Are high rise vehicles safe in built up areas?

[The Monty]

I got the privelege of parking next to one at a set of lights and the exhaust was coming straight into my window. Ban them all if they have no legitimate purpose as they are way more dangerous than modded cars that get more defects. Just my 2 cents.

[EL-XRAN]

Originally Posted by sisan

Car parks are the worst places, as the spots are too narrow which causes pain chips when they open their doors.

Yeah agreed for sure man! But it isn't the fault of the 4WD owner (unless they park all wrong), that comes back to the design of car parking bays. I had this exact same conversation the other week with a mate at a KFC joint. He blamed the "bloody 4WD" and I blamed "bastard KFC." 4WD's will always be around, they're part of the Aussie way of life. There is simply no reason that you should need to obtain a separate license to be allowed to drive one and to suggest so is lunacy. The fact that people even consider this as a solution will make bearuocrats everywhere rub their hands together with glee. The people suggesting they should be charged more for a license obviously don't look at the price of Diesoline at the bowser either. It's a less refined, more raw product than any Unleaded will ever be. Diesoline costs more because typically bigger vehicles use it, and this is meant to be a supplement to a levy on licenses, so the people with them are already paying more.

[4.0i_SiX]

Well I own both a lowered Falcon and a Raised Jackaroo...The falcon is lowered purely for looks and the Jackaroo is raised to assist clearance on tough tracks. Should I put my stock springs back in the falcon because its not a legitimate purpose?

Not having a go by the way mate...

[Falcon Coupe]

123 posts of mostly bs, this thread was going nowhere from the start, where is the padlock.

[jabba]

Originally Posted by mustang

think about it for a second......why would u need a car that high in a city......do they feel that the streets of say Melbourne are that bad that they need a big bad A$$ 4x4 to be safe..... not to mention that it prolly has illegal suspension heights.

Well then think about this for a second.... The person that owns that car properly love extreme 4X4ing and would go out 4X4ing quite often. So because of his interest, and love of getting on the beaten track and heading out to the country for a weekend under the stars, he can not live in the city with such a vechile..... Or he could be a country bumpkin that has come into the big smoke to do some business......

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by ltd

First off, I don't own a high performance car. Secondly, you do not know what I do mate so you might not want to be so dismissive of the information and experience I have.
Thirdly, if you naively believe that 4wd vehicles are no more dangerous than a normal sedan then you have typified the very problems that the rest of us motorists face.

Your arguement about how vehicles perform in an impact is so flawed that quite frankly everyone who has read your post is now dumber for having done so. It is this type of unadulterated ignorance that has made the 4wd issue such a big problem in the first place.

As for getting a clue mate, I put it to you that I have a clue and in fact you don't; by the fact that you obviously have no concept of different types of vehicle construction and the resultant concentration of forces, let alone the actual metallurgy of the materials used and their respective tensile strength.
If you would like a clue, perhaps you could spend a night with the local fire brigade and attend some accidents involving 4wd. Or better yet, perhaps you can check with the bureau of statistics and check what average percentage of either sedans or 4wd's have caused the most fatalities. Simply burying ones head in the sand does not make the problem go away, and denial that a problem exists is just fanciful.

Never said you owned a performance car. Just made a generalisation, exactly as you did.

Also never said 4WDs aren't more dangerous than family sedans. Because I know that's not true.

Never made a comment about how any vehicle performs in an accident, let alone 4WDs.

I have a fair idea of the different types of vehicle construction, but I fail to see how you conclude I don't, because I never said anything about it.

Yes 4WDs are more dangerous than family sedans. I'm not even going to try to dispute that, I know they are. I just fail to see how you can claim that 4WDs are to blame for your mate's accident (even though it may come across differently, I'm sorry to hear about). Yes the 4WD may of played a role in it, however if the driver had stuck to the law it wouldn't of happened, plain and simple.

Sorry if I came across as harsh, but I just get sick to death of knee jerk reactions to problems. Yes 4WDs are dangerous. Yes they take a bit more skill to drive. But that doesn't mean they should be taken off the road. There is clearly a problem with the licencing system, which is constantly avoided in favour of banning something. Sadly, banning things that are unpopular with the majority always wins votes over long term solutions.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

I think it's comical that a Territory owner should post this. It's a wonder that all the people with lowered cars dont complain about the height of a Territory's bumpers
.....

Did you have a look at the height of the cruiser?

I really don't understand some of you guys. A legitimate question was asked, answer the question or SHUT UP.

Haven't even given my point of view and I get attacked by people to lazy to give reasons for their view on the subject.

This is a public forum, a Pub at that, people should be able to ask reasonable questions and expect reasonable answers and not get chased away by statements like;
You need a hobby. Like seriously there a so many things that a potentially dangerous, lets all just stay indoors and not leave the house at all
What a load of horse manure!!!!!!!!!!!!
This thread is discriminatory and reeks of envy

Come on guys, give a sensible reason to why you think jacked up 4WD's have the same right to the roads as other vehicles

If the Government asked the same question which answers do you think they would take on board?

[jabba]

Originally Posted by ltd

First off, I don't own a high performance car. Secondly, you do not know what I do mate so you might not want to be so dismissive of the information and experience I have.
Thirdly, if you naively believe that 4wd vehicles are no more dangerous than a normal sedan then you have typified the very problems that the rest of us motorists face.

Your arguement about how vehicles perform in an impact is so flawed that quite frankly everyone who has read your post is now dumber for having done so. It is this type of unadulterated ignorance that has made the 4wd issue such a big problem in the first place.

As for getting a clue mate, I put it to you that I have a clue and in fact you don't; by the fact that you obviously have no concept of different types of vehicle construction and the resultant concentration of forces, let alone the actual metallurgy of the materials used and their respective tensile strength.
If you would like a clue, perhaps you could spend a night with the local fire brigade and attend some accidents involving 4wd. Or better yet, perhaps you can check with the bureau of statistics and check what average percentage of either sedans or 4wd's have caused the most fatalities. Simply burying ones head in the sand does not make the problem go away, and denial that a problem exists is just fanciful.

Well then on that note I think we propose a vote on banning anything that is driven on the road that is bigger the a motorcycle..

[Falcon Coupe]

[QUOTE=johnydep
Come on guys, give a sensible reason to why you think jacked up 4WD's have the same right to the roads as other vehicles
[/QUOTE]

Jacked up cars still have rules binding the modifications, as long as they are legal, no one has a right to knock them, they are not breaking the law.
Edit: btw, I do not own or particularly like jacked up 4wd's.

[max^power]

i certainly wouldn't like riding a motorcycle near one of these big things. car drivers think they can't see motorcycles, what hope in hell has a driver of one of these vehicles have?

cars like the patrol are big enough for the road in my opinion, unless drivers can become more aware of other road users. Seeing the amount of big 4wd's not indicating and not even looking when changing lanes or cornering, i dont think this is going to happen any time soon. as long as the drivers are "safe" they dont care about any other road users. it seems the "i didn't see you" excuse works wonders in getting out of trouble with the law.

just my 2c

[Rapid260]

It comes down to this, "driver Awareness", a responsible drive regardless of age, male or female, be it a 4WD, high performance, or small car, will know there own capabilities, as well as the car’s & will drive accordingly, it is only a minority, the ones that think they know what they are doing, that make it look bad for the rest.

I'm from the west & there is a lot of 4WD’s here, we have a very small city & a lot of open road, & I would say that 99% of the drivers of 4x4 are very good, even the women in the shopping centre car parks are ok, but I do agree that these SUV’s are too big for inner-city driving, & built up area’s, most major city’s in Oz just don’t have the capabilities to handle them, I’ve seen a lot of the east coast & you guys over there seem to have narrower roads due to population build up so I can see that it would be one hell of a problem.

Kev.

[xespac]

End of the day, it comes down to the person behind the car, put an idiot behind a ford sedan, then anyone is at risk... put an idiot behind a 4WD and again, anyone is at risk.... 4WD will do more damage to a ford sedan(for example) then a ford sedan would do to the 4WD.... shouldn't ban any cars from driving in certain areas.... too many stupid laws in place at the moment, we're not going to be free to do what we want anymore!

Why not try get rid of those massive trucks that are 10x bigger then a 4WD from driving down streets just to get home....

[The Monty]

Originally Posted by 4.0i_SiX

Well I own both a lowered Falcon and a Raised Jackaroo...The falcon is lowered purely for looks and the Jackaroo is raised to assist clearance on tough tracks. Should I put my stock springs back in the falcon because its not a legitimate purpose?

Not having a go by the way mate...

Ok, you win, Ive got an open mind and when people put things into a perspective so that I can see both sides of the argument, and both sides have at least some reason, I accept both sides. So yes I agree that they shouldnt be not around because the modifications are for no legit pourpose but I also disagree as to confuse myself and everyone else. :

On another note, I think police should have a major crackdown on pushbike riders (the racing type ones). Like I said before, just my 10 cents. :

[red_hotxr6]

If you ban them then you are going to have to ban trucks, buses etc etc. Remember a gun can kill but it is the person using it that does it .These things have as much right on the road as other vehicles, it is the person behind the wheel that causes the problem.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

Never said you owned a performance car. Just made a generalisation, exactly as you did.

Also never said 4WDs aren't more dangerous than family sedans. Because I know that's not true.

Never made a comment about how any vehicle performs in an accident, let alone 4WDs.

I have a fair idea of the different types of vehicle construction, but I fail to see how you conclude I don't, because I never said anything about it.

Yes 4WDs are more dangerous than family sedans. I'm not even going to try to dispute that, I know they are. I just fail to see how you can claim that 4WDs are to blame for your mate's accident (even though it may come across differently, I'm sorry to hear about). Yes the 4WD may of played a role in it, however if the driver had stuck to the law it wouldn't of happened, plain and simple.

Sorry if I came across as harsh, but I just get sick to death of knee jerk reactions to problems. Yes 4WDs are dangerous. Yes they take a bit more skill to drive. But that doesn't mean they should be taken off the road. There is clearly a problem with the licencing system, which is constantly avoided in favour of banning something. Sadly, banning things that are unpopular with the majority always wins votes over long term solutions.

For the record, I don't want them banned.
I would like the incentives to buy them over a normal vehicle removed, because sadly they are getting into the wrong hands.
What I would also like, is for drivers of 4wd vehicles, particularly the 3pm school mum brigades, to be tested and taught to drive them specifically. Just the same as how you now need a seperate endorsement for a manual if you have only been taught on an auto. Of course I do not say that all 4wd drivers are bad - the large number of which are serious enthusiasts do take into account their vehicles dynamics and drive them accordingly. I do however see the problem with arrogant drivers who use them in the city yet never take them off road. To me, that kind of 4wd ownership is unnecessary - and they should be banned from Versace wannabe Yuppies.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Should these things be allowed in built up areas, such as cities & suburbs?



Imagine the damage of hitting or being hit by something that high, a side impact would be deadly.

Driving it feels like driving a cloud, it floats with the wind & road bumps; not dangerously so, but enough to make relaxed driving difficult. At 60km/h it feels like your doing 80, it has all the right type of gear underneath.

Yes, I see no problem allowing a car into a built-up area, which suit my 4WD just fine, provided you don't drive down an inner city laneway.

[gmhdriver]

To those who are saying that if 4WD's were banned then they would have to ban trucks and buses too:
Trucks have a specific purpose and are essential for the transportation of goods. Have you ever seen the little signs on the back of trucks which say "Without trucks Australia stops". Same with buses - they are an essential part of public transport.

Soccer mums in their 4WD's however, could transport their kids to school in a normal sedan just as well as they can in their 4WD's. It is not essential for them to have a 4WD. That's the difference.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by pb02

I agree totally. The licensing system is far too easy. I think that advanced driving courses should be a mandatory part of obtaining a license.

ADVANCED? No. If you said "defensive" then yes.

Licensing and testing needs to be revised for all forms of road transport!

It is, right now. The NSW graduated system has been adopted by SA with VIC and QLD studying the concept, see their websites. Some modification to the program in all jurisdictions will take place.

FURTHER, for the first time in Australian driving history, the Commonwealth kicked off last year a pilot National Driver Training Scheme, this initially includes VIC, NSW and Commonwealth sharing the cost burden, after three years the results will be examined thoroughly.

The first lot of pupils will be chosen in early 2006 from NSW and VIC. The program will weed out those with certain behavioural traits, loopies and the like who will be targetted for additional behavioural correction. This Course will include some required on-road tuition, our then Federal Transport Minster (Anderson) insisted on this, the emphasis throughout the program will be DEFENSIVE DRIVING.

Advanced driving will be left completely outside the program, to those involved in motorsport and certain security industries and individuals so requiring or desiring.

It is a start. My view is the NSW system is the nations best, IS being improved. Noticable change however does take time and costs money, the program MUST be able to be implemented on an affordable basis from Broome to Taree.


GMHDriver wrote: "Soccer mums in their 4WD's however, could transport their kids to school in a normal sedan just as well as they can in their 4WD's. It is not essential for them to have a 4WD. That's the difference".

What is a soccer mum? Sounds kinda Yank speak. Is this a Westie or Bogan?? Regardless, my sister in law lives at Balgowlah Heights in Sydney, she owns a current Nissan Patrol, bears two kids.

By Scuby definition she is evil. My question is - when she drives away up to her Wollombi property, should she stop using the 4WD and call for help each time the family Falcon bogs on approach to the front of the property?

As soon as you folk accept it is not the vehicle at fault the better.

[gmhdriver]

Originally Posted by gmhdriver

To those who are saying that if 4WD's were banned then they would have to ban trucks and buses too:
Trucks have a specific purpose and are essential for the transportation of goods. Have you ever seen the little signs on the back of trucks which say "Without trucks Australia stops". Same with buses - they are an essential part of public transport.

Soccer mums in their 4WD's however, could transport their kids to school in a normal sedan just as well as they can in their 4WD's. It is not essential for them to have a 4WD. That's the difference.

And just to add to that, at least truck and bus drivers are properly trained and licenced to drive these vehicles.

[nang3]

Originally Posted by The Monty

On another note, I think police should have a major crackdown on pushbike riders (the racing type ones). Like I said before, just my 10 cents. :

Damn straight!!! im sick of these to$$ers hogging the road, slowing traffic and forcing drivers to overtake them when there is a perfectly good, smooth cycle path with lane markings right next to the road.

I dont care when there is no cycle path, but when there is and they still insist on using the road, it just makes me want to run over some spandex!! On another note - Men should not wear spandex!! : :

[gmhdriver]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

GMHDriver wrote: "Soccer mums in their 4WD's however, could transport their kids to school in a normal sedan just as well as they can in their 4WD's. It is not essential for them to have a 4WD. That's the difference".

What is a soccer mum? Sounds kinda Yank speak. Is this a Westie or Bogan?? Regardless, my sister in law lives at Balgowlah Heights in Sydney, she owns a current Nissan Patrol, bears two kids.

By Scuby definition she is evil. My question is - when she drives away up to her Wollombi property, should she stop using the 4WD and call for help each time the family Falcon bogs on approach to the front of the property?

Well if she lives in a country area and needs a 4WD to access her property then that is acceptable - she is obviously using that vehicle for its intended purpose. This discussion is focusing on the use of these vehicles in metropolitan built up areas, where they are totally unnecessary and are purchased simply for the **** factor.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by gmhdriver

Well if she lives in a country area and needs a 4WD to access her property then that is acceptable - she is obviously using that vehicle for its intended purpose. This discussion is focusing on the use of these vehicles in metropolitan built up areas, where they are totally unnecessary and are purchased simply for the **** factor.

No!

The discussion is suposed to be focusing on jacked up 4WD's, designed for rock climbing, being driven as a daily commuter in built up areas.

[gmhdriver]

Originally Posted by johnydep

No!

The discussion is suposed to be focusing on jacked up 4WD's, designed for rock climbing, being driven as a daily commuter in built up areas.

It doesn't really make a difference to me, all 4WD's are 'jacked up' IMO, just some more than others. A Landcruiser at standard height t-boning a sedan would be likely to do just as much damage as the raised landcruiser in the pic.
The only difference is that the raised version would probably be more susceptible to rollovers.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by gmhdriver

Well if she lives in a country area and needs a 4WD to access her property then that is acceptable - she is obviously using that vehicle for its intended purpose. This discussion is focusing on the use of these vehicles in metropolitan built up areas, where they are totally unnecessary and are purchased simply for the **** factor.

Okay, thanks dad - when she's out driving in suburbia in it - I'll call her a ****er and drop my pants in expectation, though my brother would probably kill me!

My serious point being, folk should not assume that in sighting a 4WD in the city areas that they are not ever used outside them, or later sold so. One thing is certain, I reside north of the horrible and disgusting place known as Sydney, our land prices skyrocket yearly - as Sydney buyers both purchase holiday homes and land, immigration is an issue in this boom too, but that is another thread.

[gmhdriver]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

Okay, thanks dad - when she's out driving in suburbia in it - I'll call her a ****er and drop my pants in expectation, though my brother would probably kill me!

My serious point being, folk should not assume that in sighting a 4WD in the city areas that they are not ever used outside them, or later sold so. One thing is certain, I reside north of the horrible and disgusting place known as Sydney, our land prices skyrocket yearly - as Sydney buyers both purchase holiday homes and land, immigration is an issue in this boom too, but that is another thread.

While I agree with your theory, the point is that a large majority of large 4WD's purchased are never taken off road and never even leave the metropolitan area. I have no problem with people who buy these vehicles to use them for an intended purpose, even if it's once a year or so. It's the people who buy these vehicles simply as a fashion accessory or to keep up with the Jones's that get up my nose.

[PhatBat]

Originally Posted by THE_RAVEN

Simple Answer No!

Can you dumb that down a bit cause I didn't quite understand yer answer
Just Kidding

In all seriousness.........I think they're Ok but it is the drivers that need to be better informed.

I guess it's just because 4x4's are seen as nothing more than a big car when in fact, they are a small truck.

(and) yes there IS a difference. Fourbies have poor visiblility, poor braking charachteristics, top heavy, understeering and underbraking just like a small truck.

Cheers

[ltd]

Originally Posted by gmhdriver

While I agree with your theory, the point is that a large majority of large 4WD's purchased are never taken off road and never even leave the metropolitan area. I have no problem with people who buy these vehicles to use them for an intended purpose, even if it's once a year or so. It's the people who buy these vehicles simply as a fashion accessory or to keep up with the Jones's that get up my nose.

Not wishing to harp on with the same vibe here but again, these vehicles are commercial vehicles and as such, attract much less taxation on them over any other car. This is why so many mum and dad investors as well as small business people are buying them, because they finance the vehicles through a business, then they avoid FBT which every company car attracts through the 4wd being a commercial vehicle.

Seriously, the proliferation of the tossers that never go off road is because investment advisors over the last 5-10 years have been advising these very people of the merits financially for a 4wd over a sedan.

GMHDriver, your posts have been very insightful and rational, and as such, display a high level of intelligence and maturity. Are you sure you don't really drive a ford?

[herbs]

Originally Posted by PhatBat

Can you dumb that down a bit cause I didn't quite understand yer answer
Just Kidding

In all seriousness.........I think they're Ok but it is the drivers that need to be better informed.

I guess it's just because 4x4's are seen as nothing more than a big car when in fact, they are a small truck.

(and) yes there IS a difference. Fourbies have poor visiblility, poor braking charachteristics, top heavy, understeering and underbraking just like a small truck.

Cheers

Actually................ the car recently found to be the worst for blind spots and all goes to.........the Commodore. (Many other cars also suffer from this, not just bashing the Holden) One cannot seriously say that my trayback Landcruiser has worse visibility than a car, surely? _2:

[gmhdriver]

Originally Posted by ltd

Not wishing to harp on with the same vibe here but again, these vehicles are commercial vehicles and as such, attract much less taxation on them over any other car. This is why so many mum and dad investors as well as small business people are buying them, because they finance the vehicles through a business, then they avoid FBT which every company car attracts through the 4wd being a commercial vehicle.

Seriously, the proliferation of the tossers that never go off road is because investment advisors over the last 5-10 years have been advising these very people of the merits financially for a 4wd over a sedan.

That is an interesting point - I haven't actually looked at it that way before. Although I would have to question how many people acutally buy a 4WD for this specific purpose and while I am no accountant, I would tend to think that any savings made would be offset by higher purchase price, higher fuel and maintenance costs and higher registration and insurance costs.

Originally Posted by ltd

GMHDriver, your posts have been very insightful and rational, and as such, display a high level of intelligence and maturity. Are you sure you don't really drive a ford?

Err, no, I drive a Holden and I think that your perception that Ford drivers are all brain surgeons while Holden drivers are all uneducated bogans is rather naive. Both these brands of cars are driven by such a diverse range of people that it is silly to form such perceptions. Sure, you may see a Commodore going down the street driven by a stupid 18yo bogan, but what's to say that the next Commodore coming down the street isn't driven by a person with 3 university degrees? There are stupid / immature and intelligent / mature people in both camps. Anyway, back on topic.

Originally Posted by herbs

Actually................ the car recently found to be the worst for blind spots and all goes to.........the Commodore.

The Commodore was found to have the worst blind spots in reversing situations, not in normal forward driving.

[Rapid260]

Originally Posted by The Monty

Ok, you win, Ive got an open mind and when people put things into a perspective so that I can see both sides of the argument, and both sides have at least some reason, I accept both sides. So yes I agree that they shouldnt be not around because the modifications are for no legit pourpose but I also disagree as to confuse myself and everyone else. :

On another note, I think police should have a major crackdown on pushbike riders (the racing type ones). Like I said before, just my 10 cents. :

Im with you on theis one mate, push bike riders, they should not be allowed on the road.