Preliminary VFacts December 2015

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Large sedans have been dead since the SUV craze in the mid 2000s, so it wouldnt matter what Ford did to the Falcon it was always on borrowed time. Bit like spending a heap of money on an old house when you know in a decade or so developers will come through and knock it down anyway.

Its just lucky Ford Oz took the gamble on the Territory which basically kept Ford Oz alive for as long as it did.

even the ultra expensive sedans are seeing a reduction in sales.
That's why Bentley is moving into the ultra luxury SUV market, to re capture lost sales AND expand their market.

[Iggle Piggle]

I agree both need to transition away from what was previously their bread and butter (and both have been). They just need do their best to not damage their brand image in the process.

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by Iggle Piggle

I agree with what you said about both having to transition away from the Falcon and Commodore car companies, but I think Ford are damaging their brand in the way the are handling it.

Ford let Falcon wither on the vine while Ford was/is still the Falcon car company, so those people at work you speak of see Falcon is on the nose therefore (to them) Ford is also on the nose.

Commodore (the 'local' one) looks likely to remain strong to the end, therefore Holden's brand/image will not cop the same self-inflicted damage prior to what will likely be a quicker transition for them.
.

Good, valid point mate and it will be interesting to see which strategy worked.

I think we generally agree that both brands are on the nose due to their respective large car images and I did forget ( thanks Ford Falcon XR6 ) Holden say they are continuing the Commodore nameplate and I wonder if the public perception of Holden will in fact continue as the Commodre car company and the legacy of its associated image continues onto the new FWD model.

I'd expect the majority of Commodore sales these days are still to fleets at aggressively discounted prices and the profitable sales being private V8 buyers. If this is the case, I can't see the new FWD Commodore taking up where the RWD left off.

I don't subscribe to the 'Australia's been had' argument. Both Holden and Ford HAD to do something, we know the Falcon was on borrowed time since the advent of the One Ford policy, Ford at one point were going to manufacture The Focus here which would have transitioned manufacturing from the Falcon to the Focus but it ultimately didn't stack up. Ford AU had to back out of the Falcon somehow, as they are in the business of making money. A strategic/slow back out that cost them the least $$ makes sense, add to that the peripheral industries had a clear picture going forwards and were able to adjust accordingly too.

[Iggle Piggle]

I lament the loss of local manufacturing and all its associated benefits and value-adds, but I also fear the day when it becomes viable again as our economy has totally tanked.

[Shonky.]

Mate, that's not the case

With the right management, the right government policy and support, and a better educated/less head up its own *** population it could totally work in this country

But now Ford has proven it can't, when in fact it wasn't even trying, makes it hard tp prove otherwise.

Everyone keeps going back to the fact that large sedans are in decline, but my point of view is less about Falcon, more about local production.

For eg. Camry was selling fine, but Ford effectively killed us building that too

Another eg. Focus should have been built here. I reckon Ford would be in a totally different place if it did

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Shonky.

Mate, that's not the case

With the right management, the right government policy and support, and a better educated/less head up its own *** population it could totally work in this country

But now Ford has proven it can't, when in fact it wasn't even trying, makes it hard tp prove otherwise.

Everyone keeps going back to the fact that large sedans are in decline, but my point of view is less about Falcon, more about local production.

For eg. Camry was selling fine, but Ford effectively killed us building that too

Another eg. Focus should have been built here. I reckon Ford would be in a totally different place if it did

The Focus class is the most competitive class in the Automotive industry here in Oz.

That class' buyer buys on price, a lot of the class is fleet now too ! I imagine Ford pulled the plug on the Focus being build here once the free trade agreements started being negotiated and passed by our illustrious leaders.

Holden lose money on every Cruze they make, so I imagine that Focus would have been a disaster if it was made here (especially if you take into account the DSG transmission debacle).

[danzvtil]

[QUOTE=Shonky.;5560152]Mate, that's not the case

With the right management, the right government policy and support, and a better educated/less head up its own *** population it could totally work in this country Management has nothing to do with it, the fundamentals of mass producing a car, any type of car in this country has changed.

But now Ford has proven it can't, when in fact it wasn't even trying, makes it hard tp prove otherwise.

Everyone keeps going back to the fact that large sedans are in decline, but my point of view is less about Falcon, more about local production.

For eg. Camry was selling fine, but Ford effectively killed us building that too Toyota was never going to run out of parts when Ford stopped production and suppliers closed down. Camry is built in 8 other plants across the globe.
Another eg. Focus should have been built here. I reckon Ford would be in a totally different place if it did That would have been a short term prospect just like the aussie Cruze was, number 1 car sells 40K p/a, cruze sells 30K if that, so 30k cruzes and 30k commos is still below break even for a modern car plant. Modern Asian plants have a capacity of 250k, we will never get near that in a pink fit, and no export markets will take from us either.

[Windsor220]

Weren't Toyota losing money on their operations here? They may have been selling cars but kind of pointless if you aren't making a profit.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

Weren't Toyota losing money on their operations here? They may have been selling cars but kind of pointless if you aren't making a profit.

Toyota were the most profitable. They had no problem in continuing from a monetry point of view. But whats the point when Ford and Holden are leaving. Most of the buying public don't care were the car is built.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Toyota were the most profitable. They had no problem in continuing from a monetry point of view. But whats the point when Ford and Holden are leaving. Most of the buying public don't care were the car is built.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business...a7b-1452427974

That was an article from a couple of years ago. I dont think they could survive losing money on every car they made.

[Adamz Ghia]

My understanding was Toyota would have continued if Holden had as well as it would have meant a viable supplier base. But they couldn't do it alone and have it make economic sense.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business...a7b-1452427974

That was an article from a couple of years ago. I dont think they could survive losing money on every car they made.

According to this article, only made a profit twice in 6 years.
http://www.news.com.au/finance/busin...0c935ea8bdb372

I think with Toyota, a number of factors came into it, high AU $, high cost of manufacturing here and the fact they had to compete with a number of other factories across the globe for the contract, of which could do it cheaper.

[Iggle Piggle]

About a third of their workforce taking a sickie adjacent to a public holiday when things were being seriously evaluated didn't help either.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business...a7b-1452427974

That was an article from a couple of years ago. I dont think they could survive losing money on every car they made.

They would have continued.

But is the same company that was pinched dodgy accounting here.

[simon varley]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Most of the buying public don't care were the car is built.

and there you have it. A few whingers on this forum doesn't change that simple fact.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by simon varley

and there you have it. A few whingers on this forum doesn't change that simple fact.

If people cared then the locals wouldn't be shutting up shop.

[Spammy]

Originally Posted by vztrt

If people cared then the locals wouldn't be shutting up shop.

Are you suggesting people should buy an outdated, poorly built car that does not suit their needs just because it is made in Australia.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Spammy

Are you suggesting people should buy an outdated, poorly built car that does not suit their needs just because it is made in Australia.

They don't buy the best in the range now. Also some of the import stuff is no better the locals. You want better quality your paying more then the price of the locals.

They also buy what they perceive they need.

They also buy to save FBT money. Or to save tax.

Cut all the BS tax breaks out and watch the car market change. Full logbook system.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Iggle Piggle

I agree with what you said about both having to transition away from the Falcon and Commodore car companies, but I think Ford are damaging their brand in the way the are handling it.

Ford let Falcon wither on the vine while Ford was/is still the Falcon car company, so those people at work you speak of see Falcon is on the nose therefore (to them) Ford is also on the nose.

Commodore (the 'local' one) looks likely to remain strong to the end, therefore Holden's brand/image will not cop the same self-inflicted damage prior to what will likely be a quicker transition for them.

People say Holden ****ed money away on the final Commodore - I reckon they invested now to maintain brand image and minimise damage, rather than spend more later over a longer period to try to rebuild and undo damage they themselves would have done to their brand if they had followed Ford's approach.

I suspect GM spent money on the last Commodore, because it was suppose to be a platform that lasted on the production line for a few years to come, quite possibly with another reskin left in it, until both Chev and Opel were ready for a more ordered transition. That transition would have included a RHD V8 Camaro. The election of the LNP and the far rights determination to rid us of a car industry, killed that plan stone cold dead and Commodore was fated to end early on the VF series. A car that was and is the best thing Holden have ever made.

[Giant Cranium]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

I suspect GM spent money on the last Commodore, because it was suppose to be a platform that lasted on the production line for a few years to come, quite possibly with another reskin left in it, until both Chev and Opel were ready for a more ordered transition. That transition would have included a RHD V8 Camaro. The election of the LNP and the far rights determination to rid us of a car industry, killed that plan stone cold dead and Commodore was fated to end early on the VF series. A car that was and is the best thing Holden have ever made.

Some one always goes political. Mitsubishi and ford left under labor and Holden and Toyota left under liberal. Two each.

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

I suspect GM spent money on the last Commodore, because it was suppose to be a platform that lasted on the production line for a few years to come, quite possibly with another reskin left in it, until both Chev and Opel were ready for a more ordered transition. That transition would have included a RHD V8 Camaro. The election of the LNP and the far rights determination to rid us of a car industry, killed that plan stone cold dead and Commodore was fated to end early on the VF series. A car that was and is the best thing Holden have ever made.

Pretty sure the VE/ VF platform was to be replaced in 2011/ 2012, how ever GM's issues killed that idea.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

Pretty sure the VE/ VF platform was to be replaced in 2011/ 2012, how ever GM's issues killed that idea.

Correct, on release of the VE, Holden was saying that platforms would only run for 5 - 6 years compared to the previous cycles of 9 - 10. Well, now the final cycle would have run for 11 years by the time 2017 comes around.

[Spammy]

You can debate all the bs conspiracy theories you want....cold hard facts are that building a low margin (negative margin), low volume, big family sedan for a small isolated market that no longer wants big family sedans is a very flawed business model. Going forward it was only going to get harder as the cost of rolling out a new hi tech models ges higher and higher. Simply slapping new tail lights on an existing body just doesn't cut it anymore.

Only thing ford and Holden are guilty of is not shutting down local production earlier and doing a better job of importing cars from their global range.