Commodore thrashes Falcon in October sales

[Fordoldie]

Originally Posted by red_hotxr6

Sounds like you own, drive, and work for holden, your biggest fans must be todd and rick kelly. You know i think holden has their own web site maybe you peddle your nonsene to them, they would eat it up.And please i went to all the trouble of putting my picture up, girl not a guy.MATE..

Ha ha LOL if we all went by the picture shown on someone's avatar that would be extremely misleading! No offense of course
He is entitled to support the brand he owns/drives just like you are. It doesnt mean he sleeps with one of the Kelly family.
He is also right in that VE offers more than BFII. So it should being "new".
Its all subjective and when the Falcon/Orion is released in 2008 it may change again

[aualright]

Originally Posted by monaroCountry

Australians tend to look down on themselves in some situations...

Ahhh - the old cultural cringe. What do you expect from a country that still calls the Queen of England the boss of Australia or puts Euro-style number plates on their cars (as in NSW).

I also wish we had more pride in ourselves...we are extremely lucky (or at least I am) to have highly appointed, large rear wheel sedans like the Commodore and Falcon available.

And if you want to compare how they have evolved to become such good value for money, check this out:

In 1982 an XE Falcon S retailed at around $14000 but was essentially a GL with a stripe, driving lights and 15inch 12-slot imitations....oh yeah and a tacho.

In 1986 an XF Falcon S retailed at around $20000 - same appointments as the XE.

20 years later, the comparable XR6 sits at around $40000. Comparable in terms of where it sits in the Falcon range, but how far has the quality, gadgetry, power, fuel efficiency, safety features, colour selection, transmission, seating, road noise, etc come?

WE HAVE NEVER HAD IT SO GOOD...we should appreciate what we can build and DESIGN, support Aussie jobs and lose that cringe.

****

[GXL078]

And the XE Falcon won an Australian Design Award for it's coil spring rear end!

[aualright]

Originally Posted by xcgxl

And the XE Falcon won an Australian Design Award for it's coil spring rear end!

The XF won one as well....but not sure what for.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by xcgxl

BOTH ARE EQUALLY AS CRAP AS EACH OTHER!! Inferior, Aussie made, she'll be right mate, CRAP!!

So what do you drive then?

If you're going to come here and insult the majority of the members by posting stupid unsubstantiated generalisations then prepare to walk in the wilderness with GMHdriver. I respectfully submit that you read your quoted comment and ask yourself what outcomes you hoped to achieve by typing such bile.
Australia is a world leader in technologyand world firsts such as:

* The bionic ear, a device that enables some deaf children to hear.
* Flexible wine casks... the bag in the box.
* The boomerang. Ancient weapon of the aboriginies. Other cultures have throwing sticks but none came back to the thrower if it missed the target.
* The Notepad. In the whole history of paper, it had been sold and used in single sheets until in 1902 JA Birchall thought it would be a good idea to stack a pile of half sheets together, back it with cardboard and glue one end.
Making the world's first notepad.
* The Electric Drill was the invention of Arthur James Arnot, who patented it in 1889.
* Postage stamps. The world's first pre paid postage system was introduced at Sydney in 1838.
* The world's first refrigeration plant was an Australian invention of 1858.
* To our collective shame, the worlds first bathing beauty contest was held in Australia in 1920.
* The famous "black box" flight recorder for recording aeroplane movements was invented in Australia in 1958.
* Also in 1958 the worlds first regular 'round the world' airline service was begun.
* The inflatable aircraft escape slide, which becomes a raft if the aeroplane ditches in water was an Australian invention of 1965.
* The Automatic letter sorting machine - 1930
* Two stroke lawn mower.
* The rotary hoist washing line.
* Lithium as a treatment for manic depression.
* Latex gloves 1945
* Cervical Cancer treatment, killing off the virus that causes the cancer a world first.
* Worlds first artificial heart with no moving parts

Just some of the so called "She'll be right mate" as you so succinctly put it inventions. We are also the worlds powerhouse for medical research. Hardly the efforts of a country who produces crap, or maybe you just love the attention and notoriety given to the forums biggest idiot.

[new2ford]

Also Mitchell thrust block - significant for marine propulsion.

But re coil springs in theFalcon wasn't that Rover first (then Range Rover). I thought Ford's one was the McPherson strut? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[MoreHPformyXR6]

Originally Posted by SS beast

As the Commodore has out-sold and out-performed the Falcon for the last 10 years

(If we keep the VE aside for a second)
You cant honestly believe that the VZ is a better car than the BA. Yes Commodore outsells Falcon does that make it the better car? I suggest you need to look at more than just a popularity contest. The BA out performs the VZ in comfort performance eg Exectutive vs XT better suspension better drive etc.

[ltd]

Don't know about the recoil spring.
In terms of marine, some guy from perth came up with the orbital engine that is now used by mercury. He tried to pitch it at the big 4 car manufacturers and they ended up buying rights to the intellectual property.

On the aviation side of things, we have designed and manufacture things like the winglets on a 747-400 series, control surfaces for airbus and boeing, composites and glare for nasa; the list goes on.
Australian crap? Don't think so.
Australia only lost a number of big companies in the 90's due to ridiculous tax laws both state and federal, but the tide is shifting and companies are investing back in good old oz. In the USA, people want our hot fords, as their hero cars don't live up to the hype. A GT-P or Typhoon on sale inthe USA would absolutely kill it, especially when they could get said cars for between 35-45K US. When I was in the US recently around michigan I saw a typhoon being driven in LHD, hopefully that is a sign of things to come.

[Wally]

freestyle swimming
scram jet
penicillan development
aspro (asprin)
teleprinter
roller door
combine harvestor
cement trucks
totalisator
stump jump plow
photocopier
differential gears
thrust bearing
the ute
permaculture
rack and pinion variable steering
shepherd castors
hollerith cards

[Hawk]

Okay, everyone take a deep breath. Hold it. Hold it. Now exhale. Good. Breathe in again. Hold it. Hold it. Now exhale.

It is fine to have pride in the car maker you love, but constructive comments are much more important for a civilised forum environment, not to mention it may actually give credibility to what you say (not crudability). The only thing that can be gained by outlandish comments without any evidence/information supporting them is the title of 'troll'...and from what I see there are plenty of them in this conversation.

The VE is bloody well engineered. So is the BF. The comparisons by motoring journalists and enthusiasts alike have praised both cars for what they offer and the level of quality engineering that has gone into them. I have not driven a VE, so I can only go by what I read from credible sources as to its quality and they give it thumbs up.

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

Ha ha LOL if we all went by the picture shown on someone's avatar that would be extremely misleading! No offense of course

Hmmm....look at mine for instance!!!!

[ltd]

^^
Before going off half cocked and claiming to be the voice of reason I'd suggest you outline whom you are referring to. I have in no way referred to ford as superior in this post so don't be so presumptuous as to assume that I have demonstrated any passion for any car maker I love. Furthermore, constructive arguments are valid however calling everything Australian crap will only result in raising the ire of many members here. I have not defended any particular brand; I have defended Australian made whilst forcing some sheepish little jerk wad to rethink his post lambasting everything Australian. If you derive from that some kind of sycophantic allegiance to a brand then you may be the one that needs to breathe in, hold it, then exhale.

As for "crudability", again I'm unsure as to whom you are referring to so I'll leave that for you to clarify.

[red_hotxr6]

Originally Posted by MoreHPformyXR6

(If we keep the VE aside for a second)
You cant honestly believe that the VZ is a better car than the BA. Yes Commodore outsells Falcon does that make it the better car? I suggest you need to look at more than just a popularity contest. The BA out performs the VZ in comfort performance eg Exectutive vs XT better suspension better drive etc.

The ve was brought up so lets stay here for a bit,1300 of them recalled for the fuel lines and now roughfly 13,000 to be recalled to fix the rear seatbelts lets see what else happens in the next few months, but i suppose all those VE owners are quite happy with their cars.I wonder how many of them will buy a holden the next time around, or maybe they will keep their blinkers on.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by SS beast

Sorry mate, but you might have to pull your head out of the sand to pick up the change from your 2 cents worth!!!
No-one can seriuosly believe the current Falcon range is any match for the VE as an overall package. All car designs are compromised to meet certain targets. For example; more strength = more weight = more power required = less economy. We don't have a car capable of meeting every design target, and consumer needs or there would only be one model car built in the world, by several different manufacturers perhaps. All cars have their good and bad points, it's just that at the moment the VE has more good points than the BFII...........simple. This may change when the new Falcon is released in a couple of years.....who knows? As the Commodore has out-sold and out-performed the Falcon for the last 10 years, I doubt the new Falcon will be good enough to better the Commodore.

Is that why Wheels gave both of them 4 stars, and said it all comes down to price which one is the better buy. The Falcon wins on 6 cylinder engines and drivetrain, plus fuel economy, so remove those blinkers. The only Holden models that can outdo the equivalent Ford model is the V8 models. Pretty damn good for a car based on a 9 year old platform that can hold it head against a brand spanker that cost a billion dollars.
If the current Falcon can match the VE then the Orion will smash it to pieces. Game over.

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by ltd

^^
Before going off half cocked and claiming to be the voice of reason I'd suggest you outline whom you are referring to. I have in no way referred to ford as superior in this post so don't be so presumptuous as to assume that I have demonstrated any passion for any car maker I love. Furthermore, constructive arguments are valid however calling everything Australian crap will only result in raising the ire of many members here. I have not defended any particular brand; I have defended Australian made whilst forcing some sheepish little jerk wad to rethink his post lambasting everything Australian. If you derive from that some kind of sycophantic allegiance to a brand then you may be the one that needs to breathe in, hold it, then exhale.

As for "crudability", again I'm unsure as to whom you are referring to so I'll leave that for you to clarify.

I was not having a go at you ltd. Rest assured of that.

I was also not claiming to be a voice of reason, I was just sensing that some people were getting worked up over the issue which, when coupled with the impersonal language of the internet, can lead to attacks that were not initially intended. It can also degrade passionate conversation.

The post by xcgxl was the most obvious example of someone producing one half of an argument that in no way contributed constructively to the conversation. I was not saying that calling something Australian crap was in anyway a helpful post, in fact it was quite obviously a troll aimed at raising the ire of members. I think the others who have not opened their eyes and focused on one brand, rather than crediting others where it is due, are equally as obvious.

Furthermore I was not suggesting someone has to have pride in one single brand, and to claim I have a sycophantic allegiance is downright insulting. I too have pride in Australian built cars, I also marvel at what other carmakers produce. If this makes me in anyway cynical towards what one brand can produce then sue me.

As for the crudability comment, I was injecting a bit of Dilbert humour, but was again referring to xcgxl.

[ltd]

Please accept my humble apologies then.
No excuse for it but I was getting a little tired so again, apologies.

[Hawk]

Nah don't worry about it. I haven't had a good rant in a while. :

[McobraR]

Anyone think that falcon sales will go under 2000 sales a month before the Orion arrives? it already went under 3000 last month. I dont know, i just think that holding Orion back was a very bad idea. Yes i know u can say that the BA was basically a new model as the reason why its kinda ok to launch it late, but holden also did a major facelift (VY), and while it wasnt re-engineered as much, it still looked different and the public perceived it as 'new' back then.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Is that why Wheels gave both of them 4 stars, and said it all comes down to price which one is the better buy. The Falcon wins on 6 cylinder engines and drivetrain, plus fuel economy, so remove those blinkers. The only Holden models that can outdo the equivalent Ford model is the V8 models. Pretty damn good for a car based on a 9 year old platform that can hold it head against a brand spanker that cost a billion dollars.
If the current Falcon can match the VE then the Orion will smash it to pieces. Game over.

I got something too ad on this 9 year old platform then.
I once said that if you ad the layout for the AU and BA it comes too more then a billion dollar car. I of course i was abused. But it's still true and it is right now still the truth, Ad the money spent on the AU and ad the money spent on the BA and what do you have?? A 1.3 billion dollar car. And that's not adding the money spent on the BF.
So i'm interested in this does anyone else claim it too be a 9 year old platform and if yes then do they also take it that this car is worth more then it cost too build the VE.

[ltd]

^^

The VE though has 1 billion spent on the first model of the platform. There will probably be an additional 8 or 9 model updates throughout the VE platforms life and as such, you will find each update costs in the vicinity of 150-300 million dollars for minor upgrades, 300-500 million for an update like AU to BA. That would then add the VE up to the 3.4 -4 billion dollar baby. I think that's what they roasted you about.

[DougM]

Originally Posted by Slick_Aussie

I got something too ad on this 9 year old platform then.
I once said that if you ad the layout for the AU and BA it comes too more then a billion dollar car. I of course i was abused. But it's still true and it is right now still the truth, Ad the money spent on the AU and ad the money spent on the BA and what do you have?? A 1.3 billion dollar car. And that's not adding the money spent on the BF.
So i'm interested in this does anyone else claim it too be a 9 year old platform and if yes then do they also take it that this car is worth more then it cost too build the VE.

With that thinking, do we add the cost of the VT11,VX,VY,VZ and VE over the same lifespan?????

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by ltd

^^

The VE though has 1 billion spent on the first model of the platform. There will probably be an additional 8 or 9 model updates throughout the VE platforms life and as such, you will find each update costs in the vicinity of 150-300 million dollars for minor upgrades, 300-500 million for an update like AU to BA. That would then add the VE up to the 3.4 -4 billion dollar baby. I think that's what they roasted you about.

I thought your mathematical skills were much better then that.
I doubt you will see many updates as it's been said the VE looks like it might only have a 6 year life span.
I forgot too count the earlier updates after AU1.
Also they spent 175mill (could be more or less) on the VY update.
They roasted me because AU and BA can't be added together.

But half of the VE was spent on the BA too fix most of the issues some had with the AU. So they added some future gear too overcome it, Fix it short term but hold the new model off maybe a year or more. But on the good side that makes the orion better tested because much of the drivetrain suspension meant for it is now in the BA-BF it's seasoned and tested.

Originally Posted by DougM

With that thinking, do we add the cost of the VT11,VX,VY,VZ and VE over the same lifespan?????

Gee is the VE on the VT platform

[DougM]

Of course the VE is not the same.......The BA may share the basic floorpan with the AU but it is a completely different car!!! I have owned both....Suspension was redesigned as were all engines. Interior completely changed, The chassis was substantially changed to suit new drivetrain and improve stiffness. Yes they do share the doors...Holden has spent $1billion to catch up to the BA and move ahead a little.....The sixes are still no match for the falcon...The 6.0 does have great performance true,but both HSV and Holden are just fitting crate engines from the U.S. No development dollars there by holden!!!! These engines are the best GM units available in the US other than the C6 Corvette...Holdens fans must be greatful That Holden hasn't skimped there.....We should all be greatful really as both camps have IMHO some of the best performance(affordable) cars in the world. Good power but importantly great handling and brakes too!!!

[ltd]

^^
My numbers are on a worst case scenario only.
Before further espousal of who spent what and who wasted money you'd need to get official figures from both companies and add them together. I'd agree that you can add the BA to the AU platform, as the BA is an evolution of the AU as opposed to a completely new car. For example, the doors of a BF fit an AU, so there is alot of commonality there.
As for Holden, you can add everything from the VN-VSIII, VT-VZII (even though the chassis on VN and VT was the same.
Ford had EA-EL, AU-BF2.
I don't see why you can't add the two together.
As for the 6 year lifespan of the VE, that is unlikely especially when they have to recoup over a billion dollars development costs on the first car from the VE platform. There will be some major changes in its lifespan but the VE chassis will be around in one form or another for at least 9 years. This is standard business practice and quite frankly, changing the platform in 6 years would only reduce the profitability of every car sold using that platform. Holden would not do that, and neither would any other car maker. You'd probably also find that GM wouldn't let holden do that either.

[Fordoldie]

Originally Posted by ltd

^^
As for the 6 year lifespan of the VE, that is unlikely especially when they have to recoup over a billion dollars development costs on the first car from the VE platform. There will be some major changes in its lifespan but the VE chassis will be around in one form or another for at least 9 years. This is standard business practice and quite frankly, changing the platform in 6 years would only reduce the profitability of every car sold using that platform. Holden would not do that, and neither would any other car maker. You'd probably also find that GM wouldn't let holden do that either.

What you may find however is the platform for VE is also the platform for many other cars in the GM family so the initial cost is maybe recouped outside the Commodore model? I remember being told at a Fleet launch that the car would have about a 6 year life span but dont recall whether it was the "platform" or just VE/VF etc. The current chassis set-up certainly has the goods to go that far or further so they will only be changing body styles and Eng/trans combos with some serious kit lined up for their V6 I'm told

[chuckthrillseek]

Originally Posted by red_hotxr6

I still prefer ford quality over holden crap any day of the week.That,s why we own three.Personally i think those holden figures are "inflated".

your not wrong there, all there lease cars that were waiting to be delivered, which by the way was way over a 100 were registered before the end of the month even though they might sit in the yard for up to 3 months before they get delivered to the workers that lease them

we were just told "register every car in the yard" mind you if ford lease cars to there workers i guess they would do the same

cheers chuck

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by DougM

Of course the VE is not the same.......The BA may share the basic floorpan with the AU but it is a completely different car!!! I have owned both....Suspension was redesigned as were all engines. Interior completely changed, The chassis was substantially changed to suit new drivetrain and improve stiffness. Yes they do share the doors...Holden has spent $1billion to catch up to the BA and move ahead a little.....The sixes are still no match for the falcon...The 6.0 does have great performance true,but both HSV and Holden are just fitting crate engines from the U.S. No development dollars there by holden!!!! These engines are the best GM units available in the US other than the C6 Corvette...Holdens fans must be greatful That Holden hasn't skimped there.....We should all be greatful really as both camps have IMHO some of the best performance(affordable) cars in the world. Good power but importantly great handling and brakes too!!!

If i said the VS was a completely different car too the VN would you agree?
"Catch up" Ignore tom gorman and that thing that runs holden, Look in deep, The only thing that everyone says keeps the cars close is the drivetrain in the 6's. When it comes too the V6 i still don't know what many have too complain about, It's not the same loud sounding engine from the VZ, It's been given a go over too keep the noise down, It's got good power and moves fairly qwick. The 5 speed tranny is a good shifter the 6 speed might have tall gear issues.
But i think more go for the 6 speed still. It's decant on fuel it's better then it was and it's much heavier then the VZ, If it was the same weight as the VZ it might have superb economy. Even if holden use crate engine there will always be development money spent there.
You could be cruel and say the BA was the catch up car also, It really came ahead too leave the AU in the past.

Aussies **** on the rest i think when it comes too affordable performance cars.

Originally Posted by ltd

^^
My numbers are on a worst case scenario only.
Before further espousal of who spent what and who wasted money you'd need to get official figures from both companies and add them together. I'd agree that you can add the BA to the AU platform, as the BA is an evolution of the AU as opposed to a completely new car. For example, the doors of a BF fit an AU, so there is alot of commonality there.
As for Holden, you can add everything from the VN-VSIII, VT-VZII (even though the chassis on VN and VT was the same.
Ford had EA-EL, AU-BF2.
I don't see why you can't add the two together.
As for the 6 year lifespan of the VE, that is unlikely especially when they have to recoup over a billion dollars development costs on the first car from the VE platform. There will be some major changes in its lifespan but the VE chassis will be around in one form or another for at least 9 years. This is standard business practice and quite frankly, changing the platform in 6 years would only reduce the profitability of every car sold using that platform. Holden would not do that, and neither would any other car maker. You'd probably also find that GM wouldn't let holden do that either.

You would be shocked at how hard it is too fit VS parts on a VP.
Say if you wanted a VS front, Harder then you think they sit higher and the bumper is closer too the grill, The ecotec engine was a taller motor and needed more room, A Ecotec engine only just fits under a VN-VP bonnet, But them guards theres the reinforcements that need too be changed and the bonnet hinges need moving it's more a pain then super hard too do. You got the money it's done easy. The rear is the hard part which is why you see there older models doing the VS front and leave the rear the same.
Don't worry i have asked all these questions of late. I'm having a VP Calais dash fitted and as easy as it seems it's a auto elec job too rewire and ad a third plug for the digital lower readout.
I spoke too a friend from a wreckers about a IRS system for me, He did this --> :
But your right parts are made across the board, My model can take many VS parts, But it's the little ones that look easy too swap that are the hardest. Like head light switch VN-VP are so different that if VN switch is fitted too a VP it won't light the dash up. And they look the same and they both fit.

On the VE live span i got it slightly wrong as Fordoldie pointed out rightly, It seem they will do a body change and go along with the same IRS type set-up, Maybe cut down the series changes and change the body more.
Maybe like the new camry looks different but look harder and you see some of the old camry in it. Hard too pick with it's higher waistline.

[LilMissDrift]

Originally Posted by Slick_Aussie

You would be shocked at how hard it is too fit VS parts on a VP.
Say if you wanted a VS front, Harder then you think they sit higher and the bumper is closer too the grill, The ecotec engine was a taller motor and needed more room, A Ecotec engine only just fits under a VN-VP bonnet, But them guards theres the reinforcements that need too be changed and the bonnet hinges need moving it's more a pain then super hard too do. You got the money it's done easy. The rear is the hard part which is why you see there older models doing the VS front and leave the rear the same.
Don't worry i have asked all these questions of late. I'm having a VP Calais dash fitted and as easy as it seems it's a auto elec job too rewire and ad a third plug for the digital lower readout.

Didnt the VN-VP-VR Have the same motor, then they revised the VR- thus becoming the VS with a new motor, and slight alterations to the Exterior bodywork, and revised the interior?
My opinions they're all much in much ,the auto gearboxes are all dodgy and pronound to overheating. LOL... both my VR(3.8L) & VN(5.0L) had the gearbox replaced regularly.. LOL... The Vr had 4 in a year... HMMMM...

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by LilMissDrift

Didnt the VN-VP-VR Have the same motor, then they revised the VR- thus becoming the VS with a new motor, and slight alterations to the Exterior bodywork, and revised the interior?
My opinions they're all much in much ,the auto gearboxes are all dodgy and pronound to overheating. LOL... both my VR(3.8L) & VN(5.0L) had the gearbox replaced regularly.. LOL... The Vr had 4 in a year... HMMMM...

VN was the old duck first ginny pig, REvised for both the VP and VR. Ecotec still similar with internal upgrades and a new fuel injection system.
The dash changed but the clusters still under it were maybe interchangeable too a point, The centre console stayed the same door trims minor tweaks, The front and the rear exterior is a bit of a AU 2 BA job, Front sits higher and so does the rear. VR was the first time they went away from the straight cut rear line above the wheel. But they added IRS too more models in the VS range, You could get it on all models now. They stuck some ecotec engines into VR's and some IRS's into VP's maybe as testing?.
I changed my tranny this year after just tipping 300,000km first one

[05MkIIFutura]

Originally Posted by MoreHPformyXR6

(If we keep the VE aside for a second)
Yes Commodore outsells Falcon does that make it the better car? I suggest you need to look at more than just a popularity contest.

The guys over in the Terri forum on this site think it is a good enough reason. Someone is wrong, but who!!!

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

What you may find however is the platform for VE is also the platform for many other cars in the GM family so the initial cost is maybe recouped outside the Commodore model? I remember being told at a Fleet launch that the car would have about a 6 year life span but dont recall whether it was the "platform" or just VE/VF etc. The current chassis set-up certainly has the goods to go that far or further so they will only be changing body styles and Eng/trans combos with some serious kit lined up for their V6 I'm told

Excellent point. Forgot about the whole global GM thing there. Don't they also have the "global V6"?