wheels-380vrx v bfxr6 v vzsv6, Falcon wins

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

I agree. I don't think it would be fair to compare the VE to BF either... but being out on the market at the same time would be a good chance for Wheels to flog more magaizines.

I think the market is intelligent enough not to literally take into account what was written in the article. The market has always been price sensitive in this segment as well as conservative, hence their preference for RWDs over FWDs. Sales results have never reflected results of comparos in 'reputable' magazines.

Whether the comparison was fair or not is immaterial... its just an article that not many, apart from diehard fans of the blue oval and lion, would take seriously. As I said, the 6-speed auto alone isn't enough to make shoppers consider a Falcon... just as the 5 speed SV6 auto wasn't enough to persuade shoppers away from Falcon. But gee, Wheels, give the 380 a break!

Give 380 a break? Maybe it doesn't deserve one? Have you driven it yet?

And you would be suprised how much some people care about magazine reports, its all about bragging. 0-100 times a perfect example. If mags didn't report on it then what would xr8 and SS owners talk about?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Give 380 a break? Maybe it doesn't deserve one? Have you driven it yet?

And you would be suprised how much some people care about magazine reports, its all about bragging. 0-100 times a perfect example. If mags didn't report on it then what would xr8 and SS owners talk about?

Its Mitsubishi's Fault really, they marketed a FWD car as a competitor to the Big RWD 6's.
I would have thought given its limitations its pricing would be significantly lower (not higher!!!) than the Falcon or Commodore to balance off against its short comings or entice a look due to savings.
Unless you're only after family transportation i can't see how the 380 is a genuine competitor to the Falcon or Commodore...

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Give 380 a break? Maybe it doesn't deserve one? Have you driven it yet?

And you would be suprised how much some people care about magazine reports, its all about bragging. 0-100 times a perfect example. If mags didn't report on it then what would xr8 and SS owners talk about?

I've driven a Camry and rate it highly, does that count? As I said, the ratings that Wheels gave to Falcon vs its rivals is really undermining what good cars the others are. I've read the article and almost chucked at the little things they chose to criticise on the 380 and SV6 (probably to reinforce the Falcon's strengths). The gap between the Ford and its 'rivals' isn't the gulf Wheels believes it is.

What next, VE comes out with a great IRS and leapfrogs the 2-star advantage the BF has over VZ? How so? As I said, Wheels mag is a joke... it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

PS Don't believe I don't think highly of the Ford because I believe it is a great car. I didn't accept Wheels' oversensitive steering criticism of the XR6 because once the driver becomes familiar with the car, the Falcon's steering is direct and very linear.

[Polyal]

well 2.5 stars is a bit harsh for the sv6, but on the day that just how it is. also unitl you drive a 6 speed BF then you might change yuor tune a little with regards to the VZ. Ive driven a manual sv6, and while it wasn't that bad, its just so harsh.

Honestly, styling aside, there is not one thing a VZ does better, objectively anyway.

[JPFS1]

My comments are not just about the 6spd auto.

The BF update is far more than just a tranny upgrade.

Drive a Territory with the new 6spd and the difference is even more noticable over the Tezza with the 4spd.

It seems current BA owners that are not giving credit to BF are just a little p!ssed as if they've been neglected. That's life fella's. BF is quite a bit better than BA IMHO and many of my mates that drive them too. None of us own any model falcon.

[RavenLS1]

Originally Posted by The Monty

Doesnt the sv6 have 190kw? Thats not all that much faster 0-100 than the AU. I Know its a bit but for a new car with that much power, it doesnt seem all that impressive.

yeah 190kw with less torque than its predesesor.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by JEM

My comments are not just about the 6spd auto.

The BF update is far more than just a tranny upgrade.

Drive a Territory with the new 6spd and the difference is even more noticable over the Tezza with the 4spd.

It seems current BA owners that are not giving credit to BF are just a little p!ssed as if they've been neglected. That's life fella's. BF is quite a bit better than BA IMHO and many of my mates that drive them too. None of us own any model falcon.

Err, sorry, did I miss something?

Sounds a bit like a contradiction when the quote below states BF is transformed with the 6-speed auto, however, your subsequent quote above says BF is more than just a tranny upgrade.

So what makes the BF such a revelation?

Quote by JEM: I just peeled my butt out of a Rapid BF XR8, finally was able to put it through its paces in the dry!!! what a great drive. The new box is just so good, it has transformed every model. The sound is still so addictive even with the new sound reductions etc.

[ED Classic]

Originally Posted by EFFalcon

yeah SV6 has 190kw and a 5 speed auto.
those times are damn good from auto 6's!

Dont be suprised if the Manuals cannot match them.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by JEM

It seems current BA owners that are not giving credit to BF are just a little p!ssed as if they've been neglected. That's life fella's. BF is quite a bit better than BA IMHO and many of my mates that drive them too. None of us own any model falcon.

Surely everyone learnt their leason after the AU v BA thing..
Im a BA owner an im proud as punch that the BF is better! isnt that why car companies update? to improve??!!

[MADDER]

SSbaby,

I'm not sure why you're insisting on the "fleet" market issue. It would seem to me that while fleet buyers will be looking at base models, I don't think they will be relying on Wheels reviews as a basis for choice. I can't see any bean-counter saying (correct me if I'm wrong). "Gee, I don't know which to buy, car X, Y or Z but Wheels says my company's staff are going to get so much more driving pleasure out of X so that's what we'll buy".

Those who have a salary packaging option on the other hand can make a personal choice and are also more likely to be reading Wheels. If we could look into sales of BA XR6s and SV6s we would likely find a high proportion of salary packaged cars. The XR6 itself counts for a very sizeable portion of Falcon sales. Resale is a concern in anybodies book and if I was buying an XR6 auto this year knowing that 5-speeds and 6-speeds are likely to be standard in all pov-packs next year then I would say the ZF would be a must-get.

I'm sure Wheels will get round to a pov-pack comparo but car mags are for car enthusiasts and so the cars in this test are cars for budget conscious enthusiasts. If Mitsu has a car with sporting pretensions it must be compared with others of it's ilk. Mitsu have had no qualms with comparing the 380 with Falcon and Commodore so they have picked the fight. Wheels have tested the best specced model from each manufacturer and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[SSbaby]

Madder,

Simply because the base models sell in greatest numbers even though XR6 makes up 30% of total Falcon sales... its still relative to the large car market. Don't forget the car rental companies buy a fair number of base models, as do Telstra, Lease Plan, Orix etc... Fleets and lower cost was Holden's reasoning to keep the clunky 4-speed auto behind the Alloytec.

IMO, a worthwhile comparison would have been of Ford's performance models vs Holden's (which, btw is going to be an upcoming test) or possibly a back-to-back test of BA Falcon 4-spd auto vs BF 6 spd auto.

If you read what the scribe (Nathan Ponchard) wrote, he was very vague in many areas in the article. He dismissed the 380 purely on looks and cheap plastics. Excuse me but Falcon is no Audi in that department. He wrote some garb about 'the VZ's aging structure beginning to show signs of harshness'... or words to the effect. There is very little substance in his review, IMHO. Pure, confusing, worthless tripe of an article.

I reckon I could do much better as a scribe. Don't worry, I'll tell it like it is even if it ultimately means the Ford is the personal favourite, I'll articulate precisely why its better. ;)

Mickey T, give me a job, PLEASE!

PS I don't think Wheels will forgive me for my critical appraisal of their work... no point applying there. ;)

[MADDER]

SSbaby,

The pov-pack test will come as will the SS vs XR8, SS vs XR6T, XR8 Ute vs SS Ute, Aventra SX vs Terri TX blah, blah, blah. How else we gonna get punters to buy the next 12 issues of Wheels.

I'm personally looking forward to a test of the XT-230kW/500Nm V8 with mandatory 6-speed and performance brakes and optional LSD.

[SSbaby]

One things for sure, Madder... we'll have plenty to discuss over the next 12 months! ;) :

[MADDER]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

One things for sure, Madder... we'll have plenty to discuss over the next 12 months! ;) :

Discuss is too polite a word. :

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Err, sorry, did I miss something?

Sounds a bit like a contradiction when the quote below states BF is transformed with the 6-speed auto, however, your subsequent quote above says BF is more than just a tranny upgrade.

So what makes the BF such a revelation?

My point about the BF being a more significant update holds true and i stand by it, especially when you look at my posts on a broader scale (in several different threads on the forum).

The tranny imo, makes a signifianct contribution to the feel of the car now, and that's how i explained it. I won't go into all the details regarding the rest of the upgrades, it's been covered well in other threads and media on the net.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by JEM

My point about the BF being a more significant update holds true and i stand by it, especially when you look at my posts on a broader scale (in several different threads on the forum).

The tranny imo, makes a signifianct contribution to the feel of the car now, and that's how i explained it. I won't go into all the details regarding the rest of the upgrades, it's been covered well in other threads and media on the net.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I guess I'm good at finding cracks in comments from those who talk from the heart. ;)

There is no difference in suspension tune over BA in BF. The only refinements other than 6-speed auto is in NVH suppression. These upgrades alone do not constitute a transformation.

That's why I'm peeved with the article when I read it. out:

Anyway, enough from me on this topic. :hihi:

[CAMS290]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

I guess I'm good at finding cracks in comments from those who talk from the heart. ;)

There is no difference in suspension tune over BA in BF. The only refinements other than 6-speed auto is in NVH suppression. These upgrades alone do not constitute a transformation.

That's why I'm peeved with the article when I read it. out:

Anyway, enough from me on this topic. :hihi:

I suppose the Holden brigade are lucky that wheels didn't test the XT against the Exec, wouldnt that cause a stir ?

175kw Exec gets pulverised by 190kw XT, imagine the dribble coming out of peoples mouths trying to defend the Holden.

I personaly think Holden will make the 190kw motor standard across the range of Commodores, as they will now cop a pasting from the BF and the 380.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

I guess I'm good at finding cracks in comments from those who talk from the heart. ;)

There is no difference in suspension tune over BA in BF. The only refinements other than 6-speed auto is in NVH suppression. These upgrades alone do not constitute a transformation.

That's why I'm peeved with the article when I read it. out:

Anyway, enough from me on this topic. :hihi:

Pfft go back to your glass house...

We havent seen anything special from holden since they brought out the VT : You guys must be seriously starting to get bored with your cars as they never bring out anything new or different, lucky for those who bought VTII Gen III's i spose, they still got the latest Technology providing they got an Edit and zorst. :

The BF isn't hugely improved over the BA, but it didn't need to be in the first place, the car is still young compared to the Commodore and is still infront in alot of its technology. Even the simple aspects like an inglass radio antenna, electric pedals and a sequential box which Holden still have implemented in the last 3 years. Commodores still come standard with 15 inch rims for christ sake.

Holden still havent even got a sequential box in any of their cars, as for the 190 5 speed box thats about a Technologically advanced a 99 T Series with the adaptshift buttons on the wheel, nothing special there and its gay to use!

Holden have gone no where near as Ford when it comes to personalisation either, you get in an Executive and its the same as an SV6 inside, stupid looking green dash that tells you the radio station - wow, atleast you get something nice to look at in the XR and your mates actually compliment you on how inviting / modern looking the interior is, something HOLDEN has been lacking since the VX!

So if you think Wheels are being a bunch of tossers, maybe you need to reevaluate the situation, an SV6 next to an XR6 is an absolute joke!

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

I guess I'm good at finding cracks in comments from those who talk from the heart. ;)

There is no difference in suspension tune over BA in BF. The only refinements other than 6-speed auto is in NVH suppression. These upgrades alone do not constitute a transformation.

That's why I'm peeved with the article when I read it. out:

Anyway, enough from me on this topic. :hihi:

Give it up dude, your constant whinging about Falcons is really annoying as its just so baseless. Drive both the BA and then the BF and tell me the BF's not a great improvement. Face it, the VZ is old news and needed to be replaced months ago. Good on Wheels for telling it like it is. BF is the best car in its class at this moment, and they aren't the only ones who say so.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by ShockWaveXR6na

Holden still havent even got a sequential box in any of their cars, as for the 190 5 speed box thats about a Technologically advanced a 99 T Series with the adaptshift buttons on the wheel, nothing special there and its gay to use!

Without the intentions of a flame war I would like to give my opinion on this comment.

While this is true the same thing cant be said about the 6 speed manuals that the Falcons use now.

If memory serves me correct the 6 speed manual in the Falcons are reletiverly (sp) new (Well the concept of a 6 speed anyway) I think Holden first used a 6 speed manual back in 89-90 with the VN.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by VY18s

Without the intentions of a flame war I would like to give my opinion on this comment.

While this is true the same thing cant be said about the 6 speed manuals that the Falcons use now.

If memory serves me correct the 6 speed manual in the Falcons are reletiverly (sp) new (Well the concept of a 6 speed anyway) I think Holden first used a 6 speed manual back in 89-90 with the VN.

you create a war because you talk BS.

6 speed manual or auto i a VN...hahaha...I think VX was the first to get a 6 speed manual (maybe VT2)

[ED Classic]

Yes Holden had the 6 Speed Manual in VN but then again 6th with its tall gearing was worth nothing. Was it there for marketing or did Holden not have the $ to make it work properly? I know up untill VX journos still thought it was a waste. Have they got it right yet?

[XAGSV8]

Can't seem to recall a 6 speed in a VN.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by CAMS290

I suppose the Holden brigade are lucky that wheels didn't test the XT against the Exec, wouldnt that cause a stir ?

175kw Exec gets pulverised by 190kw XT, imagine the dribble coming out of peoples mouths trying to defend the Holden.

I didn't think of that, let me know if it's on the cards, i'll go buy some Kleenex shares.. :evil_laug

[Falcon Coupe]

Vn group A had twin throttle body and 6 speed manual.....a monster of it's time.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Vn group A had twin throttle body and 6 speed manual.....a monster of it's time.

well I thought we were talking bread and butter cars here...ford had the xr8 sequintial which I think was a 6 speed...lol

Anyway waaaayy off topic

[Ryan]

Polyal its cool mate.

Just dont be so quick to jump to conclusions next time.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Are we all done now !!! I think you are !!!!

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Them's fighting words, dude. I'll ignore the personal bull from you.

Glasshouse? Well you agreed with me that the 6-speed auto is no revolution over your 4-speed. Are we getting a little paroachial now? : :

Sorry for putting it bluntly but the BF is not altered over BA apart from the 6-speed and attention to NVH. Why would I need to drive it if I've already driven a BA? It's a good thing Ford told us what the changes are or else I would have thought Falcon XR6 is the best car on the planet judging from the responses from many experts here who have never driven the BF. :

If the BF with the non-standard ZF auto and NVH upgrade is enough to give you guys a woody then you guys are overdosing on Viagra!!!

We could all say the same about you Holden boys and your VZ which is nothing but a tarted up VT..... As for the six speed manual, WOW!

What did Holden put in the VZ over the VY?? and why did they even bother. Oh thats right a new V6 which is no better then the old one, lol and some guard scoopes that are fake!

I have said that I wouldn't bother upgrading to a six speed auto at a cost of $17,000, this does not mean I wouldn't buy one now if I didn't have better things to do with my money.

As for viagra I heard holden was giving a box load free with every SV6/SS/HSV sold in the month of October, maybe you should upgrade! :

As for some of us not driving BFs and talking about them, i can assure you ive driven the new six speed and was impressed by its smoothness, theres very little drive train whine go through the car its lost that taxi noise, which was drematically reduced in the BA, and now further in the BF.

I dont see what else you need in a midlife model change, look at Holden for christ sakes, most changes they do are cosmetics only. Just give up and admit your a one eyed rabbit and go home to LS1 forums. :voldar02:

Maybe ford should have just stuck another Series III badge on the boot and put some new wheels into production, cause its quite obvious you can't please some no matter how far you go, even when their side does nothing! :

[RED_EL_XR8]

I'll rephrase myself. WE ARE ALL DONE !!

Same old Ford V Holden garbage and the same players, recieving holidays, back from holidays, or due for another holiday.

END!!