Covid 19 -

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

You're not limited to staying within a certain radius from home? Or was your 40km all completed within that radius?

My running partner indicated that Strava shares showed people were regularly going outside of the 5km radius we were restricted to during lockdown. I wonder if the authorities can get access to that to have a quiet talk to those who are pushing the friendship?

Ha Ha

It felt like 40 km- but I just looked at my strava rides history for months ago- the loop was only 25.61 km. Felt like 40 km- oh well.

My house is on a peninsula on Lake Macquarie, and to my eye the entire "loop" that I did looks like it is just within a 10 km odd radius from my house as the crow flies, and in any event is all the Local Government area- being Lake Macquarie.

The rules are:

Exercise and recreation
Stay in your local government area or up to 10km from home.

So it is one or the other- thank goodness I live in Lake Macquarie which is a large local government area....

[ford71V8]

As far as the abuse you received while on your pushie, I was under the impression this is just the norm, Covid stress, lockdowns, or otherwise.


:-)

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-b1900198.html

Herd immunity is “not a possibility” due to the prevalence of the Delta variant, a scientist behind the Oxford vaccine has warned, amid signs that the UK’s recent fall in Covid cases and hospital admissions is stagnating.

Professor Sir Andrew Pollard, director of the Oxford Vaccine Group, said there is likely to be some “bumpiness” in transmission and “uncertainty of what happens next over the next six months”, with scientists expecting a rise in cases ahead of winter as the weather worsens and people spend more time inside.

And because of mounting evidence that the highly transmissible Delta variant can infect those who have been vaccinated, it’s unlikely that herd immunity will ever be reached, said Sir Andrew, meaning infections will continue to bubble away throughout the population – as now appears to be the case.

At the end of the day our choices will be;

Get vaccine, give yourself more options, reduce the severity when you finally get it and assist in reducing the transmission rate

or...

Try your luck.

Anything else is a bonus, and yeah we may need boosters etc.

[Citroënbender]

How does NSW intend to address the burden of proof for people alleging they’re visiting intimate partners? Not everyone has sexy selfies or pillow talk messages on their phone. It seems the authorities are moving towards an ad-hoc compliance driven revenue model, rather than actually developing an enduring Covid strategy.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

How does NSW intend to address the burden of proof for people alleging they’re visiting intimate partners? Not everyone has sexy selfies or pillow talk messages on their phone. It seems the authorities are moving towards an ad-hoc compliance driven revenue model, rather than actually developing an enduring Covid strategy.

Not sure- but if confronted and an election has been made as to who the intimate partner is, checks can be made.

I am interested as to what timeframe the intimate partner bubble lasts for and rules regarding debubbling the bubble-ie get one hookup on tinder and "elect" that is your intimate partner for 12 hours to allow for the hookup, then elect to Uncouple and back on tinder for a new "intimate partner" bubble coupling.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

How does NSW intend to address the burden of proof for people alleging they’re visiting intimate partners? Not everyone has sexy selfies or pillow talk messages on their phone. It seems the authorities are moving towards an ad-hoc compliance driven revenue model, rather than actually developing an enduring Covid strategy.

The intimate and single bubble has been in existance in all of vics lock downs. There is no proof required and works on the honour system. However, if more than one person gets stopped and mention the same address as their single bubble, that would obviously be a red signal. Or if you had more than one person in the car with you.....don't laugh.... It happens! They probably keep a record if you get stopped? I've never been stopped, but know of people who have. They just give name and destination, and off they go.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

How does NSW intend to address the burden of proof for people alleging they’re visiting intimate partners? Not everyone has sexy selfies or pillow talk messages on their phone. It seems the authorities are moving towards an ad-hoc compliance driven revenue model, rather than actually developing an enduring Covid strategy.

What If Old mate has Multiple "Friends with Benefits"..?? of He's a Mormon..

[MITCHAY]

ACT off the bench and into the lockdown circus

[ute83]

Doesn't anybody want to address the elephant in the room.

Two men in their nineties from NSW died from the disease yesterday. One had one AZ jab and the other had both Phizer jabs.

[lumen8]

Originally Posted by ute83

Doesn't anybody want to address the elephant in the room.

Two men in their nineties from NSW died from the disease yesterday. One had one AZ jab and the other had both Phizer jabs.

Such a shame their lives were cut short , they had such a bright future ahead of them.

(yea i know i know, i'll get to their age one day too... if im lucky)

[shedcoupe]

Originally Posted by ute83

Doesn't anybody want to address the elephant in the room.
Two men in their nineties from NSW died from the disease yesterday. One had one AZ jab and the other had both Phizer jabs.

More wombat-sized than elephantine.
Blokes in their nineties are well past their expiry dates and it wouldn't take much of a respiratory illness to take them out.
Vaccination doesn't prevent infection - it just reduces the severity of the symptoms. Allegedly.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by ute83

Doesn't anybody want to address the elephant in the room.

Two men in their nineties from NSW died from the disease yesterday. One had one AZ jab and the other had both Phizer jabs.

They Claim 95 and 98 percent efficacy, not 100%. So if 100 people in their 90's what normally happens, few walk out again. You will still lose some people in their 90's that are vaccinated.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by ute83

Doesn't anybody want to address the elephant in the room.

Two men in their nineties from NSW died from the disease yesterday. One had one AZ jab and the other had both Phizer jabs.

Did they die With Covid,or because of It..???

[MITCHAY]

After browsing through the exposure locations, I'd be highly doubtful this ends in 7 days. Already another 3 positive cases reported, testing centres jammed.

To be honest I'm surprised as **** it took this long. It was always when, not if

[JasonACT]

The person has 9 close contacts, 3 tested positive, 6 negative at the moment.

Any word on the variant? I can't see any mention of delta in the articles.

[Citroënbender]

Originally Posted by JasonACT

Any word on the variant? I can't see any mention of delta in the articles.

It’s the sub-strain “Schmelta”.

Good to see potential exposure levels being raised by panic shoppers. You’d think people had learned by now.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by JasonACT

The person has 9 close contacts, 3 tested positive, 6 negative at the moment.

Any word on the variant? I can't see any mention of delta in the articles.

I haven't seen any either but I reckon it's pretty reasonable to assume it is Delta. I reckon everyone is waiting to understand how our luck ran out.

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

It’s the sub-strain “Schmelta”.

Good to see potential exposure levels being raised by panic shoppers. You’d think people had learned by now.

This is what I don't get. Everyone packs into shops which is not ideal when you can still go out and get food.

I have literally **** all and didn't even bother, just went straight home and hopefully get a shop in tomorrow.

I'm more dirty that I can't get my hair cut on the weekend as it is out of control

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I'm more dirty that I can't get my hair cut on the weekend as it is out of control

And you can forget about karoke for a while!

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

And you can forget about karoke for a while!

Sinking a couple of tins with Spotify going is pretty standard for Friday nights

I can't remember the last time I actually went out anywhere so apart from work, I won't notice the difference. Doesn't matter how **** it looks at home

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

To be honest I'm surprised as **** it took this long. It was always when, not if

Well it does look odd does it not, like the missing piece of a jigsaw puzzle...

Currently declared COVID-19 hotspots.

[Citroënbender]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I'm more dirty that I can't get my hair cut on the weekend as it is out of control

Tinder/Grindr/POF/Scruff/Whatever - just put it out there, that they have to be good with haircutting.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

Well it does look odd does it not, like the missing piece of a jigsaw puzzle...

Currently declared COVID-19 hotspots.

Lucky for the rest of Australia, it was the last sitting day for this session in parliament so your clowns probably managed to fly home

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I'm more dirty that I can't get my hair cut on the weekend as it is out of control

That's a problem I'd like to have

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by ute83

Doesn't anybody want to address the elephant in the room.

Two men in their nineties from NSW died from the disease yesterday. One had one AZ jab and the other had both Phizer jabs.

answer my elephant in the room - did they die OF COVID or WITH COVID? There is a BIG difference

[DJR-351]

New system: Four tiers to guide businesses on mandatory vaccinations

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fede...jobid=29325421

Australia’s workplace watchdog will dump its guidance to employers that they are “overwhelmingly” unable to require staff to be vaccinated and instead adopt a four tier system backing mandatory vaccinations for key industries.

The Fair Work Ombudsman says border control, quarantine, healthcare and aged care organisations are “more likely” to be allowed to mandate jabs for their staff. Essential businesses in areas of coronavirus transmission, which would include supermarkets in parts of western Sydney, are also “likely” to be allowed to require their staff to receive a vaccination.

Whether an individual workplace is allowed to require vaccination from its staff still depends on the legal threshold of “reasonableness” but the ombudsman’s intervention sends a clear signal to businesses about which firms can expect to be able to require jabs as employers beg for clarity.

The fourth tier of the new advice, which was made public shortly after The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age revealed its contents, says people working from home are least likely to face mandatory workplace jabs.

In each case, the draft stresses that a business may employ people in different categories, that discrimination law applies and that the guidance is not legally binding.

Before the advice was issued, former Fair Work Ombudsman Natalie James had said the federal government needed to step in and issue clear guidance to businesses.

“I have to say it feels a little bit like from the government it’s all care and no responsibility because business is carrying all the risk,” said Ms James, now a partner leading professional services firm Deloitte’s workplace integrity team.

The four tiers of work in the FWO advice

Tier 1 work, where employees are required as part of their duties to interact with people with an increased risk of being infected with coronavirus (for example, employees working in hotel quarantine or border control).

Tier 2 work, where employees are required to have close contact with people who are particularly vulnerable to the health impacts of coronavirus (for example, employees working in health care or aged care).

Tier 3 work, where there is interaction or likely interaction between employees and other people such as customers, other employees or the public in the normal course of employment (for example, stores providing essential goods and services).

Tier 4 work, where employees have minimal face-to-face interaction as part of their normal employment duties (for example, where they are working from home).

“Businesses are expected to comply with the health and safety obligations, but they carry the risk of employees not wanting to follow directions, challenging it through unfair dismissal or through other proceedings, discrimination and... so, it’s fraught.”

Even if employers follow the Fair Work advice they will still bear the risk should an employee who is sacked or disciplined for refusing a vaccine chooses to sue.

Ms James named Fair Work guidance and public health orders, which are implemented by the states but sometimes coordinated through forums such as national cabinet where Canberra has a major voice, as two key measures that could help businesses.

The federal government has repeatedly emphasised that vaccination will generally be voluntary, but Industrial Relations Minister Michaelia Cash praised Fair Work’s advice.

“Vaccination is free, voluntary and an important way to ensure the Australian community and economy can emerge and recover from the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic,” Senator Cash said.

There are already orders in some states for high-risk workers – such as in aged care and quarantine – to be vaccinated. The tiers laid out by Fair Work are very similar to those unveiled by Prime Minister Scott Morrison on Friday.

Senator Cash said some workers in high-risk settings are required to be vaccinated to protect vulnerable people and the broader community. These are requirements set by state and territory public health orders.

Fair Work Ombudsman Sandra Parker said her agency would continue to update its advice as the pandemic evolves and said her team could give advice to workers and firms on 13 13 94.

Andrew McKellar, the new chief executive of the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, said companies wanted to offer vaccinations to staff but needed indemnities, which have been offered to doctors in case patients experience very rare side effects.

“Employers want to contribute to facilitating vaccinations, but we need similar indemnities,” Mr McKellar said.

Australian Council of Trade Unions secretary Sally McManus said the best way to reach vaccine targets was through co-operation, paid leave for staff and education campaigns.

“The option the Morrison government is pursuing instead is walking away from the issue and leaving individual employers to push for vaccine mandates,” Ms McManus said. “This is a recipe for division and resentment and will mean the vaccine rollout continues to lag behind the rest of the world.”

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

And here's the ABC's story on that topic:

Can employers make COVID-19 vaccination mandatory?

If you're an aged care worker, you have to get a COVID vaccine.

Vaccinations are also mandatory for most people working on the quarantine front line.

But what about everyone else? Can your boss make it mandatory for you to get immunised?

The Fair Work Ombudsman (FWO) has updated its guidelines for employers and their workers in an effort to make the legally "grey" area a little clearer.

The black and white cases of mandatory vaccinations
Some workers are required by law, mostly state-based public health orders, to be vaccinated against COVID-19.

It varies from state to state, but generally, aged care workers, quarantine workers, some transportation and airport workers and some health care workers fall into this category.

Some states already have these public health orders in place, others intend to do so by mid-September.

Prime Minister Scott Morrison insists there will not be an expansion of mandatory vaccinations beyond those specific roles.

"We do not have a mandatory vaccination policy in this country," he said last week.

"We do not have that. We are not proposing to have that. That is not changing."

Vaccination can also be mandatory if it has been agreed to as part of an enterprise bargaining agreement or other work contract. Some health and allied health professionals fall into this category.

The third category is where it becomes grey. Employers can "direct" employees to get vaccinated where it is "lawful and reasonable" to do so.

What does 'lawful and reasonable' mean?
Good question. Ultimately, only a court can answer that.

But the FWO is now offering some additional guidance.

Previously, it advised the "overwhelming majority of employers should assume they can't" mandate vaccination.

But the new advice states that an employer "may in certain circumstances be required to direct employees to get vaccinated" in order to comply with "work health and safety laws".

It has outlined four tiers of work to help assess where it might be '"awful and reasonable" to mandate vaccination.

1.Tier 1 work — employees interact with high-risk people (eg border control, hotel quarantine)
2.Tier 2 work — employees interact with vulnerable people (eg health care or aged care workers)
3.Tier 3 work — employees with public interaction (eg. retail workers at essential stores)
4.Tier 4 work — employees with minimal face-to-face interaction
Tiers 1 and 2 are likely to be covered by public health orders or workplace contracts.

The FWO says it's "unlikely to be reasonable" to make Tier 4 workers get vaccinated.

So where does that leave tier 3 workers?
If there is no community transmission of coronavirus for some time, mandating vaccination is "less likely to be reasonable" and vice versa.

But it must always be determined on a "case-by-case" basis.

"The coronavirus pandemic doesn't automatically make it reasonable for employers to direct employees to be vaccinated against the virus," the FWO advises.

And employers "must consider their obligations and responsibilities under anti-discrimination laws".

It's far from the clarity employers were hoping for.

"I think that's been left to individual businesses just to decide," said the Australian Retailers Association chief Paul Zahra.

"It hasn't been tested in the law and I don't think most businesses want to be facing litigation, potentially."

What say do workers have in all this?
Employers are required to work with their staff before changing policies around vaccinations.

The updated advice outlines that employers must:

Consult with employees and health and safety representatives
Give employees and health and safety representatives "reasonable opportunity to express their views"
Take into consideration anti-discrimination laws may apply
If they do make vaccinations mandatory, employers should cover workers' travel costs and give them paid time off for their vaccination appointments (if they fall in work hours).

In most circumstances, workers can not take sick leave to get a vaccination, but the advice from the FWO says there may be some exceptions.

However, workers can take paid sick leave if they're unwell after being vaccinated.

What if a worker doesn't want to get vaccinated?
If you refuse to get vaccinated and you're a tier 1 or 2 worker, employers can ask you why and ask for evidence of why you're refusing.

Disciplinary action can be taken, but the FWO notes "employers should not take disciplinary action lightly".

If you're vaccinated but one of your colleagues isn't, it's "unlikely" you can refuse to go to work. But only if it's "lawful and reasonable" to compel you to.

I'm still not clear...
In short: you can do it if it is "lawful and reasonable".

To figure out if it is "lawful and reasonable", you need to get legal advice.

That may be beyond the means and capacity of many employers, which is why business groups were hoping the federal government would offer legal protection.

"It is a failure of national leadership," said Labor frontbencher Catherine King, calling on the Prime Minister to work with businesses and unions to sort out rules for high-risk industries.

But with a philosophical objection to mandating medical procedures, the Coalition has no appetite for opening the door to mandatory vaccinations any further.

[slowsnake]

Employers can't force employees to do anything, not now anyway, sticking a needle in someone's arm against their will, especially if it's voluntary is assault.
And the ACTU is powerless, a paper tiger that has the roar of a mouse!

If ScMo had an ounce of what Bob Hawke had, then there would be no issue, boss of the ACTU in 1969 then Prime Minister in the 80's made him someone who commanded respect, if he said Australians get vaccinated then it's a done deal.

This government can't do that, Australians do not respect this government!.....and I don't blame them really.

Even the Fair Work Ombudsman has lost its power, workers need leaders not followers!


Cheers Billy.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

So tragic an unexpected. I heard one of them had aspirations of becoming a fighter pilot.

Out of interest, if we open up everything like you say we should, is there a number of dead people that you think becomes unacceptable in Australia in a year? Even if you think that no one will die, just if you turn out to be wrong, what is that acceptable number?

[zipping]

Originally Posted by tweeked

Out of interest, if we open up everything like you say we should, is there a number of dead people that you think becomes unacceptable in Australia in a year? Even if you think that no one will die, just if you turn out to be wrong, what is that acceptable number?

We are 18 months in, the question isn't how many will die, the question is how long can we keep doing this and hold back the flood of infections that are inevitable?

The common cold is a coronavirus, we all get those.

For how many years should we lock Australia up?

We have had 38k of infections only at this stage. Israel as fully vaxed as they are likely to get just had 6k infections a day with 10mil population but a low 16 deaths

Not all countries are the same but using Israel if Vax works to some degree, given they have 6.5k deaths, and we are 2.5x bigger, probably in the region of 10-12k deaths from/with the virus.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

answer my elephant in the room - did they die OF COVID or WITH COVID? There is a BIG difference

Stop playing with semantics - they are dead either way so there is no difference. The WHO system for determining CoD is being used by most countries so if you really want to understand rather than just troll for the fun of it then go and read their guidelines.