Still a Street Car the AFF definition.

[Polyal]

Dan are you saying the cage issue just because of WA law? Fair enough as you live there but how can adding a safety device suddenly turn your 500+kw monster into a pure track car? Thats madness.

Do the officials think that by doing so your going to automatically start racing around the streets any different than before?

I dont understand the logic in that one.

[CFOUR]

Originally Posted by prasac

i know people who's car has a roll cage but it's never done a pass down the quarter.

those people are
1)Driving cars made of paper requiring a cage for stability
2)Cowards
3)Posers
4)Stupid
Possibily a combination of all four.

Edit: Or circuit racers/rally drivers

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by CFOUR

those people are
1)Driving cars made of paper requiring a cage for stability
2)Cowards
3)Posers
4)Stupid
Possibily a combination of all four

or they don't care what any other insignificant person thinks about them

it is lucky there were people like that back in the 50's and even earlier - otherwise there would have been no hot rodding and we would not have a forum to post in

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Dan are you saying the cage issue just because of WA law? Fair enough as you live there but how can adding a safety device suddenly turn your 500+kw monster into a pure track car? Thats madness.

Do the officials think that by doing so your going to automatically start racing around the streets any different than before?

I dont understand the logic in that one.

Not just for that, If I was going to do a cage it would have to actually work and not just be there to make motorsport officials happy..... this would mean that the intrusivness of the cage would stop it resembling a 4 door 5 seat street car and render it a 4 door two seat race vehicle....... it would be done to the point where chassis stiffness benefitted which means the dash gets cut in the corners, you have to climb over the sidebar, the seat dosent recline much etc...... how is that still a dinkum street car?.... When Jon Bailey came over last time he sat in the car with me and the H-Bomb and there was no fear of banging heads on roll bars (padded or not they hurt) or issues entering and exiting the car.

As for the police outlook on cages, funny you mention that as I was just out in the AU sorting an ignition fault with these new style plugs im running and I got pulled up for noise. Police went over the car, checked my Engineering report, sound test report and permit (Thanks mr Terry Southam!) and when I told them I was diagnosing an ignition fault for the drags, the officer SPECIFICALLY made mention of cars they pull up "testing" for drags that have cages that are immaculate but dont comply to WA regs.... got to admit they were great about it as I was in bare feet with my passenger seat unbolted (MSD lives under there) and they could have done me for that and tread depth...... right on the indicators atm! Left them smiling with a voucher in my hand for blowing 000 on the breatho

Daniel

[Elks]

Originally Posted by CAT600

an RTA certificate and legal underpinnings dosent make it a legit street car.... to give a good example there is a guy over here in WA with a supercharged Clubsport with a full cage, race suspension worthy of running in top level Sports Sedan, has magnesium rims on slicks, full Motec, trans and diff coolers painted up in race livery and he has the car registered as a "Golf Buggy"....... he cannot be impinged for driving it on the road he has fought it and won before.... its legal but its a freaking joke.

Daniel

Reminds me of an A-Model roadster pick-up built by Norm Longfeild some years back.

It was bright red, fenderless, with big drag slicks on the rear, powered by a wild a blown Hemi that was mounted in the tray, it could pull wheelies on demand. But the kicker was, it was registered as a Tractor..

[Road Games]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Not just for that, If I was going to do a cage it would have to actually work and not just be there to make motorsport officials happy..... this would mean that the intrusivness of the cage would stop it resembling a 4 door 5 seat street car and render it a 4 door two seat race vehicle....... it would be done to the point where chassis stiffness benefitted which means the dash gets cut in the corners, you have to climb over the sidebar, the seat dosent recline much etc...... how is that still a dinkum street car?....

Daniel

Ask Jon about Spiro's cage in his 1100hp Typhoon Dan ...

It's engineered in Queensland , its an 8 point and the top half is painted to match the trim..

EG: It blends in and isn't originally noticed...

Daz.

[CFOUR]

Originally Posted by CAT600

I have to admit they were great about it as I was in bare feet

I'm confused, do you have to wear shoes while driving in wa?, or where you concerned they'd think you where a bogan?

[2011G6E]

I notice a few people mentioning "never had any trouble when cops have pulled me over".

There is a simply massive point that some people have probably avoided through pure luck on that side of things. I've been unlucky enough to have had it happen to me three times over the 29 times I've been driving.

That thing is the difference between being pulled over by a policeman, and being pulled over by a Department of Transport checkpoint or roadside inspection station.

The police will usually, with luck, not go any further than kicking the tyres, maybe looking at suspension height, and any obviously illegal stuff.
Being done by the Department of Transport is a different kettle of fish however. Especially if you get done at one of those roadside rolling-road full-on testing vehicles which looks like a low loader that you drive up onto. It fully...and I mean fully...tests all sorts of stuff. Suspension, brake efficiency, noise output, emissions, everything.
They really give you a pull through with a pine cone as they go over virtually every nut and bolt and couldn't care less if they're making you late for work.
I got done once by the rolling road thing when we had our beautiful (and we assumed totally roadworthy) XC-Update Fairmont GXL. They found the rear shocks weren't up to scratch, that the front brakes could be better, that the emissions were way out of tolerance (no surprise given the engine had a Holley, extractors, and no emissions gear at all), and the tyres were getting close to replacement time. After a "sort of" defect notice (we could keep driving, but had to adress the brakes and shocks...they had some sort of scale which meant they made allowances for old vehicles having worse emissions so we scraped through...somehow...), and off we went after about twenty minutes.
Anyone else been through that? This was in Queensland, in Bundaberg, maybe ten years ago.

The other two instances were just a couple of guys with testing gear by the side of the road, but yet again it was far more thorough than a policeman would have done, testing noise levels, checking under the bonnet, checking for mods, etc, etc, etc.

I remember being pulled by a pair of cops many years back in my 1979 TE Cortina 4.1 Rally Pack. I had the bonnet off and being fitted with a scoop and painted, and had rung the police to see if I could drive it like that with no bonnet to go to work on one day before fitting it that night. They said no problems, as long as it was for one day, so I did. The other two cops didn't see it that way...
They walked over, asked me about where the bonnet was (they understood and said it was OK as long as it went back on that night), and looked straight at the cross-flow motor, and honestly asked "So what is it...a V8?"

You can be lucky...but then again, as I said, you could get a pull-through with a pine cone...

[camfraser]

Originally Posted by camfraser

How hard is this??

Regardless of mods it should be:

Registered...

Roadworthy...

Engineered (if applicable).


It should pass any test at any time by the authorities and be as safe as the law requires it to be.

Adding to this: It's mods don't negatively affect the drivability on the road?

This point is where the definition will differ from person to person!

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Being done by the Department of Transport is a different kettle of fish however. Especially if you get done at one of those roadside rolling-road full-on testing vehicles which looks like a low loader that you drive up onto. It fully...and I mean fully...tests all sorts of stuff. Suspension, brake efficiency, noise output, emissions, everything.
They really give you a pull through with a pine cone as they go over virtually every nut and bolt and couldn't care less if they're making you late for work.

Never even seen anything like that!

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by CFOUR

I'm confused, do you have to wear shoes while driving in wa?, or where you concerned they'd think you where a bogan?

The latter.

I was making reference to the seat being loose in the passenger side..... they can certainly write you up for that any day of the week.

Daniel

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by camfraser

Adding to this: It's mods don't negatively affect the drivability on the road?

This point is where the definition will differ from person to person!

Vastly differ from person to person...I've seen some very vocal arguments on the roadside when someone is trying to justify some mod or other to either police or Transport guys. What you might think is "safe" isn't seen as such...often for very good reasons...by the authorities.

Not sure about other states, but here's a link to the vehicle modification guidelines for Queensland:
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Safety/Veh...fications.aspx
Pretty big download as a .pdf file, but it covers pretty much everything. (Page 150 is the start of the section on roll cages)

If you take the time to wade through the entire document, you'll be honesly surprised what you are allowed to get away with...as long as you stick to the letter of the regs and get it engineered.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Never even seen anything like that!

Half your luck...

As I said, this was maybe ten years ago...and they held you up for nearly half an hour if they thought there could be something interesting about your car. On the ground was the usual visual inspections going on that only took a short while, but it was Come In Spinner if they chose you to go up on the trailer.

They might have dropped it as it was an expensive exercise and took up a lot of peoples time.

[Blem]

Originally Posted by Elks

Reminds me of an A-Model roadster pick-up built by Norm Longfeild some years back.

It was bright red, fenderless, with big drag slicks on the rear, powered by a wild a blown Hemi that was mounted in the tray, it could pull wheelies on demand. But the kicker was, it was registered as a Tractor..

Yeah sure but did it have air ?

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Half your luck...

As I said, this was maybe ten years ago...and they held you up for nearly half an hour if they thought there could be something interesting about your car. On the ground was the usual visual inspections going on that only took a short while, but it was Come In Spinner if they chose you to go up on the trailer.

They might have dropped it as it was an expensive exercise and took up a lot of peoples time.

Always wondered what a boring old stock standard EL GLi would run up on a dyno....

[302 XC]

Dont they nowadays in QLD , if pulled over IF they have doubts about mods wether illegal or not just send you to pineapple street for a thorough vehicle inspection
I dont need a mod plate for a 4x4 body lift but it must be inspected ???

[Bluepower]

They crash test cars for a reason folks . . . . . . .

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by camfraser

How hard is this??

Regardless of mods it should be:

Registered...

Roadworthy...

Engineered (if applicable)

half of the cars on here are probably not roadworthy, be it because of larger wheels, too low, even exhaust mods etc. which would mean that most of the aff cars are not street cars

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Bluepower

They crash test cars for a reason folks . . . . . . .

Your right, for normal stuff and most extreme cases that are assumed or deemed to be within the boundaries of reality.

But what about nutters going down a road in Tassie at ~250kph with basically no run off on the sides etc.

I know the fellas dont do these events often, but it only takes once. I should of clarified and said I was not talking about full on V8SC cages, but something like Nuggets installation is perfect for a car that see's "regular" circuit work but is keep as a streeter aswell.

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Guys,

So your believers in the legitimate 8 second daily too?..... you also believe that the fact half the car's componentry needs changing between street and track makes it a dinkum street car?

Tony if you run your car at the circuit and drags without any more than fitting an R-compound tyre compared to how it runs on the road then I commend you and know that my mentality is not far from that mark... where we differ is that a cage would certainly push my car past the definition of street car in my books, and those of several states law enforcement offices..... the latter giving a bit of credibility to me I reckon. As far as hypothetically picking apart my AU, it has an engineering report for the transplant, trans, exhaust, brakes etc and if I had a pump fuel tune I would drive my AU to the June Forum Nationals from Perth, but with over 23psi boost on a blower its not likely to tune very nice....

You can "call me out" on that if you like.

Alex, your wide assumption lacks thought, in no way can the Clubsport example I gave (and on my oath I am not hamming the story up) be legit even with its RTA clearance to run on the road.... all this proves is that the gulf between legitimacy, stretched truth and plain old "what you can get away with" somewhat resembles the Bermuda Triangle in both appearance and function.

Paulie, i'm in shock with you my old sparring partner, I still got nothing.

Daniel

"Alex, your wide assumption lacks thought "
I really don't think so, Most cars i go out with on a leisurely drive some weekends and week nights are 9 and 10 second legal streeters,regardles of your thoughts on what is legal or not these guys pass every police clearance.I think you may be missing the point.

[CFOUR]

They test and design cars to crumple and absorb impact, a car with a roll cage is solid and with impact to a rigid object alot of the energy will be transferred to the occupant smashing his/her brain against their skull. At racing venues the walls are designed to absorb the impact instead of cars as the two are bound to come together regularly.

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by CFOUR

They test and design cars to crumple and absorb impact, a car with a roll cage is solid and with impact to a rigid object alot of the energy will be transferred to the occupant smashing his/her brain against their skull. At racing venues the walls are designed to absorb the impact instead of cars as the two are bound to come together regularly.

There are many open top cars that are factory build with some sort of adr approved cage fitted from the factory.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by CFOUR

They test and design cars to crumple and absorb impact, a car with a roll cage is solid and with impact to a rigid object alot of the energy will be transferred to the occupant smashing his/her brain against their skull. At racing venues the walls are designed to absorb the impact instead of cars as the two are bound to come together regularly.

i beleive racing cars are designed around the safety cell. the monocoque or even the passenger compartment in the v8s and nascar are still much more rigid than the outer edges of the car/cage. an f1 or indy car is designed to virtually shear everything to the monocoque to absorb the impact so the safety cell stays in tact. i believe v8's and nascars are still designed to crumple to some degree up until the passenger compartment. solid concrete walls at bathurst, indy etc. do not have a lot of give in them. it does help though that they are generally angled to give as much a glancing low as possible

[prasac]

2011G6E Police are smarter these days alot (especially in my area Sydney's West) know all the mod rules etc and know exactly what's legal or not.

all the tough laws on modding cars came in because of the hoons on the street that street race and can't handle a car, smash them, kill people or get caught speeding. i grew up around street racing, it was always done on deserted roads, you would sometimes see 100's of cars rock up to have a run. people only did it back then because their was no track. soon as the track came, street racing took a back step and was practically non-existant. people would still go to the same places and hang-out and just catch up, bugger all racing.

factory cars now make more power people don't need to build a race car to run quick numbers and it's not expensive. i will use a mate's Soarer TT 2.5L as an example (ok, it's a 20yo car but turbo tech back in the day was not as good as now), it's a factory car unopened with factory turbo's, paid i think $11k a few years ago for it and spent about $5k on it (tune etc) and it runs consistent 11.8@116 17psi it's a car he drives daily and has clocked over close to 300,000km's, it's big, heavy and luxurious, it's a Lexus so you can imagine. he could spend another $3-$5k put bigger turbo's, more boost in the car and run low 11's even 10's for $20k and have a car that runs 10's that was unheard of 10-20 years ago. the new FPV GT blown 5L runs 11.5@122 with just a tune and exhaust, it's a factory car u can drive day in and day out.

the question i have is why do you need a 7,8,9,10-sec daily street car, i have a 14-sec street car that does exactly the same as any faster car does. if i want to drive 110km/h i can drive 110. if i want to overtake someone i can overtake them, why do i need to go fast? so there is no need to drive ur 8-sec registered race car daily.

roll cages can be built with bolt-on intrusion bars, so you can get into the car as easy as normal. u only need put them in when u race. roll cages are more dangerous to the car that hits you that is why you don't see any full tube cars on the street a car it has no crumple zones, up until about 5 or so years ago 10-point roll cages were allowed but now days 6-point is the most allowable in NSW.

[CFOUR]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

i beleive racing cars are designed around the safety cell.

The first inclusion of sand traps was to keep the cars from careering into crowds opposed to driver safety, the deep pits however caused lots of medium speed rollovers which in turn created the need for a rigid roll bar. This evolved over the years to today's cell & breakaway systems used in different categories around the world. Unfortunately these safety systems directly conflict with global road safety regulations which are for the safety of all parties not just the occupants of a single veichle (pedestrian rated bumpers anybody?).

People on the road do not wear safety suits, helmets, Hans devices and 5+point harnesses all of which are things that work with cages to improve safety and with the exception of the suit heavily imped vision. Is it even legal to where a helmet in a car on Aussie roads?

As for a cage for the means of rigidity, by doing so you are directly affecting the comfort and road function of a car for better performance while off public roads. Which when specificating to this threads discussion is a violation of the true street car definition we are working towards (albeit indirectly)

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Not just for that, If I was going to do a cage it would have to actually work and not just be there to make motorsport officials happy..... this would mean that the intrusivness of the cage would stop it resembling a 4 door 5 seat street car and render it a 4 door two seat race vehicle....... it would be done to the point where chassis stiffness benefitted which means the dash gets cut in the corners, you have to climb over the sidebar, the seat dosent recline much etc...... how is that still a dinkum street car?.... When Jon Bailey came over last time he sat in the car with me and the H-Bomb and there was no fear of banging heads on roll bars (padded or not they hurt) or issues entering and exiting the car.

As for the police outlook on cages, funny you mention that as I was just out in the AU sorting an ignition fault with these new style plugs im running and I got pulled up for noise. Police went over the car, checked my Engineering report, sound test report and permit (Thanks mr Terry Southam!) and when I told them I was diagnosing an ignition fault for the drags, the officer SPECIFICALLY made mention of cars they pull up "testing" for drags that have cages that are immaculate but dont comply to WA regs.... got to admit they were great about it as I was in bare feet with my passenger seat unbolted (MSD lives under there) and they could have done me for that and tread depth...... right on the indicators atm! Left them smiling with a voucher in my hand for blowing 000 on the breatho

Daniel

You seem to be stuck on this.

Cages can be and are legal in NSW, I have put a member here onto an engineer I use to have his cage approved, it sailed through without issue.

There are regulations to follow in regard to headroom, bolt in intrusion bar etc, its do-able and you get a little silver sticker for the engine bay to prove it from the RTA, so how is it not a street car, it IS by the RTA's definition, I have been pulled over at breath test stations, and they have had a look, and I have left with nothing but a compliment on the car.

This is just going around in circles now, seems some have a vested interest to somehow prove to others that their ride (or definition) of a street car is more valid than anothers, and by arguing so somehow prove they are better than someone else..

[XW 393]

All these agendas ......

[camfraser]

This isn't meant to be a smartass question, but can a street car only have the single purpose of being driven on the street?

Perhaps in terms of defining a street car the percentage of time on the road relative to race/drag should be considered, not the absolute time spent anywhere in particular.

Because the STREET part of a STREET car is what should truly count. If you have a 7/8 sec street car and have dragged it once but decided you wanted a cage for that one run, why does the cage then define it's category. As with every other modification.

I'd like to re-cap my points made:

Regardless of mods it should be:

Registered...

Roadworthy...

Engineered (if applicable)...

It's mods don't negatively affect the drivability on the road (for the owner/driver)

And as above, percentage of time on the road relative to race/drag should be considered, not the absolute time spent anywhere in particular.

Getting close or not?

[2011G6E]

I think everyone knows that you can indeed have a "race carfor the road", but that there are a hell of a lot of compromises to make it legal and safe for you and other road users.

it.s the guys who don't realise or don't care that compromises have to be made that are the worry...

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by CFOUR

The first inclusion of sand traps was to keep the cars from careering into crowds opposed to driver safety, the deep pits however caused lots of medium speed rollovers which in turn created the need for a rigid roll bar. This evolved over the years to today's cell & breakaway systems used in different categories around the world

the cars were being designed to break apart to lessen the sudden stop to the driver before sand traps. indy cars had almost perfected the trick by the early/mid 80's at the latest and f1 were starting that probably before catch fencing was in place. i do not know the exact time, but the idea for a long time has been that the wheels and wings would fall off on impact, while hoping the safety cell would hold together. even with the aluminium tubs, the concept was there, even if cell would also tear itself apart on impact

i would think to some degree, that once again car manufacturers used the knowledge gained from racing to get their safety cells in order