So is it the end of the Holden??

[falconnut]

Exactly torq, but its the looming death of Australian designed, tested and manufactured cars that is worrying us all.

[darkside]

remember when ford had to pull back some sponsorship in v8 supercar to survive the ordeal it was going through ,turned out to be the correct move ,and the other worrying thing is if there are no holdens about what are the holden enthusiasts going to drive

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by max_torq

They will still be locally adapting imported LHD cars

They don't do this now for the very good reason that it is a costly and unsustainable exercise to do in large volumes, they will import RHD cars from Euro or Thai plants, all except the next generation Taurus because it will not be available in RHD

[aualright]

Originally Posted by aualright

If I didn't know better I would have thought they were the only Australian govt to provide financial assistance to the car industry. On one hand the Labor govt are bagged for the Button plan and on the other for providing assistance.

Every govt sees the benefit of 'some' assistance for certain industries whilst ensuring they continue to improve efficiency. The conservative side of politics in Aust is no different to the progressive side in this regard (and most others as well).

And pls don't confuse this as political point scoring - it is just a fact of our history, like it or not.

****

To back this up, here is an article from the SMH today regarding the alternative govt's view on this:

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/c...111-1pviw.html

THE federal opposition is rethinking its plan to cut $500 million from car industry assistance as a new political consensus emerges about the need for taxpayer subsidies to protect Australian manufacturing jobs.

The opposition's industry spokeswoman, Sophie Mirabella, and resources spokesman, Ian Macfarlane, finalised a review of manufacturing policy for the Coalition leader, Tony Abbott, late last year.

The Herald understands it recommends that the Coalition review its plan to cut $500 million from the Automotive Transformation Scheme, saying continued subsidies should require long-term investments from the carmakers for models with export potential.
Advertisement: Story continues below

Economists have challenged the efficiency of car industry subsidies. Before the 2010 election the Coalition raised similar concerns about ''industry welfare'', promising to reduce car subsidies by 2015. But more recently Mr Abbott has said car-making was absolutely essential to Australia's status as a ''First World economy''.

The report has yet to be considered by the shadow cabinet, and a decision to reverse the $500 million cut would add to the Coalition's already difficult job of finding billions of dollars in savings to pay for its policies without the government's carbon or mining taxes.

The shift in the Coalition's position comes as the future of Holden's Australian manufacturing operations rests in the hands of federal cabinet, state cabinets and General Motors' international board.

On his way home from meeting auto industry bosses in Detroit, the Minister for Industry, Kim Carr, told the Herald the government wanted to finalise the negotiation ''urgently''.

It has already announced $34 million in funding for Ford Australia to secure a $103 million investment and a promise it will continue operations until 2016.

The Holden co-investment package - which could be sourced from remaining money in the green car fund, research and development programs or new industry programs funded from the carbon tax - must now be agreed by federal cabinet and at a meeting of the GM board. The Victorian and South Australian governments also need to finalise their financial contributions.

It is understood the government wants to secure 900 jobs at Holden's plant at Fishermen's Bend in Victoria as well as more than 3000 manufacturing jobs in Victoria and South Australia.

The acting industry spokesman, Eric Abetz, said yesterday the Coalition supported car manufacturing and accepted the need for co-investment, but the government needed a ''more coherent approach''. Before the last election, Senator Abetz said Australians were suffering from ''auto fatigue'' and were asking ''how long do we have to keep subsidising this industry?''

Coalition sources yesterday said the only alternative to reversing the funding cut was ending all subsidies and ''letting the industry go'', which was unlikely given Mr Abbott's bid to win over Labor's blue-collar heartland.

Labor has attacked the Coalition over its promised funding cut, with the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, saying yesterday, ''what disturbs me is when we've got work to do to keep making sure that the car industry is in the country, that on the other side of politics Mr Abbott's plan is to rip half a billion dollars out of industry support.''

[Luke Plaizier]

Post #124 = Post #114

Lukeyson

[jpd80]

LOL, I love this clanger of a quote from team Red over at drive,
telling it how it really is for a change, bet this drops some jaws.
So to any little closet red shirt fanbois lurking on our boards,
I don't need to be an insider there's enough "blood in the alleys":

LINK
But the question for many Australians rightly remains: how much taxpayer support is too much?
Manufacturing of the Holden Cruze shifted from Korea to Australia last year after General Motors secured $149 million of Federal funds in a three-to-one deal.

Under the agreement, Holden had to invest $447 million in the localisation of the car to receive the $149 million injection, bringing the total to $596 million.

That's rather a lot when you consider Holden spent $1 billion to develop the Commodore and Caprice from the ground up - but they got four cars for that amount of money (sedan, wagon, ute and limousine).

And that's not the only "Iron the fire" that Holden has, nos siree,
they're raking in the cash with massive exports of PPV........

[FPV GTHO]

Mitsubishi spent something stupid like $600m on localisation of 380/Galant as well.

Does plant updates cost THAT much or are they tearing up these cars just for the sake of it.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

I have no idea who the guy was (whether he was an expert or just someone who had something to say) as i never saw the report, but 14,000 sounds about right. If that is correct, then it conflicts quite alot with the experts like Holdens Deveraux and Kim Carr who wants us all to beleive that 60,000 are directly employed in the industry, thus justifying to extraordinary amount of money spent to support so few jobs. As for the other 60,000 jobs that it indirectly supports, that may be true also, but you need to remember that the guy who has a job selling sandwiches at lunch time to the salesman at the Holden dealer will still be employed when Holden go under. He's just going to be selling sandwiches to the salesman at the Hyundai dealer (and will probably end up being the same salesman).

As for every other car making country protecting their industries more than australia. Well firstly we have to remember that this bit of information comes from the same people that say the car industry in australia directly employs 60,000 people (so very doubtful to start with), so he may not have mentioned it because he wanted to stay with facts. Secondly, more in dollar terms may not necessary mean more per car made. Japan would have to be spending around $25 billion dollars a year, to be subsidising their auto makers to the same extent we do per car made.

Just one bit of info about Thailand from Ford Australia directly in a submission to the Fed Goverment,
http://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/p...944/sub051.pdf
read paragraph 6 especially... edit: if you magnify the article it will be easier to read.

And yes Ford benefits from importing from Thailand but it's NOT a level playing field.

[TC200six]

Did anyone here listen to an interview on 4BC radio in Brisbane just earlier?

They interviewed some "expert" and he went on a rant saying the government should stop funding Ford and Holden and let them just die off because Australians don't support them. Do any of us agree that the government is only trying to keep alive an industry that we as Australians do not even want and according to him will only last another 10 years?

The interview hasn't appeared on their website yet, but if it does I'll post the link.

[FPV GTHO]

I dont think either government wants to be the one left in office when inevitably the tough decisions do get made by Detroit.

They might find the right balance of governent assistance to prevent Ford moving resources to Thailand/China and Holden/GM likewise to Korea/China, but i dont think that balance includes this latest ~$200m proposal and the last $149 from Cruze.

[svo supporter]

The businesses around the Holden plant rely fairly heavily on that plant. So if the place goes under, not only the suppliers go bust, so will alot of business round it.


Makes for one big burden on the gov't handout system.

A good solution. Boot all these cheap imports off and allow the local manufacturers to supply the local market.

[jpd80]

Even though Falcon, Ute and Territory sales were pretty low this year, the combined
revenue is around $1.2 Billion which is still around 50% of FoA's total revenue stream.

So those eager to advocate the elimination of 50% of Ford's revenue should also advise
how they intend replacing that income in the immediate future as well as long term.
You can't do it, that's why Ford is still sticking with the locals...

[Pepscobra]

Originally Posted by TC200six

They interviewed some "expert" and he went on a rant saying the government should stop funding Ford and Holden and let them just die off because Australians don't support them. Do any of us agree that the government is only trying to keep alive an industry that we as Australians do not even want and according to him will only last another 10 years?

The simple truth is, we all talk Australian, but don't put our money where our mouth is!

[stevz]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Unless you can prove your own facts (which you have not done in this post), is it very very very hypocritical to say someone elses numbers are wrong & yours are right all in the same post!!!

That's the problem with threads like this, there are too many armchair experts who think they know Holden's/Ford's inner workings as if they were the CEO's, yet they don't have a shred of evidence to substantiate their claims.

[aualright]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Post #124 = Post #114

Lukeyson

Apologies mate but when you said 'Click Here', I didn't.

Your commentary on your 'Click here' made no mention of the Coalition's policy reversal which was the crux of the article.

****

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by stevz

That's the problem with threads like this, there are too many armchair experts who think they know Holden's/Ford's inner workings as if they were the CEO's, yet they don't have a shred of evidence to substantiate their claims.

I call BS.
I post evidence all the time, figures released by Ford and Holden into the public arena.
There are also a lot other people who contribute enormously to these threads with referenced info.

Here's a clue,
"YOU DON"T HAVE TO BE A CEO TO READ PUBLISHED FIGURES"

Just because you are too lazy to do the searches doesn't mean the facts aren't there,


If anything, it is you that's the armchair critic...

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

The simple truth is, we all talk Australian, but don't put our money where our mouth is!

I do... I always look out for Australian made & try to buy Australian made over imports on every purchase I make, even if it costs a little more!! I'm smart enough to know manufacturing in this country is hard & we Australians need to support it, by buying there products!!

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I do... I always look out for Australian made & try to buy Australian made over imports on every purchase I make, even if it costs a little more!! I'm smart enough to know manufacturing in this country is hard & we Australians need to support it, by buying there products!!

Even if it meant buying a Holden/GM car?

[aualright]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

I dont think either government wants to be the one left in office when inevitably the tough decisions do get made by Detroit.

They might find the right balance of governent assistance to prevent Ford moving resources to Thailand/China and Holden/GM likewise to Korea/China, but i dont think that balance includes this latest ~$200m proposal and the last $149 from Cruze.

Very rational and would be interested to hear why you think the latest packages are a concern - sincerely.

****

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Just one bit of info about Thailand from Ford Australia directly in a submission to the Fed Goverment,
http://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/p...944/sub051.pdf
read paragraph 6 especially... edit: if you magnify the article it will be easier to read.

And yes Ford benefits from importing from Thailand but it's NOT a level playing field.

Interesting. The non-tariff trade barrier was a 50% tax placed on vehicles over 3.0Litres. Ford was going to attempt to export reasonable volumes of the Territory up until that point as they were negotiating the FTA. The comment appears to indicate that the 50% tax on the Territory was in comparison to a 20% tax placed on a competitor due only to a vehicle classification difference - as the competitor otherwise had the same engine capacity and passenger carrying capability.

So, why have we not heard of them trying again now that the 2.7Litre Diesel is out and about?


Lukeyson

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Interesting. The non-tariff trade barrier was a 50% tax placed on vehicles over 3.0Litres. Ford was going to attempt to export reasonable volumes of the Territory up until that point as they were negotiating the FTA. The comment appears to indicate that the 50% tax on the Territory was in comparison to a 20% tax placed on a competitor due only to a vehicle classification difference - as the competitor otherwise had the same engine capacity and passenger carrying capability.

So, why have we not heard of them trying again now that the 2.7Litre Diesel is out and about?


Lukeyson

For vehicles below 3.0 litres, there's still a 20% tax....

Territory is classed as an SUV but surprisingly it's competitors are classed as PPV which attracts little or no tax...

[stevz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I call BS.
I post evidence all the time, figures released by Ford and Holden into the public arena.
There are also a lot other people who contribute enormously to these threads with referenced info.

Here's a clue,
"YOU DON"T HAVE TO BE A CEO TO READ PUBLISHED FIGURES"

If that's the case, can you present the published figures regarding transaction prices which you were harping on about earlier in the thread?

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Even if it meant buying a Holden/GM car?

I'm hoping I wont have to make that descison and Falcon will be here for a long time to come!!

[BENT_8]

Im going to make a prediction...

If this thread and the others like it keep going round and round im gonna throw up!

Lets all just agree that none of us want to see either of our preferred local manufacturers going bust and hope that the people getting paid big $$'s to sort this stuff out are worthy of their pay cheques...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by stevz

If that's the case, can you present the published figures regarding transaction prices which you were harping on about earlier in the thread?

all right then look at this, but you don't get the source.


18,000 Falcon sedans at $28,000 = $504 million
7,000 Utes at $28,000 = $196 million
14,000 Territory at $36,000 = $504 million

Total price $1.2 billion

Prove me wrong........

[stevz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

all right then look at this, but you don't get the source.

18,000 Falcon sedans at $28,000 = $504 million
7,000 Utes at $28,000 = $196 million
14,000 Territory at $36,000 = $504 million

Total price $1.2 billion

Prove me wrong........

This means nothing to me. They are not official figures, they are just figures you pulled out of your ***.

[BAGT514]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Mitsubishi spent something stupid like $600m on localisation of 380/Galant as well.

Does plant updates cost THAT much or are they tearing up these cars just for the sake of it.

The plant upgarde at Mitsubishi was going to make it state of the art - with a press large enough to to press out one piece sides (this included redoing very thick concrete structures, changing the building around the press & making completely new tooling to fit the new press, computerised painted body storage that would automatically pick the correct painted car to build down the line (stacking was around 10 cars high) and the paint line had to be completely remodelled because the new car was longer than the old Magna. The body build section with all it's computerised robots all needed to be repositioned & reprogrammed. It all takes money - bucket loads of money.

I know because I worked in the body build section of MMAL when it was happening and was subsequently closed down.....

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by stevz

If that's the case, can you present the published figures regarding transaction prices which you were harping on about earlier in the thread?

C'mon .... settle a bit. You would be very surprised (& a little embarrassed) to find out what some people know about the inner workings of FORD/Holden in these pages and the reasons why. The Forums here are very well populated by some people in the know ...... I know only some of them ....... and I know enough of the hierarchy at Ford to say you had better be a little bit careful on what you are calling BS.

If you do not believe in the figures being touted, please produce some of your own?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by stevz

This means nothing to me. They are not official figures, they are just figures you pulled out of your ***.

Of course I did.
Any Dealer Principle would soon tell you that those ATPs are absolute nonsense, right?....

I'll give you another clue,
75% of Falcons and Utes go to fleets, the ATPs for them are much lower than retail.

Last year Territory was mostly rwd I-6 sales which were mostly $36990 drive aways,
it was not until July/August that Ford started to see +$40,000 ATPs on diesel Territorys..

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

C'mon .... settle a bit. You would be very surprised (& a little embarrassed) to find out what some people know about the inner workings of FORD/Holden in these pages and the reasons why. The Forums here are very well populated by some people in the know ...... I know only some of them ....... and I know enough of the hierarchy at Ford to say you had better be a little bit careful on what you are calling BS.

If you do not believe in the figures being touted, please produce some of your own?

Exactly!

jpd80 doesnt need to expose his source to get any justification, clearly he has done his research on it and is obviously concerned how this will all play out.
Rather than bag him for it perhaps we could thank him for saving us the burden of sifting through page after page and link after link of data on this.