4 young teens lost their lives last night because the driver was showing off

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

But a few posts ago you were saying it wasn't car controll skills they needed...

So I never proposed that!

I was proposing that road skills save your bacon, more than car craft. You need both to survive!

Most young drivers start with little of either, Passing the P-plate test is a recognition of a basic attainment of these skills.

Some kids have attained excellent car craft skills by the time they get there licence, that's great, but its only part of the equation.

Every entry level advanced driving course will attempt to point this out! It's also the reasoning behind to much advanced car skill training too quickly.

Road Skills and Car Craft you need them both.

[EA2BA]

Anyone can be a good driver regardless of age/experience.
Anyone can be a bad driver regardeless of age/experience.
Anyone can have a accident regardless of driving skill or lack of it.

Road rules and speed limits exist for a reason, the road has been engineered or deemed to be rated for a certain speed for safety reasons, if you wish step outside of the safety rating and break the road rules then please go hand in your licence, sell your car, and learn to walk and catch public transport as you really are the mance to society that the media wish to lynch and for good reason.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Fair enough mate, I wasnt talking specifically about you anyway, but you are one driver. Can you vouch for every other P Plater in your state that their abilities are the same as yours? Policy is built for the majority of a population target, not single cases. Can you honestly say the majority of P platers do not require limitations and that all of their skills developed from our joke of a licensing system are of a high quality? Can you vouch that they are all mentally developed enough to even drive(Its a medical fact that our brains continue to grow and mature into our twenties).

As I said, policy is made for the bulk of a targeted population, if you fall into a minority, thems the brakes im afraid.

yes you hold an extremely valid point, i only know of 5 people personally, to all your other points i must answer no.

Originally Posted by SunDrifter

How is it not a good law? If you average "teen hoon" (note, i'm now talking about hoons and not P platers) isn't able to reach 150kph and slam into a powerpole (or your car, or your girlfriend walking her dog), because his car is too slow to bother drag racing, how is that NOT good?

Answer these questions too.

How can the average person have enough real "road experience" for some restriction rules to not save lives?

Restriction rules are good enough for motorbikes, why not for cars?

Practically any car is capable of reaching 150km/h.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Heeno

my parents did it because they didn't want me to become another statistic, they thought if i learnt the dangers and skills of driving at an early age, i would have a better chance surviving on the road then if i learn't for 6 months on L's and going straight out. now what is wrong with that? the way i see it they did me a huge favour.

What is wrong.. Umm lets see a bunch of broken QLD road laws for a start. An uninsured vehicle, driven by an underage driver, illegally on a public road. Yeah I might see a few things wrong with that, can you spot it too Mr Do-Bee?

If your family were prepared to risk the farm if this training regeime had gone wrong, cos that would be the cost, then I can come part way to uderstanding where you have developed you concept of acceptible risks.

[SunDrifter]

Lizardmech, that wasn't an answer, it wasn't helpful, and it lookst like it was deleted. I'm sorry if my reasoning degrades your answers to poorly formed insults. I don't think it really helps your arguement though.

But for your info. My first car would not go 150kph, cretin-like it may have been. I'm only suggesting that if "hoons" could not own, and [sic] drag race in fast cars, it would likely reduce the amount of "hoons" running around and writing off my girlfriends car and injuring her neck and back.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

What is wrong.. Umm lets see a bunch of broken QLD road laws for a start. An uninsured vehicle, driven by an underage driver, illegally on a public road. Yeah I might see a few things wrong with that, can you spot it too Mr Do-Bee?

If your family were prepared to risk the farm if this training regeime had gone wrong, cos that would be the cost, then I can come part way to uderstanding where you have developed you concept of acceptible risks.

and i now see where your comming from, you just like to look for an argument,sad really.
so how exactly and why does this affect you?
you think i would have learnt more or been a better driver if i waited till i was 16?

Originally Posted by SunDrifter

Lizardmech, that wasn't an answer, it wasn't helpful, and it lookst like it was deleted. I'm sorry if my reasoning degrades your answers to poorly formed insults. I don't think it really helps your arguement though.

But for your info. My first car would not go 150kph, cretin-like it may have been. I'm only suggesting that if "hoons" could not own, and [sic] drag race in fast cars, it would likely reduce the amount of "hoons" running around and writing off my girlfriends car and injuring her neck and back.

Hoons arnt hoons because of the car they drive. People like you are happy to implement these kind of laws because they don't affect you despite the fact, almost any car you can buy these days will do 200km/h, the only state with restriction hasn't done any better than states without restrictions and most of the "performance" models come with more safety features.

[SunDrifter]

Heeno, as mentioned, I also learned to drive (and 4wd) from an early age (except, i was on private roads etc), and that experience does help, but its not road experience, and doesn't entitle anybody to jump into a powerful car on their P's IMO.

I don't think anybody is insinuating that you'd be a better driver is you started later on the road, but legally it would have been better for all parties to keep it off the road until your legal.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Heeno

and i now see where your comming from, you just like to look for an argument,sad really.
so how exactly and why does this affect you?
you think i would have learnt more or been a better driver if i waited till i was 16?

Maybe your not the only teen superstar that there ever was, who was capable of handling a car well before he got his P's.

I know this story all too well, mainly speaking from a viewpoint of been there done that. I survived, and it was more good luck than good management, and went to quite a few funerals of those that didn't.

The prangs can and do happen, I drove for 18 months at 11/10s and every time someone else did something stupid I hit them. Bit by bit you realise your actual abilities and realise how little that pitching a car quickly through a u-turn has to do with them.

I survived! Will you? My motives, yeah I don't mind a well mannered debate, but I was hoping to pass on a few ideas with out sounding like the RTA safety squad. Up to you whether you choose to listen or remain in the shell of invincibility.

[Laminge]

Do some of you people actually read what you type?

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by SunDrifter

Heeno, as mentioned, I also learned to drive (and 4wd) from an early age (except, i was on private roads etc), and that experience does help, but its not road experience, and doesn't entitle anybody to jump into a powerful car on their P's IMO.

I don't think anybody is insinuating that you'd be a better driver is you started later on the road, but legally it would have been better for all parties to keep it off the road until your legal.

that the thing i did have road experience, driving along side other cars, stopping at red lights, driving into fuel stations the exact same things im doing today, i can just do it legally now thats all. mate my car has no power, i can get up a oily hill and not spin the wheels it that gutless.
it has been and gone, never caused an accident, never hit a bin or pole, infact the only 2 crashes i have had, one being on a cane farm hacking around and hit an inbankment...wow, and the other one was because i went past my limits, funny i would have been dead if i never knew how to control sudden fish tailing of a car...120 into a wall isn't fun, mind you i never went past my limits after that one.

[SunDrifter]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Hoons arnt hoons because of the car they drive. People like you are happy to implement these kind of laws because they don't affect you despite the fact, almost any car you can buy these days will do 200km/h, the only state with restriction hasn't done any better than states without restrictions and most of the "performance" models come with more safety features.

I beg to differ, I put it to you that a hoon in a v8, or turboed car will be much more likely to drag race, and achieve illegal speeds than somebody in a kia rio or similar.

Sure there are cars turbo and supercharged cars that should be exempt from a restriction rule, but that's not the point i'm argueing

You can't honestly tell me in one sentence that all cars will do 200kph and then suggest that performance models are better on safety. We have safety standards now.

And don't give me that "people like you" business mate, i've been in a slow car on my L's and P's and moved along to my XR6 now, I have never caused an accident, and I saw what a hoon did to my girlfriends car, her neck and her back. And it all doesn't change the fact that "hoons" in fast cars are causeing accidents and hurting/killing innocent people.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Laminge

Do some of you people actually read what you type?

I dont, I use the Force.

[bindi]

You know what I have found did the "calming down" thing? Having kids.

Once I had kids in my car I realised how quite horrifying it is to have little lives depending on you and how it could all end in the blink of an eye. So I have not only slowed down, but tried desperately to keep on top of car repairs so that our cars are as safe as I can make them.

I will add my opinion into this debate - not that it's wanted... :

1) Stopping P platers from driving "high powered" cars will not reduce the road toll for that age group. The benefits of driving Dad's Calais as opposed to my 88 rolla are the safety provisions built into the Calais. My rolla is a death trap in comparison. They are not allowed to drive the Calais yet they can drive the rolla - and guess what? My rolla can go over 110kph without a problem, just like the Calais can.

2) If they want to help with the road toll, they should make safer cars - and indeed, make safer cars MORE AFFORDABLE. Get every P plater into a Volvo or Subaru and it will make a difference.

And leave Heeno alone Red... he's just young ffs. Having an argument with you is like banging your head against a brick wall repeatedly, and I know which one I would prefer to do. :

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Hoons arnt hoons because of the car they drive. People like you are happy to implement these kind of laws because they don't affect you despite the fact, almost any car you can buy these days will do 200km/h, the only state with restriction hasn't done any better than states without restrictions and most of the "performance" models come with more safety features.

True

It would be quite interesting if they released the details of every fatal car crash in a High Po car compared to normal POS cars. I assumed it hasnt been done before but if it has someone post it. When I have figures that there has been more deaths in Hi Po compared to POS then i will be convinced.

Seeing as though they reckon your more likely to die in a Hi Po car where is the evidence to prove it. I dunno but to me crashing at 200km/h is still 200km/h regardless of car type.

I see more POS cars speeding than Hi Po. Im not saying that people with Hi Po dont speed at all but the vast majority in my experience have been bogans in POS which they dont care if they crash them.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Maybe your not the only teen superstar that there ever was, who was capable of handling a car well before he got his P's.

I know this story all too well, mainly speaking from a viewpoint of been there done that. I survived, and it was more good luck than good management, and went to quite a few funerals of those that didn't.

The prangs can and do happen, I drove for 18 months at 11/10s and every time someone else did something stupid I hit them. Bit by bit you realise your actual abilities and realise how little that pitching a car quickly through a u-turn has to do with them.

I survived! Will you? My motives, yeah I don't mind a well mannered debate, but I was hoping to pass on a few ideas with out sounding like the RTA safety squad. Up to you whether you choose to listen or remain in the shell of invincibility.

i hear what your saying, but your not hearing me, when people state that p plater have no experience and should have all these laws and restrictions laid on them, it p!sses me and the other few off that are actually decent and have more experience then most, suffer. It just makes things harder and more restrictions to be put in place and it doesn't help when anyone on a p plate licence, is labeled as a hoon, inexperienced fool, thinks he's invincible sh!t like that.

i just want people to know that not all p platers are like the twit in t'ville

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by bindi

You know what I have found did the "calming down" thing? Having kids.

Now there's an interesting basis for a government initiative

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by bindi

You know what I have found did the "calming down" thing? Having kids.
...........
And leave Heeno alone Red... he's just young ffs. Having an argument with you is like banging your head against a brick wall repeatedly, and I know which one I would prefer to do. :

Procreation is no way to cure a youth road toll it will ultimately just worsen the numbers in the lower age brackets..

And whats this you won't argue with me? Your just jealous that I'm always right! : (even when I'm wrong..)

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Now there's an interesting basis for a government initiative

Its called the Federal Baby Bonus.

[Heeno]

about the high pow cars, most of the ones i see in brissy are generally quite good, i pass them and im doing the speed limit!!! there is always the occasional lead foot but most of the ones i have seen here are pretty good

Originally Posted by SunDrifter

I beg to differ, I put it to you that a hoon in a v8, or turboed car will be much more likely to drag race, and achieve illegal speeds than somebody in a kia rio or similar.

Sure there are cars turbo and supercharged cars that should be exempt from a restriction rule, but that's not the point i'm argueing

You can't honestly tell me in one sentence that all cars will do 200kph and then suggest that performance models are better on safety. We have safety standards now.

And don't give me that "people like you" business mate, i've been in a slow car on my L's and P's and moved along to my XR6 now, I have never caused an accident, and I saw what a hoon did to my girlfriends car, her neck and her back. And it all doesn't change the fact that "hoons" in fast cars are causeing accidents and hurting/killing innocent people.

How many new cars can't do 160-200km/h? I can only think of a few uncommon cars like citreon C3s and dihatsu copens that might struggle to reach these speeds. When I was in europe I saw a base model manual astra do 200 down a slight hill. Theres not that much between modern cars and performance models, look at the BFYB lap times in the latest motor mag there was something like 10 seconds between a 1.5 suzuki hatch and a hsv on semi slicks.

[Laminge]

No I was not making reference to Red or Sourbastard.

High powered or not.

After 20 years of driving, the only thing I have mastered is backing out of my driveway, the rest is an unkown.

[SunDrifter]

I don't disagree with you Lizardmech, most new cars can do excessive speed. But my arguement is rather that persons "hooning" are more likely to be in a HiPo car.

But continue argueing for hoon rights anyway. You, or somebody like you will see my point. Eventually. I just hope its not your friends after you or one of your mates write themselfs off. This topic is about some poor soles killed because of a hoon, remember that.

[Au2falcons]

If I may throw my 2cents in.

Firstly my condolences to family of those who lost their lives.

The following is not intended to be aimed at any particular persons or age group.

The way I see things is that driving is not a right. It is a privelage. What right we have, is the right to live. A car is a weapon, it can kill the driver, the passengers or anyone outside of it. I am 22 and by no means an experienced driver. I have been involved in one incident where another driver has collided with me because they didn't check their blind spot. Thankfully no one was injured. We are all human and make errors, I do, and sometimes wonder why i've made such stupid judgements.

When I was 18 I was given the worst news possible that two of my friends were killed and another two were critically injured. They were coming back from the movies when two cars that were racing, ran a red light and flattened their excel. I went to see Daryl in hospital, i've never seen such a sickening sight, he had more hoses and wires plugged in to him then under the bonnet of a japanese car. How he walked out of the hospital 3 months later we can only call a miracle. A year after when I met Daryl again, he was not the same, the real Daryl was dead.

When we drive our cars we become responsible for everyone elses lives around us, including our own lives. To those who don't care about their own lives at least have the heart to give a stuff about everyone elses.

To committ murder is a crime. To speed, drink and drive, drive irresponsibly, street race etc. is the same crime because it will have the same outcome.

The government can intoduce as many laws as they like, at the of the day it comes down to us, we are responisble for our actions, no one else.

There are appropriate places where the rules on our roads don't apply, make use of them.

I will never enjoy any other hobby more than being a car enthusiast. Though we need to remeber that we have to same responsibilities as those who own a firearm for recreation purposes.

Sorry for the long winded one, just my opinion

Cheers

Adrian

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by SunDrifter

This topic is about some poor soles killed because of a hoon, remember that.

And the car he was driving wasnt Hi Po.

The only accident i can remember involving a High Po car was that R34 GTR. Other than that i cant think of any other fairly recent story of the type.

[gozza]

i rememeber a lambo driver up here was seen driving erratic then crashed and ended upside down

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

And the car he was driving wasnt Hi Po.

The only accident i can remember involving a High Po car was that R34 GTR. Other than that i cant think of any other fairly recent story of the type.

Gee, i guess it doesnt happen then, considering the police drop all evidence of vehicle fatalities at your place for error checking before they hand it in to the chief.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Gee, i guess it doesnt happen then, considering the police drop all evidence of vehicle fatalities at your place for error checking before they hand it in to the chief.

I never said it didnt happen but i see and hear bout more POS cars crashing than Hi Po cars.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I never said it didnt happen but i see and hear bout more POS cars crashing than Hi Po cars.

So everything you know is based on what you hear from the media?

To recap, you have no evidence for either line of argument beyond "what ma lets me watch on the teliovision afta schoool."

Your conclusion that it wasnt a Hi Po car is interesting too, as theres more then enough folks with cars on this forum which from the outside look stock, but are far from it where the drive line is concerned.

But I digress, I'm sure you and Ray Martin are correct.