a debate late in the piece and pushing some ridiculously outdated ideology of bosses only there to screw workers creating a vacuum necessitating unions. Unions don’t hold all the answers and frankly, if you ever got the literature of their ill-conceived Manusafe entitlements scheme you too would be worried. That is of course of you could put down the red coloured glasses to look past the union doctrine of extreme paranoia.

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by ltd

Cat 600, good points mate but one suggestion I'd make is to get those doing national service to go without a large part of their wage in order to pay for the homes being developed. When they finish national service they could then move in to a home they already have equity in.
Then, you wouldn't have the dysfunctional communities out west, you'd have young people trained in respect and discipline which would then allow the young to invest in their future. Furthermore, you would break the cycle of welfare dependent families in lieu of families with a sense of self worth and motivation. To the hand wringers this seems extreme but you only have to look in housing commission areas to see the kind of feral kids bred by 3rd generation welfare families were nobody works.

Could not agree more with your ideas of forced equity. Young peoples lack of respect and commitment will be the undoing of the western world.

Daniel

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by nugget378

I bet all these small business owners going on about unions havent had one organiser walk through the front door.
And to those saying unions do nothing for you,what have you done to make them better?
There are some real BAD unions out there, the AWU for example,but all the ones I consider bad,I consider as "right wing" or bosses unions.

We had TWU through us. "Suggested" everyone join including operations staff and owners. Then when we had a dispute with one employee, we tried to get them to represent us as their members, but they said they would not, and then they rang the former employee and represented them!. Turned out they were wrong once WE called Worksafe in to discuss issue, and we havent seen them in the door since. Hence, I have no respect.

Daniel

[sleekism]

Yes western society is in decay but I would attribute it more to the moral decay of an unashamed consumer based capitalist society rather than the fault of youth. The leaders of th world want a dumb population whos goal is to work and consume. The traditional worship of know ledge has been replaced by a worship of commercialism and will be the undoing of western civilisation. The situation the United States is in now is parallel to what the Roman Empire was in before it collapsed.

Not much has changed:

The Roman Empire faced massive civil unrest and moral degradation.

The Roman Empire faced barbarians on all fronts and an overstretched empire and subsequently began to contract out it's defence to mercenaries (much like the U.S.
with corporations.)

The Roman Empire had an addiction to Chinese products (silk) and the country was on the verge of bankruptcy as the Chinese didn't want Roman products only Gold.

Though admittedly moral decline is nothing new and cyclic in nature just remember the decay of the 20's and also in 16th century Venice it was uheard of a woman not to have both a husband and a few lovers. Even medieval popes engaged in wild orgies.

Sorry to get off track but it seems odd how conservatism and consumerism can go hand in hand. My main concern is that Australia is becoming a "stupid" country just look at the dedication and inteligence of German and Japanese students and you will no what mean (German eschange students can write and spell English better than most Australian)

And yes I do realise the irony that my post is full of spellig errors but Im tired

[ltd]

Sleekism, don't believe a word of it. German and Japanese aren't as smart as people think, although I will grant that it is highly probable that people are becoming dumber in Australia. I had a secretary that couldn't spell, and the cryptic messages of people calling was the most infuriating thing since the ATO. Then when I asked her to get people to spell their names if she didn't know how to spell it, I overheard her on the phone saying; "P E T E R". Mind you she was an avid "Big Brother" fan, and is also into all that reality TV shite.

Personally, I think the youth deserve a lot of the blame for societies ills, they have gotten to working age and are semi-illiterate. They aren't curious enough to enquire as to how things work or why things are done that way, they seem to be preoccupied with everything but the task at hand. Look at the flight schools for example. Most of them have closed because it's all too hard for the youth of today. To get anywhere near a high paying job you have to take your lumps in aviation, typically by working for low pay instructing students in order to gain hours, then working at a freight company late at night to gain the 2000 odd hours you need of twin turbine time to be considered for an airline. As a result, we are now facing a pilot shortage. Now,a 747 captain can earn 350K plus per year thanks to supply and demand.

The biggest problem is that the youth want the benefits of their parents now; they want the car now, the property, the clothes etc. And why? Because nobody has ever told them anything other than "You're special, nobody is better than you", no one has ever given them a smack for being bad, no one has ever told them "No". Resultantly, we have a generation of idiots that are highly emotional with a sense of self importance never seen before.

If you are 50, worked hard all your life to get where you are and you have had some 18-20 year old twit tell you that you should retire so they can have your job, then you know what I'm talking about. Honest to God, this happens every day. Literally thousands of bosses are incredulously looking at ways to combat this nefarious attitude, as they too have been tapped on the shoulder and told by someone; "You've had your chance earning good money, now it's my turn". This usually gets the response of, "Do you even understand what the company does, do you honestly think you know what your doing?" "can't be too hard, I'll give it a go". Great, no experience, no qualifications; we'll just give you the company because your teacher told you that you're special.

I know first hand that a lot of this type of attitude develops in the schools (where the teachers union have dictated syllabi to encourage socialist indoctrination of youth, as well as forcing crap like the stolen generation into young minds who later blame us), as well as in the home were parents pay little interest in their children. I also suspect that due to laws prohibiting smacking ones' child we have only emboldened this egocentric attitude. Now, this is not isolated to Australia, this happens all around the world every day.
This is where I believe we are having problems sleekism, and not with capitalism.