VE Commodore: Watch this space!!!

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by HSE2

When Ford does introduce similar features to Holden they are inevitably of a better standard and design. That hasn't really helped them on the sales chart though. With VE, Holden haven't cut the corners to the same degree that they historically do.

That's because Ford still have the mindset "if you build the better car then it will sell itself". Holden has proved this is wrong once BA and VY competed against each other. Holden's loyalty/fan base is still far greater then Ford's so you if you rely on badge buyers only Holden still wins while Holden still competes far more aggresively in fleets and so beats Ford as well. Then again Ford's profits on the volume they sell is far greater, might not win the local pub pis***g contest....

Holden might not have cut corners as much INITIALLY when VE came off the drawing boards but the world situation has changed enormously for all, parent company finances, fuel prices and large car sales drops being the 3 biggest problems. The VE base car is too expensive for GM US and this has burned Holden as their ammortisation costs have been blown out of the water. Hence as mentioned above, huge cost cutting program leading to far more O/S sourcing and delays in releasing VE. Ford are not in the same boat as Orion was based on fixing some of the current BA/BF problems, weight and fuel economy plus the remaining carry-over AU body structures such as A-pillar & head to leading edge space, rear door opening widths (esp LWB cars) and passing of the T steering to Falcon.

Without sounding arrogant, if Holden's improvement from VZ to VE is only 50-60% replicated by BA/BF to Orion and new Falc's styling (subjective I know) is as described then the Orion will be the better car, it's just the marketing support that needs to be 100% as equivalent to Holdens to finally rein in Commodores greater sales numbers.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

That's because Ford still have the mindset "if you build the better car then it will sell itself". Holden has proved this is wrong once BA and VY competed against each other. Holden's loyalty/fan base is still far greater then Ford's so you if you rely on badge buyers only Holden still wins while Holden still competes far more aggresively in fleets and so beats Ford as well. Then again Ford's profits on the volume they sell is far greater, might not win the local pub pis***g contest....

Holden might not have cut corners as much INITIALLY when VE came off the drawing boards but the world situation has changed enormously for all, parent company finances, fuel prices and large car sales drops being the 3 biggest problems. The VE base car is too expensive for GM US and this has burned Holden as their ammortisation costs have been blown out of the water. Hence as mentioned above, huge cost cutting program leading to far more O/S sourcing and delays in releasing VE. Ford are not in the same boat as Orion was based on fixing some of the current BA/BF problems, weight and fuel economy plus the remaining carry-over AU body structures such as A-pillar & head to leading edge space, rear door opening widths (esp LWB cars) and passing of the T steering to Falcon.

Without sounding arrogant, if Holden's improvement from VZ to VE is only 50-60% replicated by BA/BF to Orion and new Falc's styling (subjective I know) is as described then the Orion will be the better car, it's just the marketing support that needs to be 100% as equivalent to Holdens to finally rein in Commodores greater sales numbers.

Doesn't sound arrogant to me. Sounds realistic and accurate to me. I think getting to market first is a pretty significant advantage provided that product isn't fatally flawed. Sometimes giving a head start is too big a disadvantage to pull back.

I fully expect VE to be a bigger step forward for Holden then what Orion will be for Ford and that might play a big part in consumer’s minds. I mean FFS the commodore still doesn't have a split fold rear seat.

[WASP]

Looks quite good. Well done Holden. Good news is that when the 2007 Falcon comes out from what I've seen so far it will make the VE look dated rather quickly. Something that the VT-VZ shape managed to cope with rather well.

Peronally I think the new Holden will need to be a ripper if it's going to maintain strong sales in this climat. Ford will definately need to do the same.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Do you often quote people with out reading what was said? Did I say Boss 260? Since when has 220 been referred to as a Boss engine? Do you actually know the Ford product?

Did I say anything about what Ford has done now? Let's forget for an instant that Ford or FPV don't offer tyre pressure monitoring Xenon lights or adjustable suspension just to name a few. HSV look certain to introduce a fully adaptive suspension system, a first for an Australian made car. Now if they use what GM hold the patent for, it is the quickest reacting system in the world, far advanced of those offered by line blocks and valves. Things like HUD have also been mentioned in line with some HSV models. ON PAPER they SOUND exciting.

History has shown us that Holden often get the jump with bringing technology to the market first with Ford being perceived as a follower. That’s an image that Ford has been trying to banish for some time but at what cost? The importance seems to have shifted. It’s no good of introducing technology that no one options or buys just to allow you to claim you were first! That seems to be the case with some of HSV issues right now.

When Ford does introduce similar features to Holden they are inevitably of a better standard and design. That hasn't really helped them on the sales chart though. With VE, Holden haven't cut the corners to the same degree that they historically do. The margin where Ford can come over the top has decreased to the point that the substantial difference between the two products today probably wont exist in the future unless Ford wants to push the price to a point where it is no longer competitive and in this climate in this segment that wont happen.

Those couple of things you had for me, well they aren't relevant. I am however intrigued by the claim that Ford has introduced technology that Holden can only dream of. In this country no technology or very little of it is introduced. We adapt and we follow. The two companies often move in different directions but we are essentially talking about two very big parent companies. Different ideology and strategies dictate those directions and it’s very unlikely the idea of a dream hasn't been considered.

I said I especially like what I am hearing about HSV. That’s my opinion. I stand by what I say. I am extremely eager to see what HSV come up with and if the reality matches the hype. I said I like the idea of getting the drivelines into the current model. It’s very BMW thinking and is a step in removing the “don't buy the first of a new model” car syndrome. That’s my opinion- take it or leave it.

Firstly, in your ealier post you have mentioned the "Dare I say it Boss Saga". I wanted to know what Saga. I have not called the 220 a Boss either, I have questioned the saga you speak of with the Boss, and furthermore mention that both the 260 and 220 (which shares the same block and pistons) have not had problems.

Secondly, your claim that the info I had on the GM V8's not being relavent is delusional at best and frankly idiotic to say the least. Try telling that to the hundreds of thousands of people filing suit against GM for piston slap.

Thirdly, the technology I speak of that Ford has introduced are thus:
Fully electronic auto transmission (Holden have a single solenoid unit)
Self Diagnosing Climate Control units,
OHC engines with Variable Valve timing
Control Blade IRS, and even the self aligning AU IRS
Smartcool for coolant loss
Integrated GPS systems
ZF transmissions (which Holden have only now been able to source)
Stability control

There are more but I couldn't care less. HID headlights aren't a big thing either, and I can refer you to where you can buy a conversion kit for $400.00 including the lamps. That's retail too, for a volume manufacturer like Holden you would be able to buy the kits from $150-250.

As for adaptive suspension, considering it is relatively new on the current big Benz's and BMW's I'd be very surprised if it makes its way onto the VE. You may find it further along in the models but I seriously doubt that they are going to try and recoup their development budget whilst simultaneously throwing all the fruit at their release models. No car manufacturer to date has done that and that is why we had to wait for the BF to get a new auto.

Quite frankly I couldn't care less about your opinion , I was just curious to find out what this "Boss Saga" you speak of was.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by ltd

Quite frankly I couldn't care less about your opinion ,

Fair enough.

[Dazza XLT]

I got some photos! Quality is lacking, as they were taken on my Nokia phone!
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=43996

[FPV]

Originally Posted by ltd

As for adaptive suspension, considering it is relatively new on the current big Benz's and BMW's I'd be very surprised if it makes its way onto the VE. You may find it further along in the models but I seriously doubt that they are going to try and recoup their development budget whilst simultaneously throwing all the fruit at their release models. No car manufacturer to date has done that and that is why we had to wait for the BF to get a new auto.

It has been said on the ls1 forums the name "HSV MRC" has been registered and i think a few other names as well which relate to the magnetic suspension. Audi have introduced a magnetic ride system on the new TT, i don't know if its similar to GM's system though. Back to the magnetic ride suspension, if HSV manage to have the suspension suited to performance applications, then they would have beaten the Cadillac V series development team. It could be a well developed system, or a suspension system thrown into the range for namesake. The STS-V development included consideration for the magna-ride system but was found not suitable and therefore replaced with monotube shockers, which i guess will make an appearance for BF mkII.

[AWD Chaser]

SMH: Holden is believed to be adding cylinder-deactivation technology to its recently-acquired 6.0-litre V8, meaning it can run as a four-cylinder when minimal power is required.

SMH: General Motors product development chief Bob Lutz says the Commodore's anticipated near-two-tonne body is in line with weight gains on many new models as car makers engineer added safety into their vehicles in response to stricter regulations.

SMH: Holden believes buyers are looking for an excuse to come back to the Commodore. We'll know soon enough.

SMH: The next Commodore will have roughly the same size interior as the current model but its exterior dimensions are said to have grown by about 15cm

SMH: In a last-minute cost-cutting attempt consideration was given to taking some equipment out of the cars...."There's no point building the world's best car if no-one buys it," says one Holden insider. "How many people would pay $40,000 for an Executive? Exactly."

Hmmmm....

[JPFS1]

I wouldn't take much notice of name registrations, especially if it was a recent registration. doesn't mean it will be introduced anytime soon.

Ford re-registered its GTHO name in 2002. No sign YET...

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by JEM

I wouldn't take much notice of name registrations, especially if it was a recent registration. doesn't mean it will be introduced anytime soon.

Ford re-registered its GTHO name in 2002. No sign YET...

I know they have been working on it for some time Chris. I don't know anything about registration but I am expecting it to replace or enhance the Ohlin package that has been an option for some time on some HSVs. The manual adjustment was always only going to be a short term solution. HSV have signaled their intention for some time about the direction they will be taking in future models. One was an increased emphasis on torque the other was reducing suspension options through adaptability. There used to be Crennan’s 50 point plan, as opposed to Skaife’s 100 point plan, that to date HSV have been following. It’s just a question of when. If magna ride is what they have up their sleeve and if in fact it has been registered then this system although quick reacting has selection and harshness issues in Caddie form. I know they have done something with the Ohlins option but I was led to believe it followed more along the lines of a recent concept car.

[parawolf]

HSV MRC = Holden Special Vehicles Monthly Recurring Charge...

;-)

[2kool4u]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Typhoon's done the fastest 1/4 mile stock of any Australian sedan ever made. 12.94 @ 108mph. And with 108mph... you can go alot faster then 12.9, there's a better time left in those things.

It will obliterate any 297kW 6.0 HSV at anything you care to name. Even the only thing HSV stayed king of until now - straight line grunt.

Really, 12.9 is ИИИИen fast, but it's not the straight linr grunt HSV wins, when tested by rick bates at BFYB the holden SS was quicker than the Typhoon around the track.

It's a bit strange that a typhoon can pull 12.9 down the quarter but a professional race driver can only manage to get14.01 in it.

[rodderz]

Originally Posted by 2kool4u

Really, 12.9 is ИИИИen fast, but it's not the straight linr grunt HSV wins, when tested by rick bates at BFYB the holden SS was quicker than the Typhoon around the track.

It's a bit strange that a typhoon can pull 12.9 down the quarter but a professional race driver can only manage to get14.01 in it.

Yes but magazine tests are done with G-Tech's, on standard roads, who knows what conditions, and only have probably not long to get used to the car. They are only a guide to compare with other competing cars on the same day with the same testing procedures

[AWD Chaser]

the holden SS was quicker than the Typhoon around the track.

Hmmm....


Anyways, this thread has gotten way off track... this is about the VE, not comparing fords to holdens

[bathurst77]

SMH should be done for false advertising.
They promised full details and pix, instead we get very amateur photochop "guestimates" of what it might look like.
And the information in the artical is full of "should be" "is said to have" "believed to be" etc.
So where they promised us facts and and figures and pics, so we woud KNOW what its all about, we got a fluff piece of rehashes of all the old rumour and guess pix off the net.
And i thought NEWS was supposed to tell you something NEW and they were supposed to report FACTS. Pretty poor journalism from Fairfax. (did GMH pay for this PR)

[Xtreme F6]

http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/ar...f=2&bg=32&pp=0

sorry if its been posted.....and sorry for posting it :

[Aeron]

Should look ok in the flesh I think.

[Deadman]

What's with the ute though? Sedan looks ok, I've never liked the look of the VE styling from the day of the first spy pick (esspecially the longer wheelbase on shorter body), but the ute is just all kinds of wrong... :

I hope it looks better in the flesh for Holden's sake.

[FANTASY]

Holden means a lot to KOREA...

[tex]

That ute is a cross between a Jumbuck and a very large wheel barrow.

What were they thinking ?

[WILDTRAKPX2]

LOL The mods must be getting tired of combining these VE threads.

[TUF514]

MAYBE A LITTLE OFF TOPIC, BUT HERE IS THE NEW STATESMAN.

http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/ar...f=7&bg=24&pp=1

AND HERE IS A 2004 NISSAN MAXIMA......

http://tcimages.net/DisplayImage.aspx?PD=9277445&S=ISS

DONT THEY LOOKS SO SIMILIAR???

[MeestaNob!]

Originally Posted by CDAA

Looks quite good. Well done Holden. Good news is that when the 2007 Falcon comes out from what I've seen so far it will make the VE look dated rather quickly. Something that the VT-VZ shape managed to cope with rather well.

Peronally I think the new Holden will need to be a ripper if it's going to maintain strong sales in this climat. Ford will definately need to do the same.

Can you tell us anything about it, it's proportions etc? A rough idea of when The Great Ford Drip Feed will begin?

[Lukeyson]

Originally Posted by tex

That ute is a cross between a Jumbuck and a very large wheel barrow

LOL well a holden ute and a jumbuck have similar load rating !!

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by MeestaNob!

Can you tell us anything about it, it's proportions etc? A rough idea of when The Great Ford Drip Feed will begin?

Put it this way... The new falcon can be regarded as such an upgrade as EL to AU, just damn good looking!

Mechanically there isnt much wrong with the current falcon so you will see similar chassis design, just refined.

[big_pete]

i think ill wait to comment till i see actual photo's, not bodgy photochops

[Supa R00]

looks like an astra from the front, im gonna wait for the real deal before judging...

[Danny]

Originally Posted by FANTASY

Holden means a lot to KOREA...

If I had a dollar for everytime someone said this....... :

[honer]

VE Commodore.. Please consider !

[WASP]

Originally Posted by MeestaNob!

Can you tell us anything about it, it's proportions etc? A rough idea of when The Great Ford Drip Feed will begin?

Can't say much other than it appears wider and more sculpted than the BF and even VE (from what I've seen). It's a pretty major change appearance wise. I imagine the drip feed will begin shortly after the VE launch just as distraction, but you will have to wait until mid 2007 before you hear something more interesting.:monkes: