April 2015 vfacts - Commodore 6th, Falcon nowhere

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Express

It must be a BMW thing though honestly there are others.

I’m a V8 man through and through, they are the only type of cars I’m really interested in but my wife’s 135i twin turbo 3 litre in-line 6 is a real hoot to drive.

It's our main long distance hauler and I love the feel of it.

And it’ll scare the pants off the V8’s in the twisties and isn’t shy to stretch its legs in the straights.

When that second turbo cuts in, ye-ha.





As far as ABS goes, I'm from the old school world and seen what a brake lockup can do.

Give me all the active and passive safety there is. Anything that may help save my family's lives is a no brainer for me.

Sure ! their are, but I was talking in general run of the mill cars over all.

ABS are great for hopeless drivers, I am sure of that, but I don't like them much as they are hopeless shocking not to mention danger on dirt roads, I would like to have a switch so that I can turn it off.
you can't beat ABS on wet roads especialy at high speeds.
Hitting ABS at Low speeds of 40 km/h with ABS is slower to stop.
You can swerve and brake without ABS hard and fast.
I am in the top 10% as far as being able to drive with the best of them you know, not just some yobbo amateur.

As for the VB commodore RTS I was on about, it was the best handling car at the time and that was the focus or safety at the time, but you had to know how to drive to make it work and power of a V8 helped make it so much better because you could use the rear wheels to steer the car with total confidence at any speed, it was like a bird dog.
RTS in the VC-H-K-L-N-P-R-S commodores were rubbish because most Aussies do not have the capacity to be able to drive at that level of competence, so they introduced understeer so that fools would comprehend to back off the gas.
With the VB you could come into a corner and hit the gas and steer with the rear with total confidence.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Kieron

It's been going on for years, the Japanese in the 60's/70's where coming out with standard heaters, push button radios, bucket seats/floor shift as standard and that forced the big 3 here to follow suit.



RTS was nothing more than marketing, just had different suspension settings.



I'd say most drivers are ok but in a panic situation, will simply lean on the brakes hard as a normal reaction, therefore ABS is of benefit as is stability control and air bags as a supplementary device. A good driver (very subjective) will at the very least, be helped by that not so good drivers ABS functioning in an accident with them.



There are heaps of good 4/6 cylinder cars and are extremely good transport!! Then there are some great ones too, exactly the same applies to V8's.

Good Transport you say, yes transport but boring transport.

I was talking about cars that inspire you. something you can't wait to get behind the wheel, not something your forced to have to drive that you know is just baloney.

[Kieron]

RTS was just a badge on the dashboard of the VB Commodore (and the Torana/Gemini/Kingswood). VB was definitely a cut above the XC Falcon/Kingswood and Valiant at the time, one thing I never liked about the Commodores handling was at higher speeds, you get a snap oversteer due to the inherent design of the Panhard rod, not that noticable to the average punter though.

I think you will find that the vast majority of cars have deliberate understeer and have done forever. Cars with oversteer standard tend to pop up as frightening handlers.

Boring is subjective, I suspect if you took a manual Focus through a series of twisting roads then did the same in my FG XR8, you'd find the XR8 a handful and the Focus more enjoyable.

Personally, I love my manual FG XR8 purely for it's V8 and manual gearbox and think if it was a V8 auto, it would be far less inspiring. I also have a turbo diesel Grand Cherokee auto and for different reasons, I look forwards to driving it. My next car will likely be a new 'Stang (i've owned classic 'Stangs too) and although my heart says V8, I may look at the turbo 4 potter too, seems it's quite an inspiring drive in it's own right.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Kieron

RTS was just a badge on the dashboard of the VB Commodore (and the Torana/Gemini/Kingswood). VB was definitely a cut above the XC Falcon/Kingswood and Valiant at the time, one thing I never liked about the Commodores handling was at higher speeds, you get a snap oversteer due to the inherent design of the Panhard rod, not that noticable to the average punter though.

I think you will find that the vast majority of cars have deliberate understeer and have done forever. Cars with oversteer standard tend to pop up as frightening handlers.

Boring is subjective, I suspect if you took a manual Focus through a series of twisting roads then did the same in my FG XR8, you'd find the XR8 a handful and the Focus more enjoyable.

Personally, I love my manual FG XR8 purely for it's V8 and manual gearbox and think if it was a V8 auto, it would be far less inspiring. I also have a turbo diesel Grand Cherokee auto and for different reasons, I look forwards to driving it. My next car will likely be a new 'Stang (i've owned classic 'Stangs too) and although my heart says V8, I may look at the turbo 4 potter too, seems it's quite an inspiring drive in it's own right.

No RTS was not just a badge at all, you should read about Peter Hannenberger and what he was all on about with it at the time.

The panhard rod has nothing at to do with oversteer.
Unless you have driven a car that is totally controllable, you do not need understeer at all, understeer is only for fools, and there is oversteer and then their is oversteer, some will be uncontrollable and some can be totally controllable.
I bought a new VS ute when they first came out and boy that was just about the worst understeering dog I had come across and the worse oversteer dog ever, I could not believe it.
I had a XG falcon longreach at the time as well and it never understeered.
I got the VS to handle but it cost me $ but it was to do with the geometry set up mainly and it was only a V6 but then I got a V8 VS ute and that was much better due to the torque on tap to control it, without having to flog the guts out of the V6 and stabbing the clutch to control the rear end.

Small cars for tight sharp low speed stuff is where they can shine. I had a worked Escort RS2000 once, dirt back roads heaven to drive, but high speed highway driving they are rubbish.

I have never driven a auto that I liked, but for a XB 351 GS ute with C4 auto that was better than the XB GT manual to drive with it's clunk clunk shifting that near broke ya hand fanging that about.

You can't truly beat a good V8 you know, as when does it come across you that you think, gee I wish I really had a 6 or 4.

[MrZ]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

The shift began in late '03 but definitely occurred by late '04 - guess which launch of radical (RWD and AWD, 5 or 7 seat) new SUV happened in that time? It was the Territory!

Huh? The shift to SUVs began in 1996, but the biggest shift occurred during the last 5 years. From 2009-2012, SUV market share increased around 8% (compared to only 5% from 1996-1999).

From 2002-2003, there was 0% growth in SUVs, and from 2003-2005, only 1.3% growth (from the Territory, no doubt). So the two big "shifts" really occurred in the late 90s, and then again in the late 2000s (to a larger degree).

[russellw]

Originally Posted by Kieron

RTS was just a badge on the dashboard of the VB Commodore (and the Torana/Gemini/Kingswood).

You clearly never drove pre and post RTS full sized Holden sedans of the 70's but I did and it made an astounding difference to the H series cars when it landed with HZ.

Originally Posted by MrZ

Fair enough, but why don't you count commercial vehicles?

Because the focus of the Top 20 is on passenger vehicles and while I realise that the LC 4x4's are starting to replace passenger cars for some people (as witnessed by the private sales in that segment) they are still light commercial by definition.

Cheers
Russ

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by MrZ

Huh? The shift to SUVs began in 1996, but the biggest shift occurred during the last 5 years. From 2009-2012, SUV market share increased around 8% (compared to only 5% from 1996-1999).

From 2002-2003, there was 0% growth in SUVs, and from 2003-2005, only 1.3% growth (from the Territory, no doubt). So the two big "shifts" really occurred in the late 90s, and then again in the late 2000s (to a larger degree).

I should clarify that Mr Z: I was looking at the chart Russell posted of sales, and only noting the time at which SUV sales overtook passenger car sales. It happens to coincide with the Territory launch. You are correct with when it started, and its recent acceleration.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by galaxy xr8

I’d love to see two vehicles side by side, one with ABS and the other without, doing the same speed, with you being in the one without....

Here you go:


http://weknowmemes.com/2011/12/abs-on-abs-off/

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by russellw

You clearly never drove pre and post RTS full sized Holden sedans of the 70's but I did and it made an astounding difference to the H series cars when it landed with HZ.

Completely agree with this, the difference was night and day. And there was a lot to it, as well. German GM engineer Hannenberger reworked the suspension, one journo has described it as 'rose jointing it' which might be a bit too far, but the engineers changed

"...pick up points of the front suspension upper link have been shifted so tha tthe outer wheel stands up straight in corners; the suspension bushes have been changed to be more stable under cornering stresses; front and rear bars fitted, with the rear bar now mounted onto the axle and connected to the body frame by short links; stiffer springs and bigger shock absorbers made standard; and six inch [radial] rims fitted throughout the range."

Motor Dec 1977 and Modern Motor July 1978 have good reviews of the major changes done, and how the auto landscape changed when GM did this,

So it was much more than a badge on a dash, it was the 'ABS' safety feature of its day.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Motor Dec 1977 and Modern Motor July 1978 have good reviews of the major changes done, and how the auto landscape changed when GM did this,
.

It was the P76 that changed the auto landscape with the Australian big cars - the Holden's changes were a catch-up reaction to this. To understand that, you'd have to have driven P76, Holden and Falcon at the time. They were chalk and cheese. P76 lifted dynamics and handling to European levels.

Holden's PR department would of course claim that Holden was responsible for all innovations in Australian cars. History is written by the victors.

Territory has a similar place among popular SUVs, but wait and see Toyota claim credit for all the advances in years to come.

[Sprintey]

Cheers for that info New2Ford, honestly I don't know too much about the P76 - what it was and why it was withdrawn from sale so early on is probably the subject of an entirely new thread. Being young when these were very secondhand, I just didn't even see one on the road. Joe Kenright has done a good article on it over on the UniqueCars site IIRC.

Holden with the HQ model went George Roberts' way and gave it a 'Cadillac ride', which translated into float and crazy understeer - a little bit of Detroit bleh for Aussies. Also infected the LH Torana, and RTS was the shock response to this, first with the 'Sunbird', then the rest of the range. For this reason alone they shouldn't claim they invented handling then; the Falcon was a better road car for much of the 70's (advertising 'the Great Australian Road Car').

Agree about the Territory. It seems to be selling strongly (given new competition and across the total Ford volume) and I'd hazard the handling strengths certainly help it month after month.

[Joe5619]

Are we seriously having a debate in the year 2015 about weather ABS is good or not? This whole topic makes me mad... People, lose the tickets, even the best driver in the world can benefit from ABS. All these people saying, they can release the break & control the slide. News flesh, ABS can do this process for you much quicker & better & might just be the difference between you being alive or dead!!

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Are we seriously having a debate in the year 2015 about weather ABS is good or not? This whole topic makes me mad... People, lose the tickets, even the best driver in the world can benefit from ABS. All these people saying, they can release the break & control the slide. News flesh, ABS can do this process for you much quicker & better & might just be the difference between you being alive or dead!!

Yes we are.

There is ABS other ABS types some are better than others.
The average joe would not have an understanding of it in depth because they don't use the ABS constantly to know the difference.
I have yes to see an ABS that's better on a loose gravel type of dirt road, as it scares the hell out of you to have that amount of lack of control and the lack of stoping power.

Do the V8 racing have ABS ? no they don't and why is that, now if it was better why don't they have it ?

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by castellan

Do the V8 racing have ABS ? no they don't and why is that, now if it was better why don't they have it ?

V8's no, but there are many series around the word & Australia that use ABS in race cars.


But we are going really, really off topic here!!

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by russellw

You clearly never drove pre and post RTS full sized Holden sedans of the 70's but I did and it made an astounding difference to the H series cars when it landed with HZ.

I did drive pre post HX/HZ Kingswoods and i'm quite aware it made a difference. However my original point was it was marketing NOT new technology like ABS. It was simply retuning the suspension, exactly like what Fords catch-up XC 1/2 was.

If you want new technology for that era in Aussie cars, look at the XD's electronic speedo/plastic fuel tank/plastic bumpers.

We also had a 6 pot P76, an XB Falcon and an XC 1/2 in the late 70's and as mentioned in a post above, the P76 was the car that raised the bar handling wise, it was noticeably better.

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by castellan

No RTS was not just a badge at all, you should read about Peter Hannenberger and what he was all on about with it at the time.

I was being facetious but the point is, it is not new technology like ABS, it's an evolution.

The panhard rod has nothing at to do with oversteer.

Yes it does, google it, rear steer due to the rods introducing lateral movement in the rear axle and it's the reason why a watts link is superior. I had a VC Commodore company car in the 80's, then a VK followed by a VL, all would oversteer when pushed, the VL was the worst. Even drove a retired Commodore Cup car about 10 years ago and the trick was to anticipate the oversteer and 'drive thru it'.

Unless you have driven a car that is totally controllable, you do not need understeer at all, understeer is only for fools, and there is oversteer and then their is oversteer, some will be uncontrollable and some can be totally controllable.

Last car I drove that I would consider totally controllable was a Formula Ford but even then, on the limits it would snap in an instant. The difference between a good handling (race) car and a road car is the latter will be more gradual, typically due to understeer built in.

I bought a new VS ute when they first came out and boy that was just about the worst understeering dog I had come across and the worse oversteer dog ever, I could not believe it.
I had a XG falcon longreach at the time as well and it never understeered.
I got the VS to handle but it cost me $ but it was to do with the geometry set up mainly and it was only a V6 but then I got a V8 VS ute and that was much better due to the torque on tap to control it, without having to flog the guts out of the V6 and stabbing the clutch to control the rear end.

Small cars for tight sharp low speed stuff is where they can shine. I had a worked Escort RS2000 once, dirt back roads heaven to drive, but high speed highway driving they are rubbish.

Old MKII Escorts with the 2 litre was a fantastic little car to drive. A friend in the early 80's had one with a worked engine but stock suspension (not RS2000) and it would scare V8's in a straight line and kil then in the bends but agreed, it wouldn't be a highway cruiser.

I have never driven a auto that I liked, but for a XB 351 GS ute with C4 auto that was better than the XB GT manual to drive with it's clunk clunk shifting that near broke ya hand fanging that about.

You can't truly beat a good V8 you know, as when does it come across you that you think, gee I wish I really had a 6 or 4.

I'm with you mate, there's just that 'something' about a V8 that is hard to put a finger on that draws me to them but objectively, it's not hard to beat a V8, i'm sure the XR6T/F6 guys will agree

[prydey]

Originally Posted by castellan

The average joe would not have an understanding of it in depth because they don't use the ABS constantly to know the difference.

if you ask me, someone who is driving in such a manner that abs is constantly being called upon, either can't drive, or is driving like a moron.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by castellan

Do the V8 racing have ABS ? no they don't and why is that, now if it was better why don't they have it ?

What?
You want to compare a controlled formula racing where cars are specially prepared for racing at above road speeds, on tracks that are in far better condition than 90% of roads out there and for drivers that are in the top 1%, with cars that run wet weather tyres, are not specifically built for racing around corners at speed, on pretty rubbish unmaintained roads and driven by average at best drivers?

Chalk and cheese...

[prydey]

Originally Posted by castellan

Do the V8 racing have ABS ? no they don't and why is that, now if it was better why don't they have it ?

most formula's that are running purpose built race cars have regulations regarding driving aids, and most of them are banned.

GT3 type categories do run ABS, traction control and various other systems. they must be rubbish drivers i guess.

[SumoDog68]

Deleted

[naddis01]

yawn. Enough with the ABS.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by prydey

if you ask me, someone who is driving in such a manner that abs is constantly being called upon, either can't drive, or is driving like a moron.

You are missing the point, I was making.
The point is, unless you know and have dealt with the system in depth you may understand it's ability's much more than just someone who never has endeavoured such a task.

It has noting to do with driving like a moron at all, but knowledge is not ignorance.

Before I had ABS I would finely adjust my rear proportioning valving as this helped braking performance.
Just as one would look to hot up the performance of an engine, so too one can look to the total braking system in the same light. sadly most don't give it much thought.
Even talking to so called brake shop people I have found myself talking to just a clown as it is so with engine performance shops or suspension shops.
The problem is they are not interested or have a lack of knowledge.
Sure they are ok with your Grand mothers car and such.

Just like tuning the old carby cars of days gone by, most mechanics were hopeless to get them tuned spot on, for that you had to find someone who tuned raced cars, because only they mainly knew what was best and because they had an interest in such things.
The average mechanic did not want to know about it and could not care less about such things.

And that's just the way it goes.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Kieron

I was being facetious but the point is, it is not new technology like ABS, it's an evolution.



Yes it does, google it, rear steer due to the rods introducing lateral movement in the rear axle and it's the reason why a watts link is superior. I had a VC Commodore company car in the 80's, then a VK followed by a VL, all would oversteer when pushed, the VL was the worst. Even drove a retired Commodore Cup car about 10 years ago and the trick was to anticipate the oversteer and 'drive thru it'.



Last car I drove that I would consider totally controllable was a Formula Ford but even then, on the limits it would snap in an instant. The difference between a good handling (race) car and a road car is the latter will be more gradual, typically due to understeer built in.



Old MKII Escorts with the 2 litre was a fantastic little car to drive. A friend in the early 80's had one with a worked engine but stock suspension (not RS2000) and it would scare V8's in a straight line and kil then in the bends but agreed, it wouldn't be a highway cruiser.



I'm with you mate, there's just that 'something' about a V8 that is hard to put a finger on that draws me to them but objectively, it's not hard to beat a V8, i'm sure the XR6T/F6 guys will agree

As for the panhard rod and oversteer, it's mainly got to do with balance and the front set up geometry.
The VB would be totally controllable oversteer, it was magic.
The VL Turbo I drove was just rubbish dog handling as they came out.

My dads 1971 LTD Galaxie had a panhard rod rear and I would fang that thing and it was very neutral handling and great to toss sliding about into dirt roads but for the fact it was big and heavy.
Watts link is better, yes.

[Express]

I’m starting to wonder if ABS has been added to vehicles for drivers who are neither professional racers or set their cars up as dedicated track weapons.

I may be wrong but there is a chance it’s there to help save us mere mortals.

[Spammy]

Originally Posted by Express

I’m starting to wonder if ABS has been added to vehicles for drivers who are neither professional racers or set their cars up as dedicated track weapons.

I may be wrong but there is a chance it’s there to help save us mere mortals.

And why was ABS banned from Formula 1? Was it because the F1 drivers all have lower driving skills than the the keyboard warriors on this site and the governing body wanted to embarrass them on the world stage.

I can see why Ford and Falcons are heading down the toilet in this country...the average ford buyer has just climbed out of the swamp and but is some way off learning to walk upright.

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by castellan

As for the panhard rod and oversteer, it's mainly got to do with balance and the front set up geometry.
The VB would be totally controllable oversteer, it was magic.
The VL Turbo I drove was just rubbish dog handling as they came out.

To be honest, the VC I had was a wagon and the old carb blue motor/Traumatic didn't have enough grunt to get of its own way and was definitely better than the VL.

A Panhard rod travels thru an arc, minimising that arc reduces the lateral axle movement and therefore roll oversteer. It's also dependant on which side of the car it's mounted, from memory high speed right handers affected the Commodore but not high speed left handers. Driving the Commodore Cup car around the predominantly right hand Wanneroo Raceway (short track) really highlighted it.

My dads 1971 LTD Galaxie had a panhard rod rear and I would fang that thing and it was very neutral handling and great to toss sliding about into dirt roads but for the fact it was big and heavy.
Watts link is better, yes.

Lovely car, enough said

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by castellan

Yes we are.

There is ABS other ABS types some are better than others.
The average joe would not have an understanding of it in depth because they don't use the ABS constantly to know the difference.
I have yes to see an ABS that's better on a loose gravel type of dirt road, as it scares the hell out of you to have that amount of lack of control and the lack of stoping power.

Do the V8 racing have ABS ? no they don't and why is that, now if it was better why don't they have it ?

I come from a background of driving a rally car- and yes, in dirt I would prefer no ABS, good to dig the tyres in gravel when punching hard on gravel roads- and abs is no good for that style of driving.

But come on- driving a good modern car with abs on the road, wet etc. You cannot beat abs, in the real world.

A human confronted with a real emergency, if a good driver ,will react fast, hit the anchors, invariably too hard and lock up, and if a good driver, react fast, release the brakes and then re-apply. ( In a sense, an organic slow abs system).

Even driving in dry nowadays in a modern sorted abs car, and going into corners too hard, abs wonderfully modulates wash off of speed while enabling total steering control- drove an FGX XR8 really hard into corners and under heavy braking with abs modulation while turning- the abs wonderfully modulates retraction of speed while steering in total control- almost boring- ford have got this abs system working wonderfully on the FGX XR8.

I remember years ago going very hard into a tight bend at the edge of adhesion in an old GT Mk 11 1.6 rally car with the saide draft webbers, no brake assistance-all brake pressure from my right foot. A muppet swung into my lane without looking, leaving me nowhere to go- hit the anchors, resulting in lockup, while also at that point sliding sideways through the corner. Then quick releasing, re applying brakes, while working the sideways slide, and slid around the corner and threaded a gap. This 1 incident was probably the greatest bit of driving I have ever done- or not- (and I still remember it as a burning memory) and gave me a huge rush controlling the slide and lockup at the same time while threading a gap while all that was happening.

But truthfully had I been in a car with good abs it would have been far less dramatically controlled, but I would not have had the adrenalin rush and ultimate satisfaction of controlling a piece of machinery at speed that was a handful.


I like to think I am a good driver, I turn traction control off to have fun in wet, 4 wheel drifting etc in appropriate locations, but good sorted abs on tarmac is a no brainer...enables you to drive even faster.

One of reasons why abs is probably not allowed in some racing formulas is that it is fun to see racers pushing and locking up and getting all over the place but fighting the lockup in a corner- abs takes away this drama and on the roads that's a good thing, but that spectacle is great on the track.

[Spammy]

I have a CAMS Circuit Lic, have done any number of race schools, have completed in State Rounds of open wheeler championships etc etc.

But go back a couple of years when a small dark-skinned kid ran out from between two parked cars, on a wet night, on a busy 60k/h road..

Q: guess what saved his life?

A: Not my superior driving skillls.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by Kieron

I did drive pre post HX/HZ Kingswoods and i'm quite aware it made a difference. However my original point was it was marketing NOT new technology like ABS. It was simply retuning the suspension, exactly like what Fords catch-up XC 1/2 was.

If you want new technology for that era in Aussie cars, look at the XD's electronic speedo/plastic fuel tank/plastic bumpers.

We also had a 6 pot P76, an XB Falcon and an XC 1/2 in the late 70's and as mentioned in a post above, the P76 was the car that raised the bar handling wise, it was noticeably better.

That wasn't how it read but we'll provide benefit of the doubt. I had two P76's and apart from the dubious build quality they did lift the bar in any number of areas ranging from the 2.6L OHC I6 that matched the traditional (larger capacity) sixes for performance and killed them for smoothness to the rack and pinion steering that went a long way toward the handling.

Cheers
Russ

[castellan]

Originally Posted by asagaai

I come from a background of driving a rally car- and yes, in dirt I would prefer no ABS, good to dig the tyres in gravel when punching hard on gravel roads- and abs is no good for that style of driving.

But come on- driving a good modern car with abs on the road, wet etc. You cannot beat abs, in the real world.

A human confronted with a real emergency, if a good driver ,will react fast, hit the anchors, invariably too hard and lock up, and if a good driver, react fast, release the brakes and then re-apply. ( In a sense, an organic slow abs system).

Even driving in dry nowadays in a modern sorted abs car, and going into corners too hard, abs wonderfully modulates wash off of speed while enabling total steering control- drove an FGX XR8 really hard into corners and under heavy braking with abs modulation while turning- the abs wonderfully modulates retraction of speed while steering in total control- almost boring- ford have got this abs system working wonderfully on the FGX XR8.

I remember years ago going very hard into a tight bend at the edge of adhesion in an old GT Mk 11 1.6 rally car with the saide draft webbers, no brake assistance-all brake pressure from my right foot. A muppet swung into my lane without looking, leaving me nowhere to go- hit the anchors, resulting in lockup, while also at that point sliding sideways through the corner. Then quick releasing, re applying brakes, while working the sideways slide, and slid around the corner and threaded a gap. This 1 incident was probably the greatest bit of driving I have ever done- or not- (and I still remember it as a burning memory) and gave me a huge rush controlling the slide and lockup at the same time while threading a gap while all that was happening.

But truthfully had I been in a car with good abs it would have been far less dramatically controlled, but I would not have had the adrenalin rush and ultimate satisfaction of controlling a piece of machinery at speed that was a handful.


I like to think I am a good driver, I turn traction control off to have fun in wet, 4 wheel drifting etc in appropriate locations, but good sorted abs on tarmac is a no brainer...enables you to drive even faster.

One of reasons why abs is probably not allowed in some racing formulas is that it is fun to see racers pushing and locking up and getting all over the place but fighting the lockup in a corner- abs takes away this drama and on the roads that's a good thing, but that spectacle is great on the track.

I am not bagging ABS but just pointing out the facts.
A mate of mine was just about run over by an ABS Jeep on a dirt road, the dude could not control it because of the ABS. I seen it all happening and could see how the ABS made this loose control over what he was trying to do.
On good roads under 30 KM/H ABS is a looser, maybe not all ABS systems but some are. what happens is under wheel rotation it detects lock up and releases, but the wheel has to do a full rotation at less strength braking power until it detects again.
The brake thumps donk donk donk donk before it stops and each donk is a brake release, I can out brake it by 1/4 the distance or half and a make that can drive backs me up on this as a fact, I once said hell I nearly ran into someone because of the bloody ABS is to slow to react and he said he has the same thing happen to him. I seen him loose his VS SS ute once coming around a sharp bend on the race track, I am sure what happened was the lean of the car was very much and it pulled on the proportioning valve mid right hand corner locking the rear a touch, he came back spinning out saying did you see that, I sad yep ! the VS SS ute does not have a rear sway bar and they lean over very much more so.

Hell I know what ABS is capable of and what it is not, than to have some twerps of the street try to inform me of something that they think I don't know of.
I was doing around 220 KM/H once in the rain on a badly puddled road, just testing mind and I just slammed on the ABS as hard as I could, now that was impressive as to the best points of ABS being just magic.

To know a cars capability's is a good thing as that way you know what it can and can't do.

Most people drive in total ignorance, tyre pressures all over the place could not care what tyres they put on and I could go on and on.