3L - 195kw, 620nm, 6.1L/100km - Build a bloody Turbo Diesel Falcon already!

[jpd80]

Keep shopping around, I'm sure that you will find bulk supplies of the oil at much cheaper prices.
Transmission specialists mut get the stuff from suppliers, it's just a case odf knowing who.
Maybe form a buyer group and get some scales of economy....

If all else fails, factor in $1,000 gearbox services into the desire to have a ZF equipped car,
I know my R6's 5R box is uncomparable but at least any future services don't scare me...

[arm79]

When the time comes to do a flush, I'll shop around. I'd be starting at BMW and Jag dealers before I venture to Ford. At the moment I'm fine since I got a new box and new fluid courtesy of Ford.

I knew these costs existed when I bought the car, so it doesn't bother me. I'm not complaining. The $$$ are factored in for a flush every couple of years.

All I'm saying is that for the uneducated that walk into a dealership and buy a ZF equiped car, it would be a frightening experience when they see the bill.

Considering now, and for the last 12 months, a ZF is the only auto available on the petrol Falcon range, you don't get much choice and its not a desire.

It's a brilliant unit and to me worth every cent. But I wonder if Ma and Pa Kettle would be saying the same thing when they are hit with a yearly $800 bill because they spend 6 months a year towing their caravan around Australia.

[2011G6E]

Phht...the "every 20,000km" service on our turbo diesel Lancruiser was just under $1000, and given the kilometers we do each year, that was happening every nine months or maybe even less. The "in-between" every 10,000 service was a paltry $450.

Off to Ultratune we went...and they laughed that Toyota actually suggested that a modern engine needs its valve clearances adjusted every 20,000km and all the steel diesel injector pipework replaced at 150,000. Se sold it with just over 200,000 on it and it still ran clean and smooth and strong, with the valves not have been "adjusted" for maybe 60,000km.

Sometimes they just see ya coming, you know?

I'd be interested to see a dealership justify a grand to simply flush and refill an automatic box...what are they using, baby seal tears as fluid?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by arm79

All I'm saying is that for the uneducated that walk into a dealership and buy a ZF equiped car, it would be a frightening experience when they see the bill.

Considering now, and for the last 12 months, a ZF is the only auto available on the petrol Falcon range, you don't get much choice and its not a desire.
.

But the majority of people won't do it and could really argue that it's not necessary inside the first 120,000 km.
So that would be approximately 6 years normal driving, plenty of time to bush it and buy another newie.

[Rodge]

My understanding is the ZF requires flusing at 120,000 km's or 6 years whichever comes first, has this changed ?

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Not true,
motor companies have to guarantee emission compliance for a set time,
originally that was around 80,000 km but with Euro 3 & 4, that distance
now become 100,000 km and with Euro 6 it becomes 160,000 km.

Thought Euro5 was 160,000k's?

[steve.zissou]

getting off topic but:
FG xr6turbo ute - 150,000 kms (half with tune 800nm and 300rwkw)
driven on the worst roads in Aus. (no paint left under my splitter)
Used to get a puncture every 10,000 on my 18" wheels (it is that bad) - moved to 45 series and its fine. Wheels and suspension still good (few bent bits under the chasis though)
Oil and filter chnaged every 10k myself (since 50k) ($80 a service)
changed disks at 90k for slotted RDA (avg $125 each) - been great for last 60k.
I have a proper gear box (like 70% or europeans) so no issues there.

Have hit about 5 kangaroos and 1 wombat (slight pannel damage and 2 windscreens) - cheap as to fix.

Car is still bulletproof. No way you'd get that sort of durability and cheap maintanance from a euro or even a Jap car with half the power(last car was a lexus $$$$$)

Just dont go to a dealer and you'll be fine.

I'd get diesel falcons for sales reps if it was my choice ($$$) but the In line 6 turbo is a mgic thing - keep developing that (alum block - direct injection etc)

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Thought Euro5 was 160,000k's?

Yeah thanks for that, I knew the change to 160,000 km was either Euro 5 or 6.
And a Falcon at 250,000 km these days is different to an old 3- speeder with 250,000 km on the clock.
Being able to sit on 1500 rpm for a lot of those miles as opposed to 2300 rpm sure makes a big difference
to engine condition and longevity...

And really, how hard would it have been to grab the T6 Ranger 2.2 diesel and auto and put it into Falcon,
being the same engine as used in Euro Mondeo, I would expect that it would have given brilliant economy
and attracted even more buyers who wouldn't have normally considered Falcon as a car for their needs...

If Ford are ever going to change their image, they need to do it by reinventing the game and by
putting Falcon and Territory over the top as the big car and SUV with all the right answers...

[mik]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Leave the ZF alone, unless you do heavy drag or power work, there's no need to meddle.
If you do then as an enthuiast prepared to spend money to protect your investment, $1000 is cheap.
A few years back, Land Rover forum was saying ZF sell 20 litres of fluid for around $280 direct, might be worth a look...

I am so glad that I don't chase after performance tyres and brakes anymore,
stick with the reliable and dependable 17" alloys on the road and never have a problem.


The specs in the Ford Territory service guide are a bit different to this, ie.:
"Use only automatic transmission fluid which conforms to Ford specification
WSS-M2C919-D. Shell R128 Spec M1375.4 meets this specification."
Capacity is 8 litres if dry or (from the workshop manual) 3.8 litres for a service refill.

totally agree mate, 17`s is about the limit for them to last on our crappy roads imo, unless you are lucky enough to drive on our better qaulity roads , as for the Auto service if you work the car harder towing then surely you would expect to pay a little extra for servicing, and paying only $1000 to lug almost an extra car weight all over the shop seems cheap to me.
someone mentioned how costly it was to service a gearbox on their volksy the other day, it was`nt far behind the zf, and guess what........... there was no towing.

[sudszy]

Just looking at the cost/risk/benefit here.



So how much is one risking by going past the reccommended service interval on a ZF? ie what's a new or rebuilt zf cost?

Typically workshop reccommendations for changing coolant, fluids(other than engine oil) are very conservative.

the tranny isnt going to fail with normal use if it doesnt get its 120 000km service is it? might take at least double that, which could be well past the 15 year mark for most owners.....and rebuilt zFs will be about the price of what a service is now in 15 years?........dont know, just thinking out loud...

Ive had auto trans fail in some of our cars at relatively short intervals 170000km and keep going for ever in some others 700 000km +, just my experience fromt he trannies that failed, it was all about some part that just wasnt designed to go the distance rather than the quality or durability of the oil.

[Deco28]

Caradvice just had a review on the 535d. 220kw, 600NM and 0-100 in 5.7 seconds with a fuel consumption of 6.1l/100km even though they didn't get under 8.1l/100km.

Impressive I know, and yet I'd still buy the 335i, don't know why.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Ive had auto trans fail in some of our cars at relatively short intervals 170000km and keep going for ever in some others 700 000km +, just my experience fromt he trannies that failed, it was all about some part that just wasnt designed to go the distance rather than the quality or durability of the oil.

The same part is not equal, some will fail early and some will go a long time. Keeping good lubrication and impurities out of the oil will extend the life of the unit if you have a part that might fail early.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by vztrt

The same part is not equal, some will fail early and some will go a long time. Keeping good lubrication and impurities out of the oil will extend the life of the unit if you have a part that might fail early.

As i said, the parts failure was nothing to do with the quality of the oil or how clean it was, the parts had just fractured due to fatigue etc.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by sudszy

As i said, the parts failure was nothing to do with the quality of the oil or how clean it was, the parts had just fractured due to fatigue etc.

How clean the oil is can play a big part in how long a component can last. Impurities of 10 micron can start premature wear and cause all sort of problems with components.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by vztrt

How clean the oil is can play a big part in how long a component can last. Impurities of 10 micron can start premature wear and cause all sort of problems with components.

Yes, I understand that can happen, but do you understand what Im saying?

the trannies Ive had that have failed have failed due to basically metal fatigue of just one component, no real visible wear of that item of other items within the trans was a problem when they were pulled down......just damage from that bit when it gave way or ceased to function, the failure of the reversing clutch(whatever the mechanism is) in the bw35 auto comes to mind, it will only last a set number of shifts to reverse. none of this can be attributed to how old the oil was or how clean it was, the failure would still occur even if the fluid was changed every day........going basically on what the trans rebuilders were telling me.

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by Deco28

Caradvice just had a review on the 535d. 220kw, 600NM and 0-100 in 5.7 seconds with a fuel consumption of 6.1l/100km even though they didn't get under 8.1l/100km.

Impressive I know, and yet I'd still buy the 335i, don't know why.

those sort of figures are impressive, diesel is getting better and better, and not just in luxury cars. remember the days when mercedes offered the 240D diesel (in green), and they could only match it with a manual gearbox because the engine was so gutless, how times have changed.

with bmw, the -35d motor is now nearly only par with the -35i motor- both turbocharged, similar power output - but the diesel has more torque and better fuel economy. and the diesel bmw is nearly as fast as the petrol car now.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by sudszy

So how much is one risking by going past the reccommended service interval on a ZF? ie what's a new or rebuilt zf cost?

anyone? suppose its too early and there have been no failures yet?

[naddis01]

All this talk about the zf is great but what about the Merc diesel or potentially putting a diesel in Falcon as per the OP?

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by sudszy

anyone? suppose its too early and there have been no failures yet?

Ask CAT600?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Just looking at the cost/risk/benefit here.



So how much is one risking by going past the reccommended service interval on a ZF? ie what's a new or rebuilt zf cost?

Typically workshop reccommendations for changing coolant, fluids(other than engine oil) are very conservative.

the tranny isnt going to fail with normal use if it doesnt get its 120 000km service is it? might take at least double that, which could be well past the 15 year mark for most owners.....and rebuilt zFs will be about the price of what a service is now in 15 years?........dont know, just thinking out loud...

Ive had auto trans fail in some of our cars at relatively short intervals 170000km and keep going for ever in some others 700 000km +, just my experience fromt he trannies that failed, it was all about some part that just wasnt designed to go the distance rather than the quality or durability of the oil.

Technically there is no service interval for the ZF auto, Ford say its sealed for life and doesn't need servicing. Its better to change the fluid every once in a while but they will still live a long life without it.

Life means 200,000+ kms I think. You can bet that they will last a lot longer than the 4 speed BTR's that start becoming a problem from 180k up. If you can get a 4 speed to last over 220k without servicing it you've done pretty well.

[whales]

Ford wont build a diesel Falcon for at least 18 months after holden put one in a Commodore.
Ford are always 18 months behind Holden.
Imagine a diesel Terry 3 or 4 years ago, the Captiva would have such a strong foothold in the market as it does now.

[my_gxl]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Technically there is no service interval for the ZF auto, Ford say its sealed for life and doesn't need servicing. Its better to change the fluid every once in a while but they will still live a long life without it.

Life means 200,000+ kms I think. You can bet that they will last a lot longer than the 4 speed BTR's that start becoming a problem from 180k up. If you can get a 4 speed to last over 220k without servicing it you've done pretty well.

Life means it will be fine until its out of factory warranty.

My ZF cost $600 to get serviced at Aspley Automatics.

$300 was for the steel pan, so that for later services the filter only can be replaced.
If you want to stick with palstic pan it would be cheaper, however the plastic pan and filter are a unit.

I would suggest calling Motospec in Stafford to check the steel pan price, as I know BTR 4 speed service kits cost under $15 from there. Gotta love public wholesale-just not many people know about it.

New ZF's are about $10,000. Unsure of rebuild costs, however 2nd hand units average $2500.

Oh, and yes, build a diesel falcon to give buyers more choice.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by whales

Ford wont build a diesel Falcon for at least 18 months after holden put one in a Commodore.
Ford are always 18 months behind Holden.
Imagine a diesel Terry 3 or 4 years ago, the Captiva would have such a strong foothold in the market as it does now.

Yeh always 18 months.

I really liked the 2009 supercharged V8 commodore.
Oh and the 2003 6 speed auto commodore.
Come to thing of it the 2001 turbo commodore was a ripper......

Anyone who thinks that people buy holdens because they really want fords but ford just does not have the exact model they dream about should not be on here at the moment as the "One eye fanboi association" are having their weekly after school meeting at maccas car park and you are late.....

[Road_Warrior]

If they fitted the 2.7 TDCi out of the Territory to the Falcon with a manual option I would bet my bottom dollar that it would better the Territory's 8.2L/100klm combined cycle...being a lighter more aerodynamic car and all. Maybe 7.9L/100klm combined cycle?

[mcnews]

Do you really think that it would do better with a manual? Even these latest flash diesels have really narrow torque bands and are ideally matched to autos, or electronically controlled DSGs etc.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by flappist

Anyone who thinks that people buy holdens because they really want fords but ford just does not have the exact model they dream about should not be on here at the moment as the "One eye fanboi association" are having their weekly after school meeting at maccas car park and you are late.....

LOL, on form today Flappy :-)

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by whales

Ford wont build a diesel Falcon for at least 18 months after holden put one in a Commodore.
Ford are always 18 months behind Holden.
Imagine a diesel Terry 3 or 4 years ago, the Captiva would have such a strong foothold in the market as it does now.

No use looking backwards unless you intend going that way....

Yes it would have been nice to have a diesel Territory back then but I can promise you,
the price difference would have been much more than the paltry $3,000 of today's currency rates.
No, I bet it would have been more like $5,000 or even $6,000 and before you say lots of people
would have paid that price, think again because the Territory's audience is a tough crowd, just like Falcon.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Do you really think that it would do better with a manual? Even these latest flash diesels have really narrow torque bands and are ideally matched to autos, or electronically controlled DSGs etc.

Every little bit helps, but I guess mated to a ZF or that 6R80 it would still be good.

I wonder what sort of economy you could get on the highway with that combo...

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Do you really think that it would do better with a manual? Even these latest flash diesels have really narrow torque bands and are ideally matched to autos, or electronically controlled DSGs etc.

One of the guys in the Focus area has a 6sp DSG TDCI Focus and he can't get it to match the fuel economy of his manual one, I guess it comes down to tuning.

[naddis01]

I would have thought the 2.7 TDCi out of the Territory in the Falcon would do low 7's at worst. Our Mazda 6 (near enough to 1600kg) is rated at 5.9L/100km and is averaging only a touch over 6 in real figures.