which car/model changed the face of performance for aussie cars?

[Falc'man]

I agree with Hulk.
As much as I'd hate to admit I think it was Holden's decision to import the LS motors which forced Ford into getting their act together. At least in modern times.
Yes, originally the XR GT started it all, but I think it was the LS motors which re-ignited the battle in most recent times.
The 5.6 Tickfords were awesome and did us very proud, and gave the LS' a hard time and some fat lips and black eyes. I'd take one of those over just about any car out there today. But, again, had it not been for the LS' I'm not sure Ford would have acted.

Now, most would agree, Ford/FPV have shown some initiative by moving the goalposts with Miami. HSV will need to react. And they will. They won't lie down to FPV, they've too much pride to lie down. You must recognise that this modern day rivalry where we're getting north of 450hp came about thanks to Holden/HSV being so dominant with VTII. Ford didn't look at their performance heritage of the 60's and 7-'s to give us what they have in the last 10-15 years and ultimately a blown 5.0 - they were reacting to Holden.

[WMD351]

This question isn't specifically for the year 1999 is it?

Anyway, I'm another for the WRX.

[RAPID_BA]

When I started the thread I didnt think about the wrx but it probably was the game changer

[SteveJH]

Unless HSV Actually want to spend money developing an engine themselves, the next jump up the tree would have to be either the LSA or LS7 wouldn't it?

[gtfpv]

the "XF" FALCON changed the face of performance for aussie cars .
it sent holden and ford off in completely different directions . we ended up with AN I6 , a holden with a nissan turbo in it . then i think the game veiw went over to the SS BROCK COMMODORE V8 .
SO XF and SS COMMODORE .

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

When I started the thread I didnt think about the wrx but it probably was the game changer

The WRX was just following the lead of the Audi Quattro, Lancia Delta Integrale & Escort Cosworth.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by tankclare

My opinions:

GTR-XU1 torana - pocket rocket that cleaned up at bathurst and proved you dont need a big motor to go well.

1967 XR GT - enough said.. V8 performance and the GT name

Phase IV GTHO - Pretty much a race car built for the road and even the government thought it was too much to handle lol

Valiant charger - Another 6 cylinder to stir the pot amongst the v8's.

BA XR6T - We already knew the falcon 6 was good but I think the turbo barra motor is what opened the eyes of everyone and made people respect the falcon 6 a whole lot more.

Holden injected 304 in VN-VS - As much as we hate them when they first came on the seen every man and his dog either had one or wanted one. They can be easily put into just about anything and reasonably easy to mod.

AU XR8 and T-series - Started putting ford v8s back on the map

+2...I reckon this pretty much sums it up for me...(Despite Russ saying my favourite car wasn't popular enough... )

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Unless HSV Actually want to spend money developing an engine themselves, the next jump up the tree would have to be either the LSA or LS7/LS9 wouldn't it?

And the LS5. They're still undecided.

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by galaxy xr8

and capable of doing a mid 14 for a basic Commy, when in actual fact the falcon was also capable of doing a mid 14..

i reckon hulk ba is sorta right... as he said a povo pack commo ls1 was doing mid 14s, but it basically took the best windsor powered xr8, and the limited build t3's to match it...

what was a base model au v8 running compared to the holden?

[RAPID_BA]

I wish both ford and holden still made bare bones models with big boofy v8s in them. Now you gotta spend at least $50k min to get performance.

A falcon xt with a BOSS 335 in it or a ve omega 6.2 ls3. Give us make your own pizza cars again

[nstg8a]

an xt with a 335 would probably still easily top 40k though.

the think the days of povo pack V8s are long gone.

[mik]

Originally Posted by russellw

It's clearly a passionate debate but let's get a handle on our understanding of what "changing the face" actually means and it certainly shouldn't be defined by the "Aussie V8" mantra as that slants the argument too far into a very narrow view of what a performance car is.

In the early years (1950-60's), performance cars for Australians were all imported and it was very much a case of choose your poison. Ignoring the exotics (as irrelevant); you could have a V8 powered American import that had an indecent amount of grunt (by the standards of the day); a British import (think Jag, Riley, Austin, Mini etc.) or one of the "funny" European cars like a Fiat, Alfa or (heaven forbid) even a Renault.

Alternatively - as long as you bought a Holden) there was a huge after-market selling all sorts of go faster bits that turned some grey and early red motor equipped Holdens into weapons. Still evil and ill handling (as was the American and Australian way of the era) but some were indecently quick in a straight line.

Much as we might like to opine that the XR GT changed the face, the reality is that it didn't. Yes it added (albeit after Valiant) a V8 engine into an Australian built car but it really still followed the American philosophy of big engine in a big body and who really wanted to go around corners anyway. "Mustang bred" was a good slogan for it - it shared the same lazy engine and indifferent dynamics as it's American cousin.

The XW / XY certainly improved on the performance potential but really didn't advance things much further in the vehicle dynamics sphere while at the same time continuing the American philosophy and becoming increasingly expensive. Before anyone jumps on the bandwagon (by the way) the HK/T/G Monaros were even more agricultural and simply leveraged existing 307/327/350 US engines that fit the same lazy, ill handling pattern that their Ford counterparts did.

There is certainly some argument to support the inclusion of the E38/E49 Chargers and the XU1 Torana. Both of these proved that you didn't need a slow revving lump of iron overhanging the front end to have a performance car (something the rev-heads of the era already knew with their 192 CID, dual carbed, 6 cylinder Holdens) but the Charger probably fails for being another (albeit improved) US design exercise and the XU1 never really made a major impression in terms of sales.

I'm going to hand the honour to the HQ Monaro although almost any 308 V8 equipped model of the time would equally qualify. An all Australian designed V8 engine that was cheap to build and which was produced in massive numbers relative to anything else in this country and which introduced decent performance at an affordable price point. The HQ also made significant gains in handling although it really wasn't until the HZ and RTS that this was properly fulfilled - sadly to coincide with the engine losing it's edge under the weight of ADR27A.

Also worthy of mention is the Datsun 240Z - they (and other variants with this gem of an engine) bought a sporty looking car into the reach of the masses and along with the preceding 1600 was quite an eye-opener in 4 cylinder performance.

You'd have to give an honourable mention to the Maxda RX3 as another car that introduced indecent performance in a small 4 door sedan that was so far removed from it's twin 1300 Capella that it was hard to believe they emanated from the same factory.

Likewise the 60's Lotus Cortinas and the early 70's Capri GT's (both offering decent handling and performance but hardly making selling in sufficient volumes to make an impression on the landscape) merit a mention and there are probably several others from the era that could get into a short list.

Cheers
Russ

we`ll agree to disagree Russ , the hq was ok, but...... a game changer? there may not have been a game had someone not thought of the XRGT, from memory the 308 HQ version was similar to the 1967 XRGT in performance.

[mik]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

I wish both ford and holden still made bare bones models with big boofy v8s in them. Now you gotta spend at least $50k min to get performance.

A falcon xt with a BOSS 335 in it or a ve omega 6.2 ls3. Give us make your own pizza cars again

actually the old cars are under rated in my book, they where a bit more honest,simpler, did`nt have all the power goodies and safety gear in them , and we know did`nt go around corners or brake all that good, hell they are`nt as fast as todays cars, ....but they felt fast, and for any one that`s ever done a bit of grand touring in an old muscle car up the highway, they actually did the job very well.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

And the LS5. They're still undecided.

their not getting the fuel economy as expected with the LSA and wont pass eruo 6 future proof .

the 5.5 was/is in trials in may this year, that's all i know so far.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by russellw

It's clearly a passionate debate but let's get a handle on our understanding of what "changing the face" actually means and it certainly shouldn't be defined by the "Aussie V8" mantra as that slants the argument too far into a very narrow view of what a performance car is.

In the early years (1950-60's), performance cars for Australians were all imported and it was very much a case of choose your poison. Ignoring the exotics (as irrelevant); you could have a V8 powered American import that had an indecent amount of grunt (by the standards of the day); a British import (think Jag, Riley, Austin, Mini etc.) or one of the "funny" European cars like a Fiat, Alfa or (heaven forbid) even a Renault.

Alternatively - as long as you bought a Holden) there was a huge after-market selling all sorts of go faster bits that turned some grey and early red motor equipped Holdens into weapons. Still evil and ill handling (as was the American and Australian way of the era) but some were indecently quick in a straight line.

Much as we might like to opine that the XR GT changed the face, the reality is that it didn't. Yes it added (albeit after Valiant) a V8 engine into an Australian built car but it really still followed the American philosophy of big engine in a big body and who really wanted to go around corners anyway. "Mustang bred" was a good slogan for it - it shared the same lazy engine and indifferent dynamics as it's American cousin.

The XW / XY certainly improved on the performance potential but really didn't advance things much further in the vehicle dynamics sphere while at the same time continuing the American philosophy and becoming increasingly expensive. Before anyone jumps on the bandwagon (by the way) the HK/T/G Monaros were even more agricultural and simply leveraged existing 307/327/350 US engines that fit the same lazy, ill handling pattern that their Ford counterparts did.

There is certainly some argument to support the inclusion of the E38/E49 Chargers and the XU1 Torana. Both of these proved that you didn't need a slow revving lump of iron overhanging the front end to have a performance car (something the rev-heads of the era already knew with their 192 CID, dual carbed, 6 cylinder Holdens) but the Charger probably fails for being another (albeit improved) US design exercise and the XU1 never really made a major impression in terms of sales.

I'm going to hand the honour to the HQ Monaro although almost any 308 V8 equipped model of the time would equally qualify. An all Australian designed V8 engine that was cheap to build and which was produced in massive numbers relative to anything else in this country and which introduced decent performance at an affordable price point. The HQ also made significant gains in handling although it really wasn't until the HZ and RTS that this was properly fulfilled - sadly to coincide with the engine losing it's edge under the weight of ADR27A.

Also worthy of mention is the Datsun 240Z - they (and other variants with this gem of an engine) bought a sporty looking car into the reach of the masses and along with the preceding 1600 was quite an eye-opener in 4 cylinder performance.

You'd have to give an honourable mention to the Maxda RX3 as another car that introduced indecent performance in a small 4 door sedan that was so far removed from it's twin 1300 Capella that it was hard to believe they emanated from the same factory.

Likewise the 60's Lotus Cortinas and the early 70's Capri GT's (both offering decent handling and performance but hardly making selling in sufficient volumes to make an impression on the landscape) merit a mention and there are probably several others from the era that could get into a short list.

Cheers
Russ

pssst, 808 was the RX3's twin. Capella was RX2's. Switch a few around, variations on opinion and this post pretty much sums up why there really was no GAME CHANGER as such, while at the same time pretty much says if there was ONE, then it was the XRGT, despite that conclusion not being Russ's intention.

The XRGT demonstrates at least a thinking that was along the lines of, 'enough ****ing around lets get on with it' which led on to a history that sustained Ford for decades. The idea was to start something in Aus that until that time wasnt being done here, albeit already done elsewhere but then again hot 6/4's was also already being done elsewhere. Companies have been at this since the the automobile was invented, including super charged 4 bangers and straight 8's to name but two way back in the 1920's, so any idea that it was already being done elsewhere isnt really a valid argument. Turbos and blowers have been around for a long time.

[ILLaViTaR]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

I'm not saying the ls1 is unbeatable. I'm saying that it was first to lift the bar of performance, the windsor in its final form was probably a fair rival but that's not the point. If the ls1 didn't come out swinging with 220kw back in 99 against a meek 185kw xr8 and also had mid 14 quarters.

How can you dispute this? The windsor needed 4 cracks at the ls1 to be close to being compeitive (185kw, 200kw, 220kw and 250kw). Then they moved to the boss to take up the fight. The ls1 caused ford to lift their game from 185kw to 260kw is 3 years. Before that ford lifted the windsor from 165kw to 185kw in 8 years. That's a game changer

I'm having garlic prawns in my mint xr8 for dinner, decision made

Wow that is the point lol. We're talking about power not progress, or how many efforts it took from a motor that's been upgraded and peaked out after decades of refinement compared to a motor of much newer generation. All this irrelevant negativity tells me you're trolling.
Yes it lifted the bar in the 90's yet you say it's the first to lift the bar on performance ?? That's where you don't make sense, there are older motors that put out more power, yes it did make ford lift their game in the 90's no one's denying that, they're denying it wasn't the first, that there were motors from the previous gen that put out more power
Were you aware the 351 of the previous generation put out more power than any of the V8's of the next generation/90's

Sounds to me that you're trying to generalise 2 different references in time lol.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

...
Were you aware the 351 of the previous generation put out more power than any of the V8's of the next generation/90's

Sounds to me that you're trying to generalise 2 different references in time lol.

What was it, 190kw from the 2v Clevo, and over 200 (240 I think) from the 4v in the early 70's? Same era Windsors had similar figures. Although they suffocated the later Clevos, 150 or something in them.

The P3 was alleged to have as much as 380hp (sold as having 300 AFAIK), Ill let someone else convert that into killerwasps.

[BLKWDW]

This one hasnt been mentioned and to me well at least in the modern era it would be the HSV coupe 4. AWD with i think 260-270kw. It wasnt perfect buy any means and didnt sell well but it showed what holden/ford could do with some thought and raised a few eybrows with the awd import guys. This was different and wasnt just a car with an engine put in it took some engineering.

[ELGT4me]

Nobody think the EB XR6 worth a mention? It sold like hotcakes, was Tickfords first venture as a Aussie Ford Performance car, I think it spanked most of the local V8's down the quarter. It also proved performance was not limited to a V8. From this car Tickford spread it's wings. I wish I still had my Marine Blue 5 speed, what a fantastic car it was.

[Saraco]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

The heads where on the Boss 302 FIRST !!!

They were, yes, but......they were ALWAYS conceived as Cleveland heads. (Remember, engine developement runs years in advance, from when the engine, is officially released to the public.) Ford dropped them on the Windsor style shortblock, when the Tunnel Port heads(There was also some contrerversy, about the legality of the T.P. heads, since they were not available on a production car, they were an over the counter purchase.) they were using, at the time, were not competitive against against the Chevrolet Z/28 Camaro, in Trans-Am racing.

[302 XC]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

I wish both ford and holden still made bare bones models with big boofy v8s in them.

I doubt itll ever happen
Imagine paying 30-40K and beyond for a povo pack with a big V8
No air,steer,windows,vinyl seats,ect, but a thumpy V8
It would be a very limited market nowadays
People gotta have the luxuries

Then perhaps,they offer the warranty as some yank iron did in the 60s

"This car is sold for racing purposes only,so no factory warranty applies,sold as is"
Would you buy a new car and pay a good amount and wear a warranty like that ???
Well those in the 60s who wanted bare bone,high HP cars had to


I see alot of KW figures being thrown around
Are we after a performance car as an overall picture
Or,worried about how much HP/KW it puts out ???
We all know the 70s factory power figures were fiddled to appease those that needed appeasing
Insurance companies,general public ect

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

I see alot of KW figures being thrown around
Are we after a performance car as an overall picture
Or,worried about how much HP/KW it puts out ???
We all know the 70s factory power figures were fiddled to appease those that needed appeasing
Insurance companies,general public ect

In my case not really, but since the OP has held on to a fascination with killerwasps, I thought the numbers raised by the illavitar were worth a mention.

I think the numbers in those days (70's) were barebones motors and todays are stated with all ancillaries too.

[JG34JA]

In the beginning, cars were imported and Mini's won lots of races. Early Holdens were extensively modified and hotted up for rally/track/drags.

XR GT heralded "game on" for the first muscle era.

GTRXU1/Pacer/Charger showed a 6 cylinder undercurrent could match the V8's.

Prima Facie speed limits and expensive air travel also permitted the Great Aussie Road Car - this type of performance was the ability to cruise safely, comfortably and legally at very high speeds interstate, with reasonable economy. Think an XY GS 302 doing 80-90mph between Sydney and Melbourne at 13.5L/100km, and the journalist feeling fresh when he got there. The direct link to Bathurst, where designs you could buy were 'torture tested', was undeniable, and part of the charm. To me, this is Australian Performance.

Then the supercar scare stopped the first muscle era, and the Phase III became the yardstick to measure up to for eternity. The era of racing showroom products ceased, and Australians were denied the ability to buy what was raced. Massive game changer. (Of course, today there is the Bathurst 12 hour...shh!) This one journalism/legislative change had more of an impact on the face of Australian performance than any one car, and in a very perverse way: the Phase III's formula of big V8 RWD became the apotheosis of what an Australian performance car is. I wonder if showroom racing had continued, if the designs would have further evolved...? At the same time, speed limits were introduced as a reaction to the 1973 oil shock. The golden era was over.

Brock's V8's kept the spirit alive when Ford stopped making them in the 80's.

Early 90's - we saw the EBII XR6 explode in the family market, the Suby WRX in AWD/turbo, and the Skyline GTR's take out Bathurst all within a year or two! This changed the face of performance in Australia forever: enthusiasts could well and truly form 'splinter' groups. Interestingly, this was about 20 years after the 'supercar scare'.

LS1 crate motor upped the ante, did not really 'change the face' of a formula that had been in place since (before) 1967.

BA XR6 turbo bridged the gap between V8's and the turbo/AWD scene,

Turbo Territory combined this performance with an AWD SUV, V8 Adventra did similarly. Muscle and practicality!

Lately, the rise of Hot Hatches (like in the 60's) has been an influence.


Those are the changes in performance as I see them. As for the HQ taking out the win, no way! I lived with the horrid handling, way too heavy steering - that is the antithesis of performance!

[castellan]

Valiant RV1 & SV1 were fast for their day.
But the XR GT was the first performance drivers car.
The XW GT-HO is the first weapon that really changed the face of what performance was all about.
The Torana XU-1 were just junk try driving that rubbish on the highway at 200 KM/H

[fordman302]

XR GT, the question was silly to start with, watch a few history video's, sorry i mean dvd's, they were still video's when i first discovered what the gt meant for this country, lets not bag holden out in this great race, at the end of the day ford didnt make a decent car holden would have had nothing to strive to and the great v8 war wouldnt be like anything like we know it

[gtxb67]

has anything actually changed the face of performance. it has been gradual evolution since the first car. same cars made bigger gains than others, but they were still the same basic car as the one they replaced

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

has anything actually changed the face of performance. it has been gradual evolution since the first car. same cars made bigger gains than others, but they were still the same basic car as the one they replaced

thats why i suggested the XF FALCON .

[RAPID_BA]

How is the xf falcon a game changer? Introduction of unleaded and cat converters? That carby 4.1 litre and no v8s?

[Gobes32]

My two cents worth, I am too young to remember anything prior from say EB/VN, but when I was 16 in 1999, and Holden released the LS1, it was all myself and my mates talked about. And tho this day, out of my five closest friends, 3 of them have LS powered Commodores.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

How is the xf falcon a game changer? Introduction of unleaded and cat converters? That carby 4.1 litre and no v8s?

Actually it was the first electronic fuel injected Falcon and that is the technology that has allowed the huge power and torque capabilities of the current era.....