Peter Brock overrated?

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

thanx, but it was suggested he drove the jps bmw sports sedan in the early eighties - i can only remember him driving the jane monza in the gt class

i remember the 88 race very well. brock ran through the sandtrap at skyline in front of me and what seemed like seconds later dick spun down conrod, allowing moff into the lead

and 100 laps from that, my world fell apart

I'm with you.

I can't ever remember Brock driving a turbo BMW. The Chev Monza, I remember, as that was about the only time Brocky was involved in a crash.

The point I strongly object to in this thread is the use of the term 'overrated' linked to Peter Brock. He was one of the best drivers of his ilk, fullstop. Whether he was the best ever... well it's a topic that will be debated until the cows come home.

But to finish off on this topic, he was voted as the second best tin top driver of all time (surprisingly, behind Steve Soper) ... but what else would you expect from a British poll.

[ehast13]

In 2003, Motor magazine voted him the fourth best driver in Australia (magazine polls mean little) but, for the sake of interest they had
1 Jack Brabham
2 Jim Richards
3 Alan Jones
4 Peter Brock
5 Mark skaife

SSBaby - The title of the thread is not well thought out, I admit that. But read my comments. I don't think Brock was anything less than freak of nature. A man naturally gifted behind the wheel, behind a set of spanners or behind a table smiling at drooling fans.

I questioned the validity of one journo who was claiming he was the best the world had ever seen.

I wish all the greats had a chance to race against each other in their prime against each other in equal machinery

Moffat vs Geoghan vs BRock vs Jane vs Beechey vs Richards vs Skaife vs Lowndes vs Bowe vs ambrose vs ravaglia vs soper vs walkinshaw etc etc etc

You can very rarely compare apples with apples.

SSbaby - you make a good point. With over a 100 posts and counting, it has been a hell of a thread and I have enjoyed every bit of it so far. I have even learned a few and changed a few of my own views.

Man, I love the internet

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by ehast13

In 2003, Motor magazine voted him the fourth best driver in Australia (magazine polls mean little) but, for the sake of interest they had
1 Jack Brabham
2 Jim Richards
3 Alan Jones
4 Peter Brock
5 Mark skaife

SSBaby - The title of the thread is not well thought out, I admit that. But read my comments. I don't think Brock was anything less than freak of nature. A man naturally gifted behind the wheel, behind a set of spanners or behind a table smiling at drooling fans.

I questioned the validity of one journo who was claiming he was the best the world had ever seen.

I wish all the greats had a chance to race against each other in their prime against each other in equal machinery

Moffat vs Geoghan vs BRock vs Jane vs Beechey vs Richards vs Skaife vs Lowndes vs Bowe vs ambrose vs ravaglia vs soper vs walkinshaw etc etc etc

You can very rarely compare apples with apples.

SSbaby - you make a good point. With over a 100 posts and counting, it has been a hell of a thread and I have enjoyed every bit of it so far. I have even learned a few and changed a few of my own views.

Man, I love the internet

Always good to have a good yarn.

But you mention Lowndes as being one of the 'greats' in that post... but Lowndes has been consistently getting a whipping from his less popular teammate. How is it that Whincup isn't considered greater than Lowndes, to use your level of reasoning, based on results?

[4Vman]

How do you honestly compare different drivers from different era's with different equipment racing in different categories with different rules?

I'll remember Peter for who he was and what he did, his record speaks for itself, how he "ranks" against others is purely speculation and opinion, it's like comparing Footballers from different era's, the sport is far more professional today than it was even 10 years ago, drivers are "over the hill" at 40 now, 15 years ago they raced will into their late 50's... the sport has changed enormously which is why i think its too difficult to "rank" them...

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by ehast13

Gricey drove it too, Jimmy made it win.

I think Brock and Geoghan were the best aussie drivers.

gricey won three races in 1981 - jim won three races in 1983

which geoghan was the equal best driver australia has produced - ian, leo or pete :

[ehast13]

SSbaby - fair point. I was just throwing names together when I put lowndes in there (probably like many journos who raise my ire)

GTXB67 - bad wording on my part. Jimmy made it win, TOO.

Ian and Pete Geoghan are the same person. My favourite quote from Ian/Pete was when his engine blew apart and a journo asked him what happened. He replied

e - e e - e electrical problems (he had a stutter)

The journo said "electrical problems? What sort of electrical problems?"

Ian/Pete replied "The conrod smashed through the side of the b-b-b-block and b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-beat the the alternator to death"

I wish we could see more of that character today!

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by ehast13

Ian and Pete Geoghan are the same person

well done, now bonus points if you can tell me what his full nick name was, who gave it to him and why

seriously though, i am not trying to pick on everything you post. i agree with most of the things you say. it is great that someone actually noticed jim beat brock in the bmw and made the volvo win. he made the mondeo win as well, although brock did not drive that. it seems though probably through accident that some myths about jim are starting up. the sports sedan is an example. gricey made that into a winner and jim drove the developed car. without a doubt, without the adelaide crash involving half of the field, jim would have won virtually all of the races that year, but it was already a winner before jim drove it. this may sound harsh towards your posts, but i am sure you are aware of the many myths that have made the brock legend greater. they make me sick and i feel jim’s career has been so great, it does not need any embellishing.

a lot of the things people remember about brock did not happen. i think you actually posted of bathurst 87, when the commentators both at the track and on tv were telling everyone how fast brock was in the wet, when the nissan’s were hosing him off big time. even the texaco sierrra’s ended up lapping him again and they had a light switch type turbo and their most experienced driver was in only his second start in the race. yet, everyone at home and the track who did not time the cars, thought brock was the fastest out there. i have only known of one journalist who has ever written the facts in that case. there have been many such instances and even some in this thread. one of the things that amazes me, is no one is ever reminded that brock crashed in each bathurst from 1994-1997. virtually his last 4 great race events. 3 of those resulted in a wrecked car, and one (1995 in the shootout) even compromised hrt’s whole weekend. while repairing his car, the team did not have the time to thoroughly go over the mechanicals and failed to notice the head gasket? problem that resulted in both cars out within 32 laps. no journalists ever refer to the accident when reviewing hrt’s failure that year.

i do think when referring to 1988 in the bmw’s, although jim hosed brock off, it should be remembered that brock had been made broke by holden (he deserved it, in my opinion) in the previous year and was also keeping the team together. jim was just driving, so probably had many less things on his mind. jim has also been just a paid driver and has never really had to worry about running a team as moff, brock and others have had. it certainly is easier if you just have to show up and drive. however he has always driven brilliantly and is ranked fourth in my list

once again, i do think brock was over rated by some – and going by this thread, he was obviously under rated by many too. i still rank him equal first with moff and craig

one thing to remember about 88, is that brock did win a race from memory and jim did not. i believe brock won in adelaide (non championship gp meet) when john bowe had fuel starvation problems and lost the lead late in the race

[prydey]

this is a great thread for motorsport history. you guys are a wealth of knowledge : , unless of course you have a couple of books open next to your keyboard. either way, i like it.

i don't under rate brocky but i don't get caught up in a lot of the hype either. like gtxb and ehast, just stick to the facts. one thing that i would say is, 70% of people, if asked why brock is considered such a great driver, would mention 9 bathurst wins. sure its a graet race - its THE great race but for me it is still only A race so whilst it is an awesome achievement in itself it shouldn't be used as the reason to name him the greatest touring car driver. as has been pointed out here, he was at times beaten quite comprehensively.

going slightly off topic, i notice skaife's name comes up every now and then as well. with regard to his 5 touring car titles, i feel the points system at the time contributed to at least 1 or 2 of them. if you won adelaide (both races) and got awarded double points as was the system at the time, you could walk away after 1 round having almost set up your season. points grossly favoured the win which is not all bad but i would suggest that had ambrose raced under the same points system he would without a doubt have 3 titles. r kelly and ingall wouldn't have any. its all a bit 'if and but' though as he did win the races but sometimes if the points table is a bit closer it creates diff pressure. don't take this the wrong way. skaife, at the top of his game, was more than a match for most so i'm not doubting his ability at all. all i'm saying is the history books will show 5 titles which doesn't tell quite the whole story.

here's one from left field. i'm not considering for a moment that he should be considered anywhere in any sort of driving list but most of today's generation, when asked of the abilities of one P.Morris, would say he is useless and shouldn't have a licence. he used to dominate in his bmw though often beating the more financed teams.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by prydey

you guys are a wealth of knowledge :

here's one from left field. i'm not considering for a moment that he should be considered anywhere in any sort of driving list but most of today's generation, when asked of the abilities of one P.Morris, would say he is useless and shouldn't have a licence. he used to dominate in his bmw though often beating the more financed teams.

thanx, it is a benefit of a mispent childhood - except for when on holidays, there probably wasn't a day between the ages of 11 and 24 when i did not read a motor racing book at breakfast at least. i still have them all, but only check on them to get my beliefs right so i do not look too stupid. it hasn't worked all the time though unfortunately

the early days of morris' bmw days were well funded, towards the end probably not so. it is worth remembering that the bmw was a well sorted car that dominated overseas as well, wheras the audi was a lot heavier i believe due to the awd. also any car that frank gardner sets up/watches over would probably be at the potential of the car, so in the bmw case - fast. however i will not suggest morris had never been fast, just stupid. he normally surprises at bathurst until he or the co driver throws it away. he probably has as much talent as many who have not achieved much, but being a boof head he seems to run into everyone - and it is always their fault, which shows he cannot learn either

[ehast13]

You Know, I never thought of the 88 season like that. I suppose it would be easier for Jim than Peter. Add years of driving BMW's and I can see why it might seem a bit one sided.

Regarding stuff people write, I have a old magazine called "Race Car Enthusiast" that talks of Brock Crashing the BMW sports sedan. After further research (prompted by comments on this thread) I have only found reference to Brock Crashing the Chevy Monza. Misprint??? Wouldn't be the first time.

In regards to moffat, I will always be amazed that he got exceedingly fragile Falcons (toploaders near the limit, axles near the limit, valve train, oil surge etc etc) to the end when few others could (especially not at the pace he did it) let alone in first place.

People sometimes comment that he wasn't a natural driver but he seemed to do okay even when he had no time to practice or set up the vehicle (or even when he had to borrow someone elses - Carters' XY, Gossy's XB, guest drives in the A9X or VC HDT).

Moff reckoned that people said that becasue he would spend ages setting up a car. They would say 'Moff's out there getting himslef up to speed' but Moff reckoned that his job was hard enough without having to fit an ill handling car.

I would have loved to have seen what Moff could have acheived if he didn't rely on motorsport for income. Y'know, If he just raced for a top team.

Imagine Moff and Brock together at HDT in the 70's and early 80's! Unbeatable!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ehast13

Imagine Moff and Brock together at HDT in the 70's and early 80's! Unbeatable!

Wash your mouth out with soap and go say a 1000 "hail Clevelands"....

Moff did ok working for the Factory in 70/71...

[ehast13]

Whoops, I mean Imagine Brock and Moff together in a well funded factory ford team run by harry firth and john sheppard.

[bathurst77]

You make some great points there ehast.
Yup moff was known for being gentle on cars, and also true that he did on a few occassions borrow other teams "Good midfield" cars and win in them.

To me moff was the ultimate professional. All hail

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

You make some great points there ehast.
Yup moff was known for being gentle on cars, and also true that he did on a few occassions borrow other teams "Good midfield" cars and win in them.

To me moff was the ultimate professional. All hail

good call - although he did virtually cost ford a victory in 69. his own car had some gearbox problems on lap one and with the pile up he lost too much time, for him to have a chance at victory. the problem for the other guys was, moff did all the testing of the new goodyear rubber. his tyres were in perfect condition throughout the race, but all the so called experienced guys had tyres blow out or go down on them. the reason - moff was much more gentle, so although the tyre was great for him, it was useless for the others. moff and bruce mcphee (half worn michelin xas) were the only gtho's without tyre problems that day



too me he is just awesome. he has always been polite to me, let me sit in his mustang at sandown in 73. proudly told me he finished 6th on debut in the mazda while patting me on my ford cap with almost wishful eyes (sandown 81). he is a very shy person, who needed to psyche himself up to perform. that is why he did not like reporters sticking their microphone into his car while on the grid. that is why he was emotional just after finishing a run (hardies heroes 78) and also cold as steel when racing (bathust 71, when passing bill brown's destroyed ho at mcphillamy while still going flat out).

he became more distant around 82-84 when rivals and media starting complaining about the mazda, suggesting it would win bathurst easily when in reality it never really had a chance. being shy and expecting the profesionalism he always delivered, it forced him to become more distant with the media to a point that he only seemed to be comfortable around his hand picked profesionals that he could rely on. he was truly an icon of our sport

[ehast13]

i saw the interview of him at the Muscle Car Masters. When he spoke of when he was 'given' the transam mustang he got choked up. I always had Moff as my hero (even in a mazda).

When I was in grade twelve, we had to perform a monologue. I chose an extended answer from an Alan Moffat interview. By that time, he was getting on a bit and most only had eyes for brock or Johnson.

It's the reason I still drive an XC with big rubber.

I remember seeing him after one race and his hands were just big blisters.

I often wonder what he could have acheived if he had stuck with ford (if ford had stuck with him) through the xd/xe times. With his mechanical sympathy and attention to detail when preparing (ignore 1980 and 1976), he might have gotten one or two of them to the end when Johnson and his codrivers struggled.

[scj429]

Cool thread, If I can have my two cents worth but Grice was quicker than Brock when they went to Europe with their VK Commodores, Grice lack the mechanical simpathy, and a decent co-driver, needed for the time. He probably would have done better than Brock in the new V8 Supercar era.I think Brock would have struggled to amass nine wins at Bathurst in the current era, no one has a seven lap advantage these days. I enjoyed watching two drivers who never won Bathurst but had World Championships in other categories, Allan Jones and Wayne Gardner. Allan in particular was awesome to watch. The best driver in the world today, Sebastian Loeb, all touring car drivers are thankful that he competes in World Rally!

[ehast13]

good call scj429.

I might have to give some thought to your claims. you might be onto something

[ford man xf]

I know this is an old thread, but I remembered it when I watched the top gear oz episode in which Dick Johnson drove Peter Brocks A9X Torana:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLO3Z7-9dzc

I think I agree more with the OP, I think that Dick Johnsons honest comments at 6:18 about how easy Brock did it (and I dont think he means it in a disrespectful manner or trying to take his crown away, just stating a fact that he had to work his Falcon a lot harder) sum up that the Torana was just more suited to Bathurst as everyone already knew, so drawing a comparison during the Torana years is a bit difficult.

[Pub247]

24 posts before ambrose was mentioned im suprised it took that long on this forum....

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by Pub247

24 posts before ambrose was mentioned im suprised it took that long on this forum....

I've always imagined how V8 Supercars would be if he stuck around, he was an unbelievably consistent and professional driver, I used to love Stonebrothers racing when they had the Ingall/Ambrose team.