VFacts January 2023.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by kypez

Maybe it is the age groups we're a member of. I offered to swap out our Model 3's for a Model Y SUV for my mum (66) and my inlaws (66 and 72) and both said no, the Y is too big, we prefer the sedan!! Go figure.

The numbers for California, the home of the SUV, make interesting reading in a market that has both vehicles for sale for over 12 months.

The Model 3 was the bestselling EV in California in 2022 with 94,683 sales, followed by the Model Y (93,872)

I agree with you and expect Australia to favour SUVs but it isn't a 1:2 or 1:3 ratio that I thought it might end up.

Even with our Model Y, I still prefer our Model S. Give me a Sedan every day of the week.

I thought we were talking SUV vs Sedan? I have no interest talking Tesla.
They made a special breakout forum for that - its down the bottom...

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

I thought we were talking SUV vs Sedan? I have no interest talking Tesla.
They made a special breakout forum for that - its down the bottom...

I was. And was referencing the Sedan and SUV I had and that friends were buying where there is a Sedan and SUV on offer for similar money in a similar class. It seems that EVs are bucking the trend on Sedans vs SUVs. It'll be interesting to see if that trend continues with other SUVs as well where EVs follow a different path to the ICE.

Are you referencing only ICE Sedan vs SUV? Are we breaking that out into a different forum as well?

[Poetic Justice]

I get the SUV thing but on looks alone I'm buying a sedan Tesla.. the SUVs are ugly.

I like SUVs but at the moment I'm driving a 300 SRT and the boot is actually quite decent. I've got no issues with its room.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by kypez

I agree with you and expect Australia to favour SUVs but it isn't a 1:2 or 1:3 ratio that I thought it might end up.

If you look at the graphs at the bottom of the Drive article, linked in post #13, you'll notice that SUV's do actually outsell passenger cars by 2:1 minimum, esp last year.

I can't see that reversing any time soon.

[FTE217]

Damn Toyota is a machine.......

Sedans are dead but Camry keeps going in Cali as no4 followed by Corolla.
Rav4 is no3 behind the batteries.
Cali, always been the outlier trendsetter US State, densely populated cities, small towns and everything in between.
High cost of living
State tax's normally cost more excl NY.
Affordable housing shortage
No wonder they going battery and the subsides over the years.
Hey but its nice to visit

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

I get the SUV thing but on looks alone I'm buying a sedan Tesla.. the SUVs are ugly.

I like SUVs but at the moment I'm driving a 300 SRT and the boot is actually quite decent. I've got no issues with its room.

I think both the sedan and SUV are ugly but some actually like it. Goes to show that many will buy function over form.

I personally hate SUVs. Only got one due to the new baby in our world and running out of room with the baby seat in play.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[kypez]

Originally Posted by prydey

If you look at the graphs at the bottom of the Drive article, linked in post #13, you'll notice that SUV's do actually outsell passenger cars by 2:1 minimum, esp last year.



I can't see that reversing any time soon.

Yes, it is for traditional cars. Will it change with electrification? I'm curious to see how it goes. Sedans are just so much nicer to drive once you get in.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[kypez]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Damn Toyota is a machine.......



Sedans are dead but Camry keeps going in Cali as no4 followed by Corolla.

Rav4 is no3 behind the batteries.

Cali, always been the outlier trendsetter US State, densely populated cities, small towns and everything in between.

High cost of living

State tax's normally cost more excl NY.

Affordable housing shortage

No wonder they going battery and the subsides over the years.

Hey but its nice to visit

Sounds very similar to the Australia eastern seaboard.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[FTE217]

Sydney yer.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by kypez

Yes, it is for traditional cars. Will it change with electrification? I'm curious to see how it goes. Sedans are just so much nicer to drive once you get in.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

Have a look at the top 10 vehicles every month, or even the top 20. I don't think being nice to drive is rated the same by the bulk of the buying public.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Damn Toyota is a machine.......

Sedans are dead but Camry keeps going in Cali as no4 followed by Corolla.
Rav4 is no3 behind the batteries.
Cali, always been the outlier trendsetter US State, densely populated cities, small towns and everything in between.
High cost of living
State tax's normally cost more excl NY.
Affordable housing shortage
No wonder they going battery and the subsides over the years.
Hey but its nice to visit

Ya know, even with almost every other carmaker withdrawing from selling sedans in USA,
Camry sales continue to slowly decline because Toyota knows that most are going to RAV4

[FTE217]

jpd no doubt the new gen Rav4 is pulling great sales for them.
My point was Camry is doing surprisingly ok despite its decline.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by kypez

Yes, it is for traditional cars. Will it change with electrification? I'm curious to see how it goes. Sedans are just so much nicer to drive once you get in.

Can you define Nice? because I think an SUV is much nicer to drive & easier to ingress

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

Can you define Nice? because I think an SUV is much nicer to drive & easier to ingress

Getting in and out is only a small part of a journey. SUVs roll more, wallow over bumps and have much thicker profile tyres that makes the steering vague. They also have bigger side areas that upset the car in windy conditions. Sedans are so much nicer in general. SUVs are also prone to roll overs unless EV with the battery weight down low (not impossible but harder).

[prydey]

Originally Posted by kypez

Getting in and out is only a small part of a journey. SUVs roll more, wallow over bumps and have much thicker profile tyres that makes the steering vague. They also have bigger side areas that upset the car in windy conditions. Sedans are so much nicer in general. SUVs are also prone to roll overs unless EV with the battery weight down low (not impossible but harder).

After owning a territory and coming from a FG xr6, I would never buy another falcon, or sedan.

I don't actually like to feel every bump in the road. I think one can only speak for themselves when it comes to what characteristics they like in a car. I don't think many buyers of SUV type vehicles have any problem with how they go, stop and steer.

I wouldn't say they are more prone to rolling over either. Theoretically they might be I guess but I doubt it actually translates to real world stats.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by kypez

Getting in and out is only a small part of a journey. SUVs roll more, wallow over bumps and have much thicker profile tyres that makes the steering vague. They also have bigger side areas that upset the car in windy conditions. Sedans are so much nicer in general. SUVs are also prone to roll overs unless EV with the battery weight down low (not impossible but harder).

I think because SUVs get lumped together with Prado/Everest 4WD types. the road going ones like the territory and BMW Ive owned do not suffer from what you describe.
Kluger/CX9 used to suffer from a wallow type feel, but I believe the new ones are pretty good.

As I stated its not a trend, they are just better hence more popular, you already stated personally hate SUVs so I don't expect to convert you.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by prydey

After owning a territory and coming from a FG xr6, I would never buy another falcon, or sedan.

I don't actually like to feel every bump in the road. I think one can only speak for themselves when it comes to what characteristics they like in a car. I don't think many buyers of SUV type vehicles have any problem with how they go, stop and steer.

I wouldn't say they are more prone to rolling over either. Theoretically they might be I guess but I doubt it actually translates to real world stats.

My sister in-law refused to look at Territorys when they came out as she was worried they would tip with a gust of wind when going over the Harbour bridge...

funny she drives a Sante Fe now

[FTE217]

you got that right prydey, its all up to the individual.
We all have our likes and dislikes.
If I recall right you have always preffered a softer feeling ride, XR's we're probably never the right fit for you more so a Fairmont or G6 imo.

Whereas one thing I'll agree with kypez is engagement and sportier types of rides.
I agree with his SUV drive descriptions barring IF when I buy one for a daily it will be something like a X3M40i/SLine/AMG models, let alone be it Jap or whatever sports versions.
I can't stand driving my wife's CX5 Sportmax or whatever it is called, infact I avoid it like the plague whereas most would say they are a nice car period.
They are but meh for me.
When I jump into my typically OE low 330i msport daily despite only having a 2.0lT it steers/reacts and minimal body roll and smooth as, absolute pleasure to drive.
Those SUV's models I mention are in the picture even though I'm down for a Amarok Aventura (and I'll firm it up) and if I was inclined I'd jump in a mid size Euro sedan no worries at all. Love em.
Beautiful driving experience - floaty not for me.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by FTE217

you got that right prydey, its all up to the individual.
We all have our likes and dislikes.
If I recall right you have always preffered a softer feeling ride, XR's we're probably never the right fit for you more so a Fairmont or G6 imo.

.

No, I just got old... Haha

I loved my XR. I did adjust my driving style when I bought the Territory but the benefits of that type of vehicle far outweigh any benefits a sedan would offer me.

I would say the vast majority of people are not 'enthusiasts' so cars are just transport and SUV are easier to live with day in day out.

I like cars, but my cars are for practical reasons.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kypez

Getting in and out is only a small part of a journey. SUVs roll more, wallow over bumps and have much thicker profile tyres that makes the steering vague. They also have bigger side areas that upset the car in windy conditions. Sedans are so much nicer in general. SUVs are also prone to roll overs unless EV with the battery weight down low (not impossible but harder).

I agree with all this but I've always had Ford Euro hatches as my dailies, the access/egress isn't a problem for me and I'm not bothered by road noise or harsh ride - so I'm certainly not the typical consumer in this regard.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by prydey

No, I just got old... Haha

I loved my XR. I did adjust my driving style when I bought the Territory but the benefits of that type of vehicle far outweigh any benefits a sedan would offer me.

I would say the vast majority of people are not 'enthusiasts' so cars are just transport and SUV are easier to live with day in day out.

I like cars, but my cars are for practical reasons.

haha old - er !

Oh I hear you why I've mentioned majority, that the volume market, like my wife is A to B and practical.
I go to sleep.

My choices have to fall in with practical/ have to be sporty and go, minority I guess.
Hence considering the V6 dual cab, at least it will go since my earlier D4 experience but put on better brakes and better suspension for one.
Hence why I went wagon next, I need size but need also for my coastal trips so took the Hilux off the son week before last for we love getting on beachs/dunes etc.....

Wonder IF I get a X3 or 4M will it survive sand expiditions haha

[Poetic Justice]

Yeah the old enthusiast magnifying glass that casts its view over these forums.. we're going to be pro driver cars, rather than looking at them pragmatically.

Having said that, the cars I've enjoyed driving most over recent years are Jeep SRTs/Trackhawks.. I'd have one of them any day of the week (fuel bill aside) - and I miss my old one.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

I think because SUVs get lumped together with Prado/Everest 4WD types. the road going ones like the territory and BMW Ive owned do not suffer from what you describe.
Kluger/CX9 used to suffer from a wallow type feel, but I believe the new ones are pretty good.

As I stated its not a trend, they are just better hence more popular, you already stated personally hate SUVs so I don't expect to convert you.

Funnily enough, I don't might the 4WD like the Everest. They serve a purpose in my mind, i.e. going off road. SUVs don't present as drivers cars and whilst I did enjoy driving a Territory back in the day, the dynamics were just too compromised for me to live with daily. If they set them up for better handling, you get all the bumps but with the bonus body roll. I just can't enjoy them. The wife drives the Model Y. I think most people like SUVs cause the higher driving position makes them feel safer on the road...

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

My sister in-law refused to look at Territorys when they came out as she was worried they would tip with a gust of wind when going over the Harbour bridge...

funny she drives a Sante Fe now

Don't know about tipping over but you can definitely feel the wind across the car in a SUV over a sedan.

Originally Posted by prydey

After owning a territory and coming from a FG xr6, I would never buy another falcon, or sedan.

I don't actually like to feel every bump in the road. I think one can only speak for themselves when it comes to what characteristics they like in a car. I don't think many buyers of SUV type vehicles have any problem with how they go, stop and steer.

I wouldn't say they are more prone to rolling over either. Theoretically they might be I guess but I doubt it actually translates to real world stats.

True. As said before, looking at the top selling cars in this country, driver cars are not the priority. Who in their right mind buys a Ranger or Hilux for how they drive on the road. Under-powered weak cars. I miss when we bought XR6T/XR8 Utes and even SS Commodores. Though, even a NA XR6 would blow the doors of all Rangers bar the Raptor.

Have a look at the Facebook page, Dashcam owners of Australia. There is a SUV rolling at least once a week on that page. Sometimes, more times.

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I agree with all this but I've always had Ford Euro hatches as my dailies, the access/egress isn't a problem for me and I'm not bothered by road noise or harsh ride - so I'm certainly not the typical consumer in this regard.

Our G6E was a case of having your cake and eating it too. It was smooth, had grunt and handled very well. Had all the comfort of a SUV without the compromises (bar the boot space, can't beat that in a SUV). The Ecoboost was a little firmer than the EcoLpi but it was still a joy.

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

Yeah the old enthusiast magnifying glass that casts its view over these forums.. we're going to be pro driver cars, rather than looking at them pragmatically.

Having said that, the cars I've enjoyed driving most over recent years are Jeep SRTs/Trackhawks.. I'd have one of them any day of the week (fuel bill aside) - and I miss my old one.

To me, Jeep SRTs/Cayenne or any pumped up SUV is like a "Thai girl". Sure they might sound nice, look good and have some go, but whats the point.

[Poetic Justice]

Originally Posted by kypez

To me, Jeep SRTs/Cayenne or any pumped up SUV is like a "Thai girl". Sure they might sound nice, look good and have some go, but whats the point.

What's not the point?

> The sound
> They can keep quite a few performance cars, sedans, hatches honest
> In Trackhawk form they are an absolute monster
> You mentioned an SUV for kids, which is why I bought (2 in baby seats with 1 pram for the boot)
> Panoramic sunroof
> Awesome seats, heated & cooled
> Factory sound system is great

But each to their own, of course, of course..

[kypez]

Originally Posted by FTE217

haha old - er !

Oh I hear you why I've mentioned majority, that the volume market, like my wife is A to B and practical.
I go to sleep.

My choices have to fall in with practical/ have to be sporty and go, minority I guess.
Hence considering the V6 dual cab, at least it will go since my earlier D4 experience but put on better brakes and better suspension for one.
Hence why I went wagon next, I need size but need also for my coastal trips so took the Hilux off the son week before last for we love getting on beachs/dunes etc.....

Wonder IF I get a X3 or 4M will it survive sand expiditions haha

I agree with you there that most cars sold are so boring. Heck, look at MG sales. If you get past the Chinese thing, they are actually not fun to drive at all. Steering a vague, suspension is average, but they're cheap.

Our Everest was so gutless even with 5 cylinders. Problem on the sand with a X3 or 4M is the lack of locking diffs (unless they have changed this recently). If you get in soft sand, they'll just spin up. Also, haven't checked this in a while, but they used to use a type of Haldex centre diff (like the last iteration of the Territory) that only engages the front or rear wheels if there is slip detected which if on sand, you'd already be stuck by the time it engages.

One you might not expect to do well but does off road is the GLS. It even has a trick to bounce the suspension if you get stuck to get the car free. Nice bit of kit and some nice go as well.

If the Raptor had more space, I'd be keen. As it stands, waiting on the F150. Be interesting how it goes off road and what protections they offer.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

What's not the point?

> The sound
> They can keep quite a few performance cars, sedans, hatches honest
> In Trackhawk form they are an absolute monster
> You mentioned an SUV for kids, which is why I bought (2 in baby seats with 1 pram for the boot)
> Panoramic sunroof
> Awesome seats, heated & cooled
> Factory sound system is great

But each to their own, of course, of course..

I know. It's just compromised is all. Straight line monster no doubt. With their huge brakes, they can't get proper off road tyres on them which defeats the purpose of a 4x4 in my eyes. The other features like Panoramic Roof, Seats and sound systems can be had in a Sedan. An F150 Raptor is a great case of the best of both worlds but isn't quite a SUV.

Interestingly, I recently put the baby seat in the GTF. I can have my seat all the way back without it hitting the seat. My Everest, Model Y, Model 3, Model S, literally everything else I own has to have the seats moved forward (either driver or passenger). Who would've thought the Falcon Sedan would be the winner!!

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by prydey

After owning a territory and coming from a FG xr6, I would never buy another falcon, or sedan.

I don't actually like to feel every bump in the road. I think one can only speak for themselves when it comes to what characteristics they like in a car. I don't think many buyers of SUV type vehicles have any problem with how they go, stop and steer.

I wouldn't say they are more prone to rolling over either. Theoretically they might be I guess but I doubt it actually translates to real world stats.

This ^^^

I remember when we picked up our brand new diesel Territory in 2012, the next day, we had a trip from the Surf Coast in Victoria to Port Fairy, I think it was 44 deg c, that SUV was perfect.

The air con was tremendous, the car drove like a dream, the inside was cool, and it was able to fit all of our family's belonging for the week perfectly, it was just amazing. That wouldn’t have been the case in the FG XR6 Turbo.

We haven’t gone back to a Sedan since, we’ve had other Ford SUV’s, but the next one will be a new Everest Sport.

[kypez]

I know it is a few years in the past now, but did Territory outsell Falcon at any point? I know Falcon had Taxi's that boosted it but curious how close the numbers were.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by kypez

I agree with you there that most cars sold are so boring. Heck, look at MG sales. If you get past the Chinese thing, they are actually not fun to drive at all. Steering a vague, suspension is average, but they're cheap.

Our Everest was so gutless even with 5 cylinders. Problem on the sand with a X3 or 4M is the lack of locking diffs (unless they have changed this recently). If you get in soft sand, they'll just spin up. Also, haven't checked this in a while, but they used to use a type of Haldex centre diff (like the last iteration of the Territory) that only engages the front or rear wheels if there is slip detected which if on sand, you'd already be stuck by the time it engages.

One you might not expect to do well but does off road is the GLS. It even has a trick to bounce the suspension if you get stuck to get the car free. Nice bit of kit and some nice go as well.

If the Raptor had more space, I'd be keen. As it stands, waiting on the F150. Be interesting how it goes off road and what protections they offer.

yep car engagement choice is getting worse and worse, more so under the $120k mark if you wish for 6cyc at least.
Could have gone through pony model by model by now but 2 doors has never suited me.
If I have to have garage queens the falcons do me not a inpractical 2door.
Yer I was only joking putting the X3 on the beach, no chance repair costs before you know it let alone getting bogged.
GLS another, forget euros around sand and salt, gremlins come soon enough in them not going to fast track that
Hey win win for the mighty Falcon !
Look even the v6 ranger or rok sure won't be a handler without tweaks but they are my best option that covers my annual usuage whereas even a X3/4/C43 daily would be nice to potter around in but bunnings trips, wifes shopping madness of varied sized items, oh can you pick up this from such and such, then coast trips with beach gear, luggage, golf sticks, boards on racks, I reckon the wife bought something from every single Tamborine Mountain shop (not all trinket stuff I tell you) !, even the SUV style won't carry all this with ease.
As mentioned, took the sons 4x4 hilux the other week to GC and back with all the above, even a SUV wouldn't have covered the load with the ease it did.

PJ, those Jeeps are beasts, I don't care about fuel costs that much but the SRT man, talk about eats every ute for brekky and dinna lol.......

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by kypez

I know it is a few years in the past now, but did Territory outsell Falcon at any point? I know Falcon had Taxi's that boosted it but curious how close the numbers were.

In the last year or two, Territory was strongly outselling Falcon.

Taxi sales didn't really factor into FG sales, by then Ford had dumped the Taxi pack and were not actively perusing taxi sales. From what I have been told, taxi operators were buying ex-fleet Falcon's second hand. Once again, a customer that never wanted to buy a NEW Falcon, just heavily depreciated on the secondhand market.