Has your ZF milkshaked poll - POST 2012 ONLY

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

bump for this

Quote: Does anyone actually have any info about the heat exchanger design changing throughout the years?

Was responding to the question, waited, but saw no response, where's your contribution?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmoughton View Post
You still got your licence
Sure have. Some of us live in the bush.

You do realise there are still open speed limits in parts of this country.

How about 160km/h? Any high speed testing at all?

Right, so you don't have any idea?

Have driven in NT a fair bit, cops told me 130km/hr was the limit.

But you really can't be serious, the average driver would rarely be doing those sort of speeds, out of interest what is your trans temp at those speeds by the way?

My monitoring has been done at speeds one would normally expect to see.

Again lots of critisim without much else

[Trump]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

Quote: Does anyone actually have any info about the heat exchanger design changing throughout the years?

Was responding to the question, waited, but saw no response, where's your contribution?

I thought you were done posting...

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Trump

I thought you were done posting...

Would be rude not to respond

Still waiting for anything of substance from certain people on this thread, shan't be holding my breath though.

Am a gluten for punishment

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

Have driven in NT a fair bit, cops told me 130km/hr was the limit.

But you really can't be serious, the average driver would rarely be doing those sort of speeds, out of interest what is your trans temp at those speeds by the way?

My monitoring has been done at speeds one would normally expect to see.

Again lots of critisim without much else

I'm deadly serious, quite a few of us do those speeds.
For example how many people here take their car to the track/dragstrip?
Lots.
Any testing done there?

My trans temp will be the same as my engine temp - certainly no lower as I have a factory heat exchanger.

So really you don't know but are prepared to make the claim that transmissions and oil will definitely last longer.

Years ago I had a $30,000 racing engine literally explode on me. When it was sent back to mercury racing for testing it was found the thermostat was stuck wide open and the motor let go because of uneven heating of the differing metals. Cold is not better.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

I'm deadly serious, quite a few of us do those speeds.
For example how many people here take their car to the track/dragstrip?
Lots.
Any testing done there?

My trans temp will be the same as my engine temp - certainly no lower as I have a factory heat exchanger.

So really you don't know but are prepared to make the claim that transmissions and oil will definitely last longer.

Years ago I had a $30,000 racing engine literally explode on me. When it was sent back to mercury racing for testing it was found the thermostat was stuck wide open and the motor let go because of uneven heating of the differing metals. Cold is not better.

Fair enough mate, thought you might be tongue in cheek again, not tested by me, but there are others that have air/oil coolers that have track tested and posted on my thread, here's one example, https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=590

There are more posts, but it's a long trawl through my thread.

Regards, George

[prydey]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

my 2007 heat exchanger, image

2005 image

What is this dissection meant to show?

Originally Posted by gmoughton

Still waiting for anything of substance from certain people on this thread,

This thread was for a specific purpose, as outlined in the first post, but as usual it was hijacked by you pushing your agenda.

It's never been about the gearbox or oil temp too high. Gearboxes have lasted just fine being liquid cooled for decades. It's just more scaremongering by you making people think the factory setup is insufficient, which it isn't. Ford testing is slightly more thorough than yours as far as cooling performance is concerned.

[mexicov]

gmoughton You've done a fantastic job and many of us are sleeping much better knowing that we can NEVER have the dreaded milkshake, regardless of how little risk may be involved in retaining the OEM cooler. preyday et al - please let us know how much your transmission repair bill is when you eventually experience milkshaking!

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Sorry that you feel that way prydey, not intending to take anything over at all.

Questions have been raised by many people including yourself on this thread, I have merely endeavoured to answer those questions, often in the absence of zero response from others, I am not taking this thread over intentionally, just trying to add to its worth with relevant info and comment

The 2nd pic post of the heat exchangers is showing how fragile the internals are and the number of layers in the heat exchanger, the later ones merely had more of the same.

Thought as the subject matter is heat exchangers it would be totally relevant and informative to all.

You cannot expect to raise such an important subject without getting the response you have, would have thought you would have welcomed it.

Regards, George

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

I'm deadly serious, quite a few of us do those speeds.
For example how many people here take their car to the track/dragstrip?
Lots.
Any testing done there?

My trans temp will be the same as my engine temp - certainly no lower as I have a factory heat exchanger.

So really you don't know but are prepared to make the claim that transmissions and oil will definitely last longer.

Years ago I had a $30,000 racing engine literally explode on me. When it was sent back to mercury racing for testing it was found the thermostat was stuck wide open and the motor let go because of uneven heating of the differing metals. Cold is not better.

Here's another one for you mate from stav, he drags https://fordforums.com.au/showpost.p...&postcount=207

Would love to get out on the track and put it to the test myself one day must say, pretty frustrating sitting on 100km/hr knowing you could be raising the hair on the back of your neck at god knows what speed

Regards, George

[prydey]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

The 2nd pic post of the heat exchangers is showing how fragile the internals are and the number of layers in the heat exchanger, the later ones merely had more of the same.

the pic merely shows that aluminium is soft and will deform when you try to cut it. it doesn't provide any evidence to support failures due to build quality or design.

Originally Posted by gmoughton

Thought as the subject matter is heat exchangers it would be totally relevant and informative to all.

You cannot expect to raise such an important subject without getting the response you have, would have thought you would have welcomed it.

Regards, George

the topic is pretty clear i thought. its in the title, and explained in the first post, and a few posts later. Is there evidence to suggest these heat exchangers are still failing? the title clearly says, POST 2012. there is still zero evidence to suggest they still fail.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by prydey

the pic merely shows that aluminium is soft and will deform when you try to cut it. it doesn't provide any evidence to support failures due to build quality or design.



the topic is pretty clear i thought. its in the title, and explained in the first post, and a few posts later. Is there evidence to suggest these heat exchangers are still failing? the title clearly says, POST 2012. there is still zero evidence to suggest they still fail.

Ok, enough is enough, its goodnight and goodbye from me, for those interested, all welcome to join me any time here,

https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11441275

Regards, George

[PG2]

I just can't believe what causes the heat exchanger to fail (in a small % of vehicles) still has not been 100% confirmed.

When and what was changed and/or improved to help prevent a milkshake in the later model Falcons?

[arronm]

Full cream milk, no hi-lo or skim.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Trump

I thought you were done posting...

As if, he's relentless, even likes posts that are not in his favour.

[olfella]

He is a PIA and one who cannot accept any other view than his own. And what has he has contributed here - nuthin

[mexicov]

gmoughton They're all jealous that you have identified the problem first.

[olfella]

Originally Posted by mexicov

gmoughton They're all jealous that you have identified the problem first.

Really? the problem was well identified back when Noah built the ark. A lot has happened since and hence the reason the OP wanted data to gather some stats to see if it is still an issue.
And what has you mate done? Come in with his bluster (and told everyone that will listen like you) he has a fix. Only problem is he does not know what he is fixing. So a fix to what? What caused components to fail in the first place? Has this been addressed by manufacturers? What is different now to what it was before. He does not know and will not shut up long enough to find out.
You must remember (if that is possible) that these seperate components were designed by engineers with more knowledge and experience in their little finger than some one who manages to trot along and tell everyone he has seen the light and they MUST fit an after market kit on a chat forum. Just plain old scare mongering and snake oil salesmanship at best.
And thanks to him this thread is f#$%^@# and we will never know what the current state of play is. 5 pages of crap is all there is.

[arronm]

Originally Posted by mexicov

gmoughton They're all jealous that you have identified the problem first.

I don't think so. Check his join date. Not even 2 years. A baby just learning to walk. Like a child he needs to stop and listen to the adults once in a while

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by mexicov

gmoughton They're all jealous that you have identified the problem first.

Identified a problem with POST 2012 cars which are the subject of this thread?

He must be clever, as I still don't see even one instance with POST 2012 cars here, despite the poll figures showing otherwise.

And besides, he wasn't the first to identify the issue with EARLIER cars either. In fact I wrote a tech article around ten years ago installing a transmission cooler, well before George arrived here. And I wasn't the one who identified the issue either.

[mexicov]

Boy! that put the cat among the pigeons! Thanks for all your views.

[Mont5.0]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAOLTsTtZis

[Cav]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

I'm trying to work out whether the reliability of the heat exchanger bolted to the side of the engine near the starter motor is being determined here, or heat exchangers as a whole.

Territory diesels don't have a heat exchanger like those in the petrol vehicles. Like the V8's, they have the heat exchanger in the radiator. But different radiators I suspect. And they use a different, longer life coolant.

So perhaps Diesel Territories and V8's should be excluded from this poll?

I didn't know that.

But then again I am a dumb Kent

[olfella]

Originally Posted by Cav

I didn't know that.

But then again I am a dumb Kent

Well I know that!

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

To be fair Silver Ghia I think gmoughton is using optimal with reference to fuel economy, at least this is the way I read the post.

EG the trans needs to get to at least 30 degrees and from there it's running in a mode that is optimal for fuel economy.

Obviously the transmission will work at lower temperatures than 30 degrees. If it didn't work at lower temps we'd be stuffed on a cold morning in Melbourne.

Looking at the posts it seems the absolute minimum operation temperature is -20, ie if I start it on a cold day in Europe the transmission will function and not be completely frozen.

The minimum temperature the transmission needs to get good fuel economy and be operating normally is 30 degrees. If it drops below that the trans will try to heat itself up to get itself to at least 30 degrees. I guess the only caveat here is ZF didn't state in the email that 30degrees was for optimal fuel economy, however, this is the temp they stop actively heating the transmission via their warmup strategy. The interesting thought I have here is what is the warmup strategy and can that cause premature wear of the transmission if over used? If your cooler is so good the temps drop under 30 and this strategy kicks in a lot does that cause more wear?

Originally Posted by Blem

My F6 is 08. Runs an air cooler with a Deraile bypass thermostat which opens fully at 83c. My cooler has a fan which only turns on at 87c & has only ever done at the track mainly on return to the pits. May have turned on once or at most twice in heatwave temps during road use.
I have a light which shows when the fan turns on. Other than that I have no ZF temps monitoring but it's fair to say it could almost do without any cooling except for major crawling in very heavy traffic on a hot day & track days.

Interesting that over 10% of respondents of post 12 cars have had an milkshake issue unless I read that wrong.

Originally Posted by V8falcons

ok this will throw a spanner in the works and get a few dislikes im sure.....
i ve done a test with my post 2012 territory (for when i get around to fitting a bypass cooler and it will get one before I tow with it..) and have bypassed the coolant lines to the heat exchanger... just running the trans fluid though it.. still gets air flow,and has been that way for 5 months now...
there is absolutely no difference in performance/temps with the engine or trans...and now I can sleep well at night... if the heat exchanger does fail ill see an oil leak on the floor and that is all..
Previously on my other zf6 cars I have ran a bypass trans coolers... to get the same outcome..again makes no difference to performance/temps...
dont over think the process..

Originally Posted by Sprint Turbo

Thanks for your feedback.

Funny how your poll to determine the amounts of failures of latter heat exchangers turn into a ****fight!

I assume now that everyone who was hammering gmoughton about his info about operating temps will now be hammering you about your "source at Ford" about sand in the engine blocks and your statement that the "heat exchanger has had a couple of changes over the years". ?

Does anyone actually have any info about the heat exchanger design changing throughout the years?

Has anyone apart gmoughton got info about the best operating temps for the ZF gearbox? Seems that some people are trying to shoot him down without have any facts to back up what the best temps are.

Originally Posted by olfella

He is a PIA and one who cannot accept any other view than his own. And what has he has contributed here - nuthin

Originally Posted by olfella

Really? the problem was well identified back when Noah built the ark. A lot has happened since and hence the reason the OP wanted data to gather some stats to see if it is still an issue.
And what has you mate done? Come in with his bluster (and told everyone that will listen like you) he has a fix. Only problem is he does not know what he is fixing. So a fix to what? What caused components to fail in the first place? Has this been addressed by manufacturers? What is different now to what it was before. He does not know and will not shut up long enough to find out.
You must remember (if that is possible) that these seperate components were designed by engineers with more knowledge and experience in their little finger than some one who manages to trot along and tell everyone he has seen the light and they MUST fit an after market kit on a chat forum. Just plain old scare mongering and snake oil salesmanship at best.
And thanks to him this thread is f#$%^@# and we will never know what the current state of play is. 5 pages of crap is all there is.

I cannot standby and not respond to the misrepresentation of my posts, motives and intentions by certain people on this thread.

"russelw" and the Forum admin team have recognised my contribution and the knowledge of that sustains me when I am subjected to such unfair criticism.

Yes, I am new to this Forum, but have had nothing but Ford cars for 45 years and have the greatest respect for Ford Engineers.

We all make changes to the design of our cars from time to time by replacing parts with non OEM, diff bushes, tyres, brakes, suspension etc, and do that based on verifiable info and experience of others, why should the heat exchanger be any different?

I have never said I was the first to identify this or any other problem.

I have never said anyone MUST fit an aftermarket kit or anything else, merely posted info in order that people can make their own decisions based on all the available info.

I have merely been responding to totally relevant questions and comments raised by others on this thread (thankyou) that I have quoted here with info obtained from my own monitoring, ZF or my Ford Workshop Manual, its beyond me how anyone could consider that to be "nuthin" or "5 pages of crap".

The poll stands as it is and will give us an indication of the current situation, despite the limited exposure it is getting in this area of the Forum.

I sincerely hope that the heat exchanger problem has been resolved and no one will ever have to worry about the risk of a "Milkshake" again, only time will tell.

I have always shown respect for the views of my fellow Forum members and merely expect the same in return.

Regards, George

[prydey]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

I have merely been responding to totally relevant questions and comments

No George, this thread was meant to be about POST 2012 cars. Not an excuse to rehash the same old stuff from at least 2 other threads. This is what annoyed some people who are trying to establish the current state of play.

Originally Posted by gmoughton

The poll stands as it is and will give us an indication of the current situation, despite the limited exposure it is getting in this area of the Forum.

No, the poll is useless now. Of those who have voted 'yes', 3 of the vehicles are v8's, which don't have a heat exchanger, 1 is earlier than the stated period (misunderstanding) and the other (lNate) is unconfirmed.

i'm not too concerned with all the 'No' votes and from where i sit, I think the poll still reads 0 failures for POST 2012 cars (unless lNate wants to confirm his car details as being in that group).

As for forum traffic, 'the pub' area is the highest traffic area by some margin, which is why i put it there.

[Mercury Bullet]

Jimmy Bakker keeps popping into my head....

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by prydey

No George, this thread was meant to be about POST 2012 cars. Not an excuse to rehash the same old stuff from at least 2 other threads. This is what annoyed some people who are trying to establish the current state of play.



No, the poll is useless now. Of those who have voted 'yes', 3 of the vehicles are v8's, which don't have a heat exchanger, 1 is earlier than the stated period (misunderstanding) and the other (lNate) is unconfirmed.

i'm not too concerned with all the 'No' votes and from where i sit, I think the poll still reads 0 failures for POST 2012 cars (unless lNate wants to confirm his car details as being in that group).

As for forum traffic, 'the pub' area is the highest traffic area by some margin, which is why i put it there.

Hi Prydey, I don't disagree completely with the first statement, but relevant questions where raised and answered by myself and others, that is no excuse for the continued personal comments and inane innuendo being directed at me.

Why would the poll be useless, I totally agree with your reasoning behind posting it and I don't see why its validity should not remain, provided people post the relevant info that you asked for when voting, those that haven't can stil do so, regardless of which way they voted and would definitely help in defining the current state of play.

Didn't realise the "pub" was so popular, I sincerely hope you get the response you deserve in the poll.

It would help us all significantly if more info was readily available about what Ford have done to rid us of the problem, if indeed they have? and at what point in time etc, then none of us would be concerned that the risk might still exist and we could all relax and enjoy driving our vehicles.

In the meantime we can only make decisions based on what info is available to us.

What times "Happy Hour" by the way

Regards, George

[gcg2503]

2013 FG2 G6E
No.
Replaced heat exchanger with PWR unit when 3 years old.

2014 FG2 G6ET.
No.

[olfella]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

I sincerely hope that the heat exchanger problem has been resolved and no one will ever have to worry about the risk of a "Milkshake" again, only time will tell.

As long as you keep on stealing other posters threads we will never know. Sometimes we learn more by shutting up and listening and you have had more than a fair go on multiple threads to put your thoughts across.

And while you keep on mentioning after market fixes, have you ever considered asking anyone that had them fitted if they failed and if so why?

I wish this forum had a block button

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

And while you keep on mentioning after market fixes, have you ever considered asking anyone that had them fitted if they failed and if so why?

I have never seen a post of or heard of a failed PWR air/oil cooler, PWR or Furious Performance/PWR air/oil cooler kit or PWR heat exchanger, if you have would you like to tell us about it?

Think, Prydey would prefer we had this discussion elsewhere though.

Sorry Prydey, poll was getting the required response too

Regards, George